Bass in monitor question.

[notlimah]

When I play at church, they do not have subs so Iplay through my bass amp. We have tried to run the bass through the house system, and it works okay, but the bass in the monitors sound like total crap. The monitors are the yamaha SM112's, and I think they sound pretty good for everything else. The problem is, when I play bass through them, I have to turn it way up on the board and it sounds like an AM radio. I tried a few things but nothing seems to help.

1 -Run bass into DI box then to the board.

2 -Run bass through the amp, use the XLR out to the board

3 -Changing EQ at the board, all possible combinations (4 band EQ).

4 -Tried a bass with active pickups as well as passive.

 

The really odd thing to me, we made a recording one day for the singer to take to job interviews. My bass was going into the DI box and then to the board. The bass I heard at my monitor was awful. But, when the sound tech played the recording back, through the same monitor, the bass sounded great.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on what I should look for that would make the monitor suck so bad. The church has plans to purchase a sub and run everything through the house, and as much as I don't want to carry my amp back and forth every week, I can't take listening to that monitor.

[Weathered]

Do you have a graphic EQ on the monitor? Do vocals sound fine?

 

Keep in mind that the monitor isn't going to be reproducing the low end as nicely as a studio monitor.

 

Personally, when I send bass through the wedge, I almost always cut 80 hZ (to keep the extreme low end under control), may add a slight boost at 250-400 hZ, and may boost 3k to add some top end definition. I don't usually don't have to do much.

[Gadget]

When you are listening live to your bass in the monitor, it may be that the aux send is pre-EQ. Additionally, the channel EQ is probably fattening up the signal for the mains and recording. When the recording is played back through the monitor you are hearing the EQ'd mix.

 

That said, most monitors I have experienced have had a weak bass response, and that is probably desirable so it doesn't bleed into mics.

[Kevin T]

SM112's are OK for vocal But very poor for bass or any low freq content . use you amp as a monitor . How does it sound in the Mains?

[Gary in NJ]

Personally, I'd never run the bass through the monitors. Why? Because bass is unidirectional. If there is a bass amp on stage, there's the monitor. Even if you were going direct, there'd be enough bass coming from the subs to cover the sound.

 

A well run monitor circuit is limited to about 100hz to reduce subsonics from making their way into the mix.

[Weathered]

 

Personally, I'd never run the bass through the monitors. Why? Because bass is unidirectional. If there is a bass amp on stage, there's the monitor. If if you were going direct, there'd be enough bass coming from the subs to cover the sound. A well run monitor circuit is limited to about 100hz to reduce subsonics from making their way into the mix.

 

 

It really depends on the stage. I've worked with bands that have a very high stage volume, and the drummer or guitarist may want bass in their monitor. I've also worked with bands that have very low (under 80 dB) stage volumes where they want bass in the wedge - just enough cut to hear the note, regardless of the fundamental.

[notlimah]

SM112's are OK for vocal But very poor for bass or any low freq content . use you amp as a monitor . How does it sound in the Mains?

 

They have 4 JBL's flown from the ceiling. Not sure of the model, permanent install speakers, they don't have great bass response up there. The bass amp carries 90% of the load the audience hears.

 

Do you have a graphic EQ on the monitor? Do vocals sound fine?

 

Yes, a 31 band DBX, the curve looks like this, A great big frown.

 

The goal is to add subs and not have the need to have an extra amp on stage. I am just hoping for some better sound

 

Jeff

[agedhorse]

Before adding subs, how about a realistic eq... or try bypassing the eq and see if the sound improves. IF the sound guy is cutting the low frequencies on the eq, how would subs help???

[notlimah]

I should have been more clear. The EQ I described was on the monitors. But that brings up another question. There is another EQ for FOH, but that also goes through a Driverack 260. I will have to look how thats set-up on thursday night. Is it normal to have a 31 channel EQ in the same chain as the Driverack 260?

 

I messed with the the 4 band EQ on the board but didn't think about the 31 channel after the board, Doh!

 

We had a proffesional sound company come in and fly the speakers and reset the system this fall, but we didn't try the bass direct until after they were gone. Is it possible the monitor EQ is set that way to eliminate feedback and I shouldn't mess with it? I know they have this piano mic that is a PIA when it comes to feed back.

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

[Zon5string]

Are you not hearing your rig? Why do YOU need bass in the monitors?

[twostone]

Not expert here but when I ran bass thru some 12" wedges pretty much sucked then got a 15" and wow what a difference. I'm sure most of it has to do with the frequency range and box tuning.

[moody]

 

Personally, I'd never run the bass through the monitors. Why? Because bass is unidirectional. If there is a bass amp on stage, there's the monitor. Even if you were going direct, there'd be enough bass coming from the subs to cover the sound. A well run monitor circuit is limited to about 100hz to reduce subsonics from making their way into the mix.

 

 

I disagree. Going direct the bass on stage from the subs is boomy and muddy, the highs go through the main speakers which are directional. Without at least the highs going through a monitor you can not hear yourself.

