buying a distro

[kevinnem]

The TT is NOT a standard legal connector for non rec vehicle use, in fact it's listed for this purpose only. It's not a NEMA format, and the NEMA style non-twist would be a NEMA 5-30. I do not know why Crown uses this connector. The NEMA L5-30 is a very common connector, and universally available everywhere. The L-14 should be broken out to L-5's at the point of use. I do not think it's even possible to get a UL listing on a product with a L-14 and a dropped leg. There's no standard, which leg do you use, how do you breaker it, break it out etc. All L14's must be protected by a 2 pole breaker with common trip. So when 1 leg fails the other is shut down. It's a code reqt. in both US & Canada. The L14 should not share a neutral with a dimmed lighting load, bad practice that can cause hum. Power amps must be supplied from a circuit breaker protected by a branch breaker of no greater than 20 amps (15 amps for CSA listed products) unless specifically listed for use and provided with a connector for use with a larger branch circuit. This is commonly ignored and when there is a failure it can be more severe. The authorities are starting to crack down on this. For good reason. Kevin, you need to trust me on this. You are seeing only a very small part of the picture. I deal with UL and CSA regs. all the time in my power system design work.

 

 

I am trying to see the biggest picture possible, and that is the root of my comments.

 

I don't think UL listing is a concern fo ruse here, as the distro its self is not UL listed.

 

I do trust you Andy, your a freaking genius, but I think because you have so much knowlage at your disposial you don't see issues that other people see. How many of these conectors do you build your self? ... all of them right, so swapping out end and re-wireing something useing these rare conections is not a big deal for you. However, in the context of the O.P. - are we to expect him to reqire, and build his own conectors? Certinly not. We are doing a dis-service to him to recomend something that will need further modificaion in the future , as it is clear that the budget for this has been set up as a one time cost, and the OP is not expecting to have to hire an electician even 3 months to rewire different conections on to it.

 

My issue with the sugestion of the l5-30 connection is that this conection is of no use to him. He has no gear that uses it. He is trying to get a square peg in a round hole and you are sugesting a triangle solution. THE L5 DOESN'T SOLVE HIS PROBLEM! HE STILL CAN'T PLUG IN THE AMP! - and that was the whole point.

 

Further you say the "l5-30 is a very common conector and availble everywhere" Completely wrong. 99.999% of the "common folk" will go their entire lives with out ever haveing seen or even known of this conection.

 

1) The most popular conection is the 15 amp u ground. Any one can use this.

2) Second most popular for "higher power' sitations is the 50 amp range. Most people recognise this from use of electric stoves.

3) After this all bets are off, but in my opinion the industry the L14-30 is popular to drive amp racks, and is clearly the choice when you are useing mostly 50 amp range, and distribiting in to 2 or more amp racks.

 

 

 

The more and more this discussion goes on, proves the point. There is no way the OP is following even 1/2 of what is being said at this point.

 

If the L14-30 sugestion I made is a no starter, Use the 20 amp "converter" your brother has, and don't run it hard in to 2 ohms. and go on with life. Don't install the tt-30 unless you are SURE you will be useing that amp ALOT

[MXDAD]

The TT is NOT a standard legal connector for non rec vehicle use, in fact it's listed for this purpose only. It's not a NEMA format, and the NEMA style non-twist would be a NEMA 5-30. I do not know why Crown uses this connector.

 

 

Regardless of its intended usage if it meets crepage and clearance rules it can be certified under the units UL rating correct? Maybe they took a chance on what they thought would be the next in connector evolution. Just a guess of course.

 

I

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Yes, both the Crown MA-3600's and MA-5000's I purchased came new out of the box with the TT-30 cord ends. Also included factory packed with the amps were Pass & Seymour model 3830 30A 125VAC "trailer receptacles". The TT-30 cordends on the amplifier power cords were molded on the cord, with these words embossed on the cord ends: MHRV ALBION, IN 30 A. 125 V. Additional information possibly of interest to those who might change the cord end to something more conventional: The AC power cord on the amplifiers is 10 AWG 3/C Type SOW-A with an over-all outside jacket diameter of approx. 0.635" (requiring a fairly large cable size capacity cord end if retrofitting). I believe the conductors within the AC power cord are color coded: Green: Ground Brown: Load Blue: Neutral

