Sound Company No Show at a Gig

[bullethead]

I''ve never posted here before, but it seems that all of the comments aren't from around here anyway and basically have zero effects on the company in question. My apologies, I should have looked at the locations of the members that were responding to the post. I'm preaching to the choir here, I'm back to the local venues and forums. It also seems like we have a hard time being taken seriously here, one poster accuses us of slander, others assume that because we've never been here before we must be lying, after all, our post count proves it. I'll use this Harmony Central if I feel it can be beneficial to me, but you'd better believe I will never post any negative comments about anyone or anything on here ever again. It's not worth the backlash we've gotten.

[6Imzadi]

Considering that this online (or any) forum is seen by many (thousands, maybe more) people and frequented by many industry members from weekend warriors to manufacturers; Words well chosen and/or proof as in this case would be more constructive for those who in the future may find themselves in the same boat doing a search for answers.

[witesol]

I''ve never posted here before, but it seems that all of the comments aren't from around here anyway and basically have zero effects on the company in question. My apologies, I should have looked at the locations of the members that were responding to the post. I'm preaching to the choir here, I'm back to the local venues and forums. It also seems like we have a hard time being taken seriously here, one poster accuses us of slander, others assume that because we've never been here before we must be lying, after all, our post count proves it. I'll use this Harmony Central if I feel it can be beneficial to me, but you'd better believe I will never post any negative comments about anyone or anything on here ever again. It's not worth the backlash we've gotten.

I don't see the acusations, post count=lying and "backlash" you've gotten.

 

what did you expect? there's no #2 post from the OP. You come on and explain some things, again first post.

upon reading this, here is my question: how did a gig with an expectation of 350 attendees turn into one with 9000? that seems ridiculously odd to me. I've been wrong at guessing how many folks were going to show up to a gig, everyone overestimates. Most bands exaggerate. 9000 x $30ticket price you mentioned= Hmmm, something odd. Big difference between $900something and $27K. At a certain point when like 1000 folks showed up and still no sound, I would have figured out how to get someone/something there. Could it be that this 20x underestimation in attendance had something to do with the no show?

[agedhorse]

Uhhhhh... that would be a $270k gross gate. Something is seriously wrong here if you were really planning for 350 and got 9000. Would you have expected the provider to provide sound for 350 people or 9000? Are you in fact able to draw 9k attendance at $30 ticket? If so, why would you possibly spec sound for 350 folks then. Maybe the sound company smelled a fish and the gig was NOT as represented?

 

As in many cases, all the important information is between the lines.

[bullethead]

LOL, we were to play in a tent for an exclusive party of 350 people from 3M. The event that was going on was open to the public for $30 a ticket. We were never supposed to play for 9000 people, thats how many people showed up, and it's also the venue we were hoping to playa again, this time without the tent. You're real smart, and I especially like the Pink Panther "I got it all figured out" tone. Once again, I'm thrown under the bus, analyzed, all because I got the shaft? This whole thing is about what "could" have happened. We could have played the venue for the first time, we could have possibly impressed the owner of the racetrack, we could have possibly played there on weekends when they draw thousands of people, there is no deceit going on here, only what you conjur up with your mathematical conclusions. The bottom line is we got stiffed. Thats what this all started out as. A few of you blew right past that point and tried to become regular detectives.

 

As I mentioned before, the guy wanted to get on the guest list because the price of admission at the gate was $30 a head. There were a couple celebrities at this event, which made it huge for attendance, huge for us. We never got the chance to try to impress. Why I'm explaining myself to some guy from Southern Cal is beyond me. You're smart, you'll wrestle a lie out of me yet, I imagine.

[agedhorse]

Nobody is playing "smart". What we have here is some real BIG inconsistencies along with a provider who potentially stiffed you.

 

9000 people is a pretty significant departure from 350, and if this info is screwed up I would expect other little details to be screwed up as well. This is just how I look at things.

 

So were you playing to 350 or 9,000?

[bullethead]

My last post didn't say that we were contracted to play for 350 in the tent? Everyone at that venue could have heard us in that tent, the owner could have seen us in that tent. In order to get into the ractrack you had to pay $30. Thats why the guy requested his assistant be on the guest list. Should I say 350 again, or could I just ask you to scroll up? Are you drinking right now?