 

I personally run direct through an EV 12" Wedge, hi-passed at 80hz plenty of bass for my use on stage, I run bass to the drummers wedge as well and the guitarists have enough for their own use.

[Hawkeye]

 

Personally, I'd never run the bass through the monitors. Why? Because bass is unidirectional. If there is a bass amp on stage, there's the monitor. Even if you were going direct, there'd be enough bass coming from the subs to cover the sound. A well run monitor circuit is limited to about 100hz to reduce subsonics from making their way into the mix.

 

 

Just a point of clarification, below 100hz bass actually is omnidirectional out of most cabinets that are able to reproduce it. If you're using the lo-freq roll-off and only 100hz and up is coming out of the monitor, then yes, the frequencies above that point would be subject to the directional characteristics of the floor wedge in exactly the same manner as other instruments.

 

Most acoustic instruments (except for horns) are pretty much omnidirectional. Despite it's being a "treble" instrument, cymbal projects outwards in all directions. It's shape causes the sound to spread out spherically or omnidirectionally. A triangle or wood block are also omnidirectional. It's only the dispersion characteristics of the mechanical drivers used in speaker boxes that make them directional or not. Dome treble drivers tend to have highly directional characteristics ("beaming"), hence the use of a horn for increased dispersion.

 

I've found the FOH "subs as monitors" to be highly undesirable for a bass player like myself. Depending on where I was playing up or down the neck, from my vantage point notes were either disappearing or booming and the perceived volume from the stage position changed a lot depending on which enclosure the note was coming out of.

 

It probably sounded a lot more coherent in the auditorium as the mains and subs were theoretically balanced by the sound tech, but from the stage it was a mess. I guess I've never played anywhere that had pitch-accurate nice subs either. The stages I've played on have had systems where the low end had a boomy, "one-note" quality that sounded very indistinct in the bottom (like a car subwoofer). Great for the kick drum, not so great for bass guitar.

 

I also, much prefer to use a bass amplifier as the monitor. The consistency of output throughout the entire frequency range of the instrument gives me the accurate feedback I need to play with proper dynamics. I can set up my rig to be balanced to the volume of the monitor and harmony is restored.

 

Even a very inexpensive bass combo works very well as a bass monitor. I use Genz Benz amps which are some of the most articulate and accurate sounding amps around, but even my little Fender Bassman 150 has enough oomph for that job, supplies a nice clean DI out, and has a tilt-back cabinet so you can aim it right where you want. It only cost me $330 new. There aren't a lot of full frequency monitor wedges around that can do the job that combo can do for that price.

[agedhorse]

Yes, a DriveRack and an outboard 31 band eq is quite common, keeps lay-folks from making unintended changes to the driverack while still giving them some control to screw things up... that are then easy to undo without stepping through a bunch of menus.

[notlimah]

Thanks for the reply's.

 

Practice was canceled tonight so I will try again sunday.

 

But back to original question. I play through monitor A, reguardless of how the 31 band EQ for that monitor channel is set and the bass sounds terrible. At the same time, the soundman is recording from the mains out. He then plays back what he recorded through the very same monitor A, with the same EQ setting and it sounds pretty good. Not great, but way better than the live stuff.

 

I'll look again Sunday, but I don't get it.

 

BTW: I don't need much volume on stage, I just want to stop hauling my amp around. And the addition of subs, would allow the soundman to have control of the bass rather than me with my amp. Now I'm normally a control freak, but to better serve the overall sound it would make sense to me to have a sub in the system and the soundman mix everything.

 

 

Jeff

[Gary in NJ]

 

I disagree. Going direct the bass on stage from the subs is boomy and muddy, the highs go through the main speakers which are directional.

 

 

And I agree with what you (and Haweye) have said. I didn't say that a sub/top would provide good bass response, but It would do a better job then a stage monitor.

 

Nothing beats a bass amp on stage. That's true for the entire band, not just the bass player.

[Alan Roberts]

If your bass has passive electronics, then 'd suggest a preamp of some kind before running to the board.

[moody]

 

And I agree with what you (and Haweye) have said. I didn't say that a sub/top would provide good bass response, but It would do a better job then a stage monitor. Nothing beats a bass amp on stage. That's true for the entire band, not just the bass player.

 

 

I hate to say that I again disagree with you.

 

A good monitor, that can handle the range will work just as well as a good bass amp. Except for being able to aim at the head I don't see a difference between a single 15" bass cab and a single 15" wedge. I know that I prefer a good single 12" wedge that I can aim at my head and get the definition of the notes to a single 15" bass cab that sits on the ground aiming at the feet. Sure the bass is there but the definition is what you need to be able to play accurately.