 

 

Mark, thanks for the answer and complete info (as usual!!!). If you have one of these monsters available to see, is there a UL listing on the back panel? This has really piqued my curiosity to know whether UL was listing units sold with unlisted cordsets. From reading all of of Don's tribulations in getting the Peavey Distro listed, I recall them being very particular to the point of anal regarding exactly which cordset was being used.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I am trying to see the biggest picture possible, and that is the root of my comments. I don't think UL listing is a concern fo ruse here, as the distro its self is not UL listed. I do trust you Andy, your a freaking genius, but I think because you have so much knowlage at your disposial you don't see issues that other people see. How many of these conectors do you build your self? ... all of them right, so swapping out end and re-wireing something useing these rare conections is not a big deal for you. However, in the context of the O.P. - are we to expect him to reqire, and build his own conectors? Certinly not. We are doing a dis-service to him to recomend something that will need further modificaion in the future , as it is clear that the budget for this has been set up as a one time cost, and the OP is not expecting to have to hire an electician even 3 months to rewire different conections on to it. My issue with the sugestion of the l5-30 connection is that this conection is of no use to him. He has no gear that uses it. He is trying to get a square peg in a round hole and you are sugesting a triangle solution. THE L5 DOESN'T SOLVE HIS PROBLEM! HE STILL CAN'T PLUG IN THE AMP! - and that was the whole point. Further you say the "l5-30 is a very common conector and availble everywhere" Completely wrong. 99.999% of the "common folk" will go their entire lives with out ever haveing seen or even known of this conection. 1) The most popular conection is the 15 amp u ground. Any one can use this. 2) Second most popular for "higher power' sitations is the 50 amp range. Most people recognise this from use of electric stoves. 3) After this all bets are off, but in my opinion the industry the L14-30 is popular to drive amp racks, and is clearly the choice when you are useing mostly 50 amp range, and distribiting in to 2 or more amp racks. The more and more this discussion goes on, proves the point. There is no way the OP is following even 1/2 of what is being said at this point. If the L14-30 sugestion I made is a no starter, Use the 20 amp "converter" your brother has, and don't run it hard in to 2 ohms. and go on with life. Don't install the tt-30 unless you are SURE you will be useing that amp ALOT

 

 

Kevin, the problem we have is in making recommendations that may be convenient, but not safe or legal for the user to employ. It's a catch-22, and it's due in no small part to Crown building an amp that's too big for 120v power as commonly provided. Neither the TT-30 nor the L5-30 nor the L14-30 are common to the average person. But neither is running SR gear, especially big-power amps like the Crown Macro's. AFAIC that's the big leagues, and the OP needs to step up his game and learn how to properly and safely get power to his amp(s). Or hire someone who can do this work for him.

 

I'm not sure why you state the L5-30 is uncommon, but not mention that the L14-30 is just as unusual for "common folk". Both are almost never used for household applications. About the only home use for either is portable gensets, and both are indeed quite commonly available at big box home centers, and in ANY electrical supply house, which is something any person can locate in their area. If you live where there's electric power, there will be electricians, and supply houses to serve them. And they'll have any cord end you desire.

 

We all want to help the OP, but it's important that we recommend doing things in the safest and most "legal" way possible, before offering unusual or compromised workarounds. ANY electrical thread is a problem for me, because I really don't want someone getting into any form of trouble due to following advice given here. If I have to fall to one side or the other, I will always fall to the safe and legal course that is at the expense of cost, convenience and specialized knowledge. The OP can always (and possibly should here) hire someone to do the work.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Mark, thanks for the answer and complete info (as usual!!!). If you have one of these monsters available to see, is there a UL listing on the back panel? This has really piqued my curiosity to know whether UL was listing units sold with unlisted cordsets. From reading all of of Don's tribulations in getting the Peavey Distro listed, I recall them being very particular to the point of anal regarding exactly which cordset was being used.

 

I traded the MA-3600's directly into Crown on the MA-5000's I have. My MA-5000's are out on lease and I don't have immediate access to the amps. I do, however, have my origonal owner's manuals for both the MA-3600's and 5000's. On the first inside page of the owner's manual for Crown MA3600VZ serial # 644130 (approx. mfg date: July 1996?), at the lower left hand corner of the page is a UL symbol, with the number "E106377" directly above the UL symbol (which I believe is the UL file number pertaining to the UL certification), with the notation "Applies only to North American units"... so I'd say either the amp is UL listed, or at least the owner's manual is UL listed?