 

Where are the BIG inconsistencies? If I was this guys competitor, would I go to such lengths, and to a crowd of people that will never use him anyway because they live across the country? Like I said before, and you can scroll up if you don't get it this time, bottom line is what could have happened. When I offered to scan the contract and post it, why go thru the trouble if I'm lying? Why is this whole thing about our band telling lies? Is it impossible to think that we might be telling the truth? I see you said thats how you look at things, and that you expect things to be screwed up. Why jump on the forums, if you're just going to get all worked up and type in caps? I'm going to lay off of you, your blood pressure is going to cause something to burst. I don't dig high strung people anyway, and I'd bet that if I looked up most of those 14, 991 posts of yours I'd find enough negativity in them to create a forum on depression.

[agedhorse]

 

We were never supposed to play for 9000 people, thats how many people showed up.

 

 

So 9000 people showed up and how would you have played for only 350 of them?

 

I'm just pointing out that even with something this simple there's confusion. It's possible that there was similar confusion with the company you contracted with as well.

 

I wouldn't clarify my posts as negative. Realistic perhaps, but negative only in the eyes of those who read them that way which I can't do anything about.

 

If you don't like the comments or the attitude you got here, perhaps this isn't the place to hang out? I also suggest that you and your guitar player came to a forum you haven't been to and bad-mouthed a company without a reasonable explaination as to why it will be beneficial. I agree with Craig that until we know more about you (ie have a history and get the flavor of where you are coming from) initial bad-rap posts are not appropriate. Many forums don'y allow new posters to post driectly but the posts must first be reviewed by a moderator who decided if it's appropriate and reasonable.

 

How about thinking about your initial approach and maybe reconsider how you are going about this?

[bullethead]

This is the end of the line for me. I told you the tent party was to be our venue and it held 350 people. The racetrack brought in 9000 people. We were never supposed to play in front of all 9000, regardless, they were outside the tent. 350 were in, 9000 were out. I'd write it a different way, but I'm all out of different twists on those numbers. I'm not making it up, Dale Earnhardt Jr. was there among others. If I said I didn't care if you believed me or not, I'd be lying. Obviously I'm continuing to post, but your constant questioning really makes this whole thing a drag. I admitted earlier that I had come to the wrong place to voice my opinion, that wasn't good enough for you. You had to pick the new guy apart, somehow I must be lying, it just has to be so. Every number, every word is scrutinized, as if you have a binding contract with this outfit and they're supposed to run sound for you next week. This forum will never be seen by the guy or his partner, so as I said before, I'm preaching to the choir. It was a mistake to post here, and you showed me that by constantly calling me a liar and questioning everything I said. I'm almost thinking by some freak of nature you are related to this guy or something. After all, why else would you try so hard to disprove every single thing we said? You've been successful in running me off of HC, forums are cool, but in this case, I just can't continue to repeat myself when the text is only a scroll wheel away.......

[Zeromus-X]

 

the thread would probably have been removed because such comments can be seriously harmful to the company's reputation (who is not there to defend itself...)

 

 

Last I checked, we weren't under any obligation to be careful not to harm a company's reputation. If someone gets screwed and they want to warn others, that's what a public forum is for. This isn't being moderated by one company in particular, it's not biased towards anything... that's what is nice about this place. Not to point any fingers, but I've disputed at least two of Craigv's moderator "decisions" in the past on this forum, and will continue to do so when the basis of it appears to be "to protect some company we have no reason to be doing so to". If someone starts bashing Musician's Friend and the MF admins want to come in and squash the thread, by all means... it's their party and they're free to boot whoever they want. That's not the case here.

 

No hard feelings please, Craigv... just playing it as it goes. Your "I waited 10 hours" reply means nothing, IMO... to a company who has never heard of this place, they may have existed for 20 years before knowing about a post concerning them. Hell, I'm here pretty much constantly while at work when there's nothing else going on, and I've got a window open a lot of the time at home while I'm doing other things, and I still didn't see the thread until it was edited!

 

So anyway, OK, we've had a few followup posts now. Can we have the name of the company? Or what is the "threshhold" of followups required before we can get some more info?