 

If I had a stupidly big bass rig that I could get up to ear level then I would do that, but for portability that's just impossible. The subs carry the low end out the front but the wedge is what I use for the definition on stage.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

And the addition of subs, would allow the soundman to have control of the bass rather than me with my amp. Now I'm normally a control freak, but to better serve the overall sound it would make sense to me to have a sub in the system and the soundman mix everything. Jeff

 

I hear you loud and clear: You're tired of hauling around a heavy bass rig... & reading between the lines (and knowing myself all too well): all that other stuff about giving up control of your sound to somebody else (that's willing to supply the beef) is just convenient justification that sounds good to laypeople. As a bass player and a soundman... over the past 30+ years working both sides of the board I've found it's extremely rare that the soundperson needs more control over the bass than that which a tasteful bass player offers.

 

If packing the tonnage is getting to you... have a look at the new lightweight Genz Benz Shuttle bass stuff... plenty of punch that won't eat your lunch:

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/GenzBenz-Shuttle-600-Watt-Lightweight-Bass-Amp?sku=482110

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

I hate to say that I again disagree with you. A good monitor, that can handle the range will work just as well as a good bass amp. Except for being able to aim at the head I don't see a difference between a single 15" bass cab and a single 15" wedge.

 

Do you play bass?

[moody]

 

Do you play bass?

 

 

Why yes, yes I do. I play bass and run sound in my current band

 

I run a single EV 12" + horn wedge on stage, not sure of the model but it's a horn over woofer configuration and rather large cabs, with a fair but not ridiculous amount of bass through it. I run about the same amount of bass to the drummers wedge (same EV 12"). In both cases we are right in line with the wedges and they are aimed directly at our heads. We aren't a ridiculously loud band but we aren't soft either. Bass also goes to front of house with subs of course. I haven't needed to put bass through the other wedges at all but I would if it were needed (all my wedges are capable of pretty decent bass response).

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

Why yes, yes I do. I play bass and run sound in my current band I run a single EV 12" + horn wedge on stage, not sure of the model but it's a horn over woofer configuration and rather large cabs, with a fair but not ridiculous amount of bass through it. I run about the same amount of bass to the drummers wedge (same EV 12"). In both cases we are right in line with the wedges and they are aimed directly at our heads. We aren't a ridiculously loud band but we aren't soft either. Bass also goes to front of house with subs of course. I haven't needed to put bass through the other wedges at all but I would if it were needed (all my wedges are capable of pretty decent bass response).

 

I'm speechless.

 

I couldn't function without my Ampeg 8-10 rig or 6-10 Trace rig... regardless of the SPL. It's probably a tone thing. I've attempted what you're doing... but it always resulted in something that was completely lackluster.

 

And nobody ever bitches about my volume except for one soundperson I've worked with... who bitched just as much when my bass rig was completely off and my bass was unplugged... which was when I took that formula to that inflection point and proved to myself that I wasn't part of that soundperson's problem.

 

Besides... there's the practical standpoints of:

 

1) What do you lean your guitar against during breaks? and:

 

2) What do you do when the lead guitarist is gone after the last set and you're suppose to busy yourself packing out your bass rig (oh that's right... there's the PA that needs to be tore down and packed into the truck).

[Dogoth]

Firstly, most monitors are not really made to reproduce that much low freq information accurately (especialy a 12" box). Just look at the size of your bass cabinet and the size of the wedge and this should give you an idea.

 

I'm wondering if the FOH guy is adding some extra compression and EQ to your strip (I usualy would) before it's mixed into the recording that you hear. That may be why it sounds better to you through the same speaker. The problem is you're hearing it in a mix. If you used that much compression back at you as you play you might not really like how your instrument responds and could still be dissatisfied.

 

Stick with using your amp as your monitor (you gotta pay a lot of money for a monitor rig that will handle bottom as good as a bass amp).

[moody]

 

I'm speechless. I couldn't function without my Ampeg 8-10 rig or 6-10 Trace rig... regardless of the SPL. It's probably a tone thing. I've attempted what you're doing... but it always resulted in something that was completely lackluster.

 

 

The simple fact is I've never had an Ampeg or a Trace, and never had any mulitple of 10" cabinets. My main bass specific rig (the one I take to rehearsals) is a single 15" in a TL type cabinet with a power amp and a washburn bass pre-amp. It gets a sound I'm pleased with, regardless of whether it's through the 15" or through a wedge.

 

Maybe if I was brought up on large valve amps I might sing a different tune, the point however for me is that a 12" wedge gets the sound I need to hear on stage to play well.

 

(PS, I'm still considering gutting a fender super twin into a head and running it with a 4x10, but It's not a serious consideration).

[witesol]

instead of having the church buy subs just have them buy a bass amp so you can walk in and play. Then take you out of the monitors. Since when does everyone care that they can hear the bass player that well? Or, since when can't you hear a reasonable bass amp everywhere on a church stage? The churches I work generally have backline. That's a lot less costly than an amp, Xover and subs. $a 500 combo, done. Can hardly get one sub for that. Are the mains two pairs of 15 +horn cabs?