 

I believe further information concerning UL #E106377 can be found here:

 

http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/certifmarks/listing_marks.htm

[Craig Vecchione]

I traded the MA-3600's directly into Crown on the MA-5000's I have. My MA-5000's are out on lease and I don't have immediate access to the amps. I do, however, have my origonal owner's manuals for both the MA-3600's and 5000's. On the first inside page of the owner's manual for Crown MA3600VZ serial # 644130 (approx. mfg date: July 1996?), at the lower left hand corner of the page is a UL symbol, with the number "E106377" directly above the UL symbol (which I believe is the UL file number pertaining to the UL certification), with the notation "Applies only to North American units"... so I'd say either the amp is UL listed, or at least the owner's manual is UL listed? I believe further information concerning UL #E106377 can be found here: http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/certifmarks/listing_marks.htm

 

 

That sounds to me like they're UL-listed amps. And I do recall your story about finding UL stickers on garden rakes and shovels, so I can appreciate you questioning whether it's actually the owner's manual that's listed. :lol:

 

If they came with TT-30's, then the TT-30 must be a conforming cordend for this application (UL813 Commercial Audio Equipment ??) and that makes 'em A-okay fine, I suppose.

 

I'd put an L5-30 on the distro and the amp, and call it a day. Or tell tsaldana3's brother to get his own damn distro!!!

[kevinnem]

Kevin, the problem we have is in making recommendations that may be convenient, but not safe or legal for the user to employ. It's a catch-22, and it's due in no small part to Crown building an amp that's too big for 120v power as commonly provided. Neither the TT-30 nor the L5-30 nor the L14-30 are common to the average person. But neither is running SR gear, especially big-power amps like the Crown Macro's. AFAIC that's the big leagues, and the OP needs to step up his game and learn how to properly and safely get power to his amp(s). Or hire someone who can do this work for him. The problem I have with some recomendations is that the people provideing them fail to consider the effectiveness of there implimentations. An idea may be safe and legal, but if it proves to be to difficult or cubersome to use, your have accomlished nothing - the user of the sytem will be unable to accomlish their goal, and/or stop useing your system. For many people on this site, they seem content with the attitude "well I told him to do it right". For me this isn't good enough. I need to know that we have come up with a solution that is safe, and WILL BE USED. Additionially, regarding the L5 VS L14/L21 issue. Firstly, I am not sure, but I think it would be safe to drop a leg, and only use one. Second a infomal poll of 4 phone calls to my peers/compition in town here comfirm that All 4 know and use 50 amp range. All 4 use L14-30 (know as "single phase 30 amp twist " to these guys) 2 use the L21-30 (3 phase 30 amp twist)-for larger systems. not one had any idea what a L5-30 amp was. Nor what would use one. Also I went to the preconfigured distro at motion labs (larger disrto maker?), NOT 1 of them had a L5-30 on it. Almost every single one of them had L14 or L21. Re read my post and you will see that I stated that I am aware that L14-30 is not "common" ... but it is the most popular of these rare connectors. The L5 is uncommon, even compared to the L14. I'm not sure why you state the L5-30 is uncommon, but not mention that the L14-30 is just as unusual for "common folk". Both are almost never used for household applications. About the only home use for either is portable gensets, and both are indeed quite commonly available at big box home centers, and in ANY electrical supply house, which is something any person can locate in their area. If you live where there's electric power, there will be electricians, and supply houses to serve them. And they'll have any cord end you desire. We all want to help the OP, but it's important that we recommend doing things in the safest and most "legal" way possible, before offering unusual or compromised workarounds. ANY electrical thread is a problem for me, because I really don't want someone getting into any form of trouble due to following advice given here. If I have to fall to one side or the other, I will always fall to the safe and legal course that is at the expense of cost, convenience and specialized knowledge. The OP can always (and possibly should here) hire someone to do the work.

 

 

And I COMPLETELY agree with you, not only do I want to remove the need for the OP to need specialised knowlage now, but I want to remove it in the future to!

 

I still say that there are only 3 cources of action here that make sence.