[bullethead]

The name of the company probably means nothing in the big scope of things, no one outside of 100 miles would need them for anything, the name is. I think we've posted enough responses to validate our claim, if that's indeed what it takes. This forum will likely produce no lack of business for this outfit, this is a national forum from what I can tell. I've already posted Buyer Beware messages on every local forum I can think of, none of it badmouths the company, I simply stated what happened. Here's what I found when I looked up the definition of FORUM:

fo

[Scodiddly]

You're missing an important part of the "forum" concept - you post the company's name, but you don't seem willing to take responsibility by posting your own name.

 

And aside from that, if you have a contract you can take them to court. Posting in every forum you can think of would likely make your case in court worse, if you could be countersued for slander.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Last I checked, we weren't under any obligation to be careful not to harm a company's reputation. If someone gets screwed and they want to warn others, that's what a public forum is for. This isn't being moderated by one company in particular, it's not biased towards anything... that's what is nice about this place. Not to point any fingers, but I've disputed at least two of Craigv's moderator "decisions" in the past on this forum, and will continue to do so when the basis of it appears to be "to protect some company we have no reason to be doing so to". If someone starts bashing Musician's Friend and the MF admins want to come in and squash the thread, by all means... it's their party and they're free to boot whoever they want. That's not the case here. No hard feelings please, Craigv... just playing it as it goes. Your "I waited 10 hours" reply means nothing, IMO... to a company who has never heard of this place, they may have existed for 20 years before knowing about a post concerning them. Hell, I'm here pretty much constantly while at work when there's nothing else going on, and I've got a window open a lot of the time at home while I'm doing other things, and I still didn't see the thread until it was edited! So anyway, OK, we've had a few followup posts now. Can we have the name of the company? Or what is the "threshhold" of followups required before we can get some more info?

 

 

There are no hard feelings...I've never met anyone here, so it can't be 'personal'. Folks will disagree, and nobody can make everyone happy.

 

This forum is not the BBB, it's not intended to be a place to air grievances with businesses. Discussing the merits and pitfalls of gear is one thing, but telling others to avoid a specific company because of a problem that really can't be confirmed gets us into what we have right now...bickering between members that's really serving no useful purpose. Since the sound company isn't here to relate their side, or respond at all, nothing can be done by them to improve their service.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Seems to me like I've done EXACTLY what is defined.

 

 

You've missed an important point; all the definitions here are for *public* forums. HC is a privately owned website. It is open to anyone who can follow a few simple rules, but the fact remains that the rules do exist, and HC can run things any way they see fit.

 

Regarding your grievance, since once again the company's name was listed (was I not clear the first time I deleted it?????), we've got exactly what I was trying to avoid...an argument among members, and an unsubstantiable claim made anonymously about a specific business.

 

There are two possible courses that this thread could have taken from the original post: It could have been a general discussion about no-shows and how to deal with them (the OP did ask for other's tales), or a specific bash in an attempt to steer business from the company. The former is the only acceptable path.

[Phil Clark]

Bullethead, consider that you may still be too close to this situation to be considered objective. Also consider that should the company you are naming find out about the posts here, and the moderators did not do anything about what can be perceived (from one point of view) as slanderous statements, it could make Harmony Central libel as well.

 

This is a privately owned forum for discussing sound, sound problems, and how to fix and avoid sound issues. It is not a personal forum to bash a company for being a no-show. If you want to warn people in general terms about covering yourself with contracts and the like, this is the place. If you want to simply rant about how much the sound company wronged you, start a blog.

 

And in other forums I am a member of, questioning a moderators judgement has resulted in the user being banned. So in that regard you are being given a lot of latitude here. Keep that in mind as well.

[agedhorse]

There's always 2 sides to each story. Not hearing the other side makes me skeptical. It's not that I don't believe the OP's, it's that I see plenty of opportunity for honest confusion and misunderstanding.

 

Being defensive about this possibility, in the absence if the other side if the story, is just a part of human nature.