1) Suck it up , use the 20 amp thing your brother has, hope for the best. Dirsto has duplex, - simple easy cost effective, though some would agrue illegal. (30 amp device with 20 amp plug.)

 

2) Get the tt30 on the distro, knowing full well it will be useless for anthing other then this amp, and locate the distro within 1 power cord lenth of the amp. Solves the imeadiate issue completely, but at the expense if long term useablity. Your locked in to useing that amp. And you will never likly come accross anything that uses that plug again. I personally don't buy stuff that is this "narrow purposed". It iwll jsut lead to the enevitable "umm, . I need to use this XXX amp , but all I have is the crown plug ..."

 

3) Have distro build with L14-30 twist lock, get a L14-20 extention cable, .. and a L14-30 to tt 30 adapter made by the guys building your distro. I think this would be safe, as everything is 30 amp rated. I don't think that "dropping" a leg and useing this as a 125 only systemat teh converter is an issue at all. You would still need a double breaker. If you where ever to need a second distro you would simply add one of the 30 amp distro from ampshop (or rent from someone in town that I am sure uses this same set up), and "link" from the 50 amp to the 30 amp. Doing it this way will provide, the best resale, the most compatiblity to other systems, the most potential for growth, and flexablity.

 

RE - haveing the OP cut off the end of the amp cord and replace it with L5. - Well for starters its not his amp, so I don't like that idea to start. Secondly, for all the talk about UL listing of amps/ and cord sets (and manuals), and not requiring speciallised knowlage to do this stuff --- you guys think this is the best solution? I for one would much rather not have the OP cutting in to wires. but hey, what the hell do I know right?

[tsaldana3]

trust me, I've been following the whole thread. I'll probably just go with your second option. Which is just getting the tt-30 recptical. My brother has been happy with the amp, and is most likely not to replace it. I use all normal plug amps, (crown xti's) so it won't be a problem for me.

[agedhorse]

The L-5 is the defacto standard of the construction industry in all of north America. They are as easy to get as a regular 5-20 (U-ground) and not all that much more expensive either. They are easier to get than the TT style.

Crown could certainly have their products listed with that connector as a non-conforming use (dosn't mean that it's not safe) and it may have been the cheapest option knowing that most folks would shorten the cordset and install a connector matching their distro. A lot were installed using L5-20's too.

I am against using non-conforming configurations, it makes things more difficult down the road, especially where 5-30's are already available and conforming.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

RE - haveing the OP cut off the end of the amp cord and replace it with L5. - Well for starters its not his amp, so I don't like that idea to start. Secondly, for all the talk about UL listing of amps/ and cord sets (and manuals), and not requiring speciallised knowlage to do this stuff --- you guys think this is the best solution? I for one would much rather not have the OP cutting in to wires. but hey, what the hell do I know right?

 

 

I repeatedly stated he should hire any work that he's not prepared to handle.

[tsaldana3]

so I got the distro.

My brother's used it more than me! So, he decided to buy it off me.
Now I need to order another one, for ME this time. haha.

Same as the first one I bought, but without the TT-30. But now I'm thinking I want to get a stinger from them...

I would like it like the one they show, with the 4 drops same length etc.
But what plug should I get put on it that I would also have to get put on the distro?

I'd like to get it with a normal edison, just for the times I wouldn't be able to use the distro, but what do you guys suggest?

[jkm]

oh Will robinson leave the death by zapping distro to the pros

[Craig Vecchione]

 

oh Will robinson leave the death by zapping distro to the pros

 

 

FYI, I answered your question about splitting for in-ears over in the DIY forum.

[kevinnem]

so I got the distro. My brother's used it more than me! So, he decided to buy it off me. Now I need to order another one, for ME this time. haha. Same as the first one I bought, but without the TT-30. But now I'm thinking I want to get a stinger from them... I would like it like the one they show, with the 4 drops same length etc. But what plug should I get put on it that I would also have to get put on the distro? I'd like to get it with a normal edison, just for the times I wouldn't be able to use the distro, but what do you guys suggest?

 

I looked in to many options. and seen what all the guys in town use. There are only 2 that seem to really be used, and 1 that would be best for you.