[bullethead]

I don't sit easy with the replies I've gotten, so go ahead and ban me. Did you really think I was chomping at the bit to stay on here anyway? Your forum is full of people of the likes that I would never hang out with anyway, in person or electronically. The God-Like threats that periodically come from the members and the moderator are laughable, as if HS is somehow tied into my everyday life and I can't live without it. I will continue to post my issues locally, everyday and without remorse or fear of liability, especially for slander. If this guy didn't show up for the gig, what makes me think he would show up if he were summoned to conciliation court? The name of the company is GREAT RIVER SOUND AND LIGHT out of Maple Grove, MN. Remember it, forget it, choke on it, I don't care.

[bullethead]

..

[bullethead]

BAN AWAY! STAY AWAY FROM GREAT RIVER SOUND & LIGHT, MAPLE GROVE, MN

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Bullethead, consider that you may still be too close to this situation to be considered objective. Also consider that should the company you are naming find out about the posts here, and the moderators did not do anything about what can be perceived (from one point of view) as slanderous statements, it could make Harmony Central libel as well. This is a privately owned forum for discussing sound, sound problems, and how to fix and avoid sound issues. It is not a personal forum to bash a company for being a no-show. If you want to warn people in general terms about covering yourself with contracts and the like, this is the place. If you want to simply rant about how much the sound company wronged you, start a blog. And in other forums I am a member of, questioning a moderators judgement has resulted in the user being banned. So in that regard you are being given a lot of latitude here. Keep that in mind as well.

 

 

To clarify some good points made here:

 

HC would generally not be held responsible for comments made here, as there have been legal precedents set in this regard. But that doesn't prevent anyone from bringing a losing lawsuit, nor does it truly protect the website or MF. The idea is to prevent this sort of problem from the start, before things get out of hand.

 

Banning members who argue or question moderator decisions has happened in HC forums. It hasn't happened in the Live Sound forum. I'm not saying you can't question my or gearmike's decisions here; I'm saying to do it in a private message. If this can't be respected, 'timeouts' can be the result. We don't need any of this, as this has typically always been a very well-behaved group of people. I'm not infallible, and I won't be in the future. Just please show us and the rest of the forum the modicum of respect of using PM when you feel like pointing this out to me:D.

[agedhorse]

Looks like your local Craig's List has removed your post... there's always 2 sides to every story.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

BAN AWAY! STAY AWAY FROM

 

 

Now you're just making a fool of yourself. I never threatened to ban you.

[StrangeC]

As the original poster, I am happy to clarify the questions stated. First, I was a member of HC with an e-mail account that has since been defunct, so I created a new name to match my Gear Page name, where I average over a post every other day. I am also Rick on the ZTalk Forum.

 

There was indeed a written contract. Here is the text from that contract:

"

 

This document provides for a contractual agreement between , and the noted party below. will provide full audio and light services for the named date below. will provide transport, set-up, and tear-down for noted contractual fees. All equipment is owned by . and will be provided in complete working order.

 

Contact: Rick XXXXXXX

Saturday Thursday, July 12th

Day contract, 4pm-6:30pm show

Address of event:

New Richmond, WI

 

Contracted fee $275

Full payment due 7/12/07.

 

Equipment Provided:

Allen & Heath GL2400

Lexicon MPX100

Alesis Midiverb 4 Effects processor (x2)

Alesis 3630 gate/compressor (x4)

DBX driverack PA

DBX 2231 1/3 octave EQ

Behringer Ultragraph pro stereo 31 band EQ (x2)

Crown XTI1000 (x4)

Crown XTI4000 (x4)

JBL MRX 528 dual 18 inch subwoofer (x4)

JBL MRX 525 dual 15 inch speaker (x4)

Mackie FR 800 power amp (x2)

EV 12 inch two-way wedge monitor (x4)

JBL Eon10 monitor (x2)

24 channel 100

[Al Poulin]

Excellent and well written post StrangeC. We now have more info and can more easily understand the circomstances of what happenned to you guys.... Let us know if you manage to contact the company or if they call you back. Since you do have a contract, it may be possible for you to get compensation for the company's failure to provide the services it was supposed to under contract - although it would probably involve going to court. Best wishes, Al

[witesol]

perhaps a better way to have done this would have been to put all the details down first and ask anyone to PM the OP if they live in the area.

 

what strikes me about this is all that stuff for $275? whew.. I'd bring two speakers on a stick and powered box, couple monitors...and still complain at the end of the night