 

1) some people use 30 amp twist L14-30 (see a theme developing here....use 30 amp to power your amp rack(s) use 30 amp to power the stage power, and ultimatly 30 amp for lighting as well. ) this gives a TON of power. However, you then need breakers installed on the outlets. The output "boxes" useally have 4-8 duplex outlets. and you can chain many togetther.

Pro - LOTS of power for back line, and or lighting. - Uses the standard l14-30 that you would use to power amp racks.

Cons- when useing "wall power" you would not be able to use it at all. OR you would ned a little converter to go from 15 amp wall to 30 amp twist to turn this thing in to a giant power bar. heavy.

 

2) plain old 15/20 amp plug.

Pros - totaly universeal. you can use it at every show for many things. and even not at the show- I am sure you will find many a use for it. light.

Cons- not enough power for VERY LARGE back line setups. but if you have to run a dedicated run to the bass rig .. worest things could happen. Not enough power for lighting.

 

 

 

FYI - the stringers can be any length you want. - they custom build to order.

[Craig Vecchione]

It's virtually impossible to arrive at any general conclusions about what power will be available at venues. Anyone contemplating a distro purchase must either perform due-diligence in advancing venues, or try to cover all bases by purchasing all possible feeder adapters. It's costly either way, which is one of the reasons a distro isn't always a cost effective solution.

[kevinnem]

It's virtually impossible to arrive at any general conclusions about what power will be available at venues. Anyone contemplating a distro purchase must either perform due-diligence in advancing venues, or try to cover all bases by purchasing all possible feeder adapters. It's costly either way, which is one of the reasons a distro isn't always a cost effective solution.

 

 

In my area, we have only 3.

 

1) wall power 15 amp edison.

2) 50amp "range" plug.

3) 3 phase cam loc.

[agedhorse]

In my area, we have only 3. 1) wall power 15 amp edison. 2) 50amp "range" plug. 3) 3 phase cam loc.

 

 

That doesn't even remotely match what I see all across the country down here. This may be a difference in country standards though.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

That doesn't even remotely match what I see all across the country down here. This may be a difference in country standards though.

 

 

Kevin, are you claiming that what you've found is what anyone in CA or the US is likely to find in their area?

[kevinnem]

That doesn't even remotely match what I see all across the country down here. This may be a difference in country standards though.

 

 

fine. ... hence the reason I said "in my area".

 

What is most common in your area? More importantly, what is most common in the OP's area.

[kevinnem]

Kevin, are you claiming that what you've found is what anyone in CA or the US is likely to find in their area?

 

 

no I am not. What gave you that impression? I went out of my way to express that these are what we see in my area.

 

I would generally expect that "areas" will gravitate toward a common conections, what ever it may be.

[agedhorse]

In the US, the most common connectors found at commercial facilities are:

Cams
50 amp 120/240V 1ph twists
L21-30 and L21-20
L14-30 and L14-20
14-50
14-30
L5-30
L5-20
5-15/20

I encounter all of these on a regular basis.

[tsaldana3]

Let's see, the plugs I've seen here around town would be the standard 14-50 "range" plug, 5-15/20, and the cam lock oh and 14-30.

So I guess I'll get it with a 5-15. I know I'd be limited to the 15/20 amps but I would most likely never be in the situation that I'd need alot of power for guitar and bass amps and such. And if it were to happen, an extension cord to the distro would do the trick.

The stinger would most likely be used more for active monitors.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I would generally expect that "areas" will gravitate toward a common conections, what ever it may be.

 

 

It costs money, sometimes a lot, for a venue to provide extra power points for entertainment. Unless there's pressing reason for them to change what they have, (to meet Code, because previous bands couldn't play due to a lack of power, because they're renovating, etc.) inertia is likely to rule the day. We basically come back around to my point that there's simply no way to anticipate what a venue will provide. There's no standard, there's no codification, and there are huge variations in venue size and intended entertainment support. So we see lots of different power.

[kevinnem]

You made the "theme" comment about L14-30's,

 

 

I hav edited my post to more clearly expain what I ment by "theme".

 

The theme of which I am commenting on, is that of standardising your rig to use L14-30 through your system to deliver power.

 

To the OP-----

 

What form of power do you useally find at your shows.

[tsaldana3]

To the OP----- What form of power do you useally find at your shows.

 

 

14-50 and the normal 15/20 amp plugs.

 

And the 14-50 I see once in a while. Not always.