Members agedhorse Posted August 30, 2009 Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 Ok, thanks to all who replied. I'm just gonna have to go with whatever the hire company provide and set up a delay tower behind the mix booth. It'll be a day of learning for me and there will be 5-6 hours between setup and showtime to rearrange the array and tower, so hopefully it'll end up a good show. I know I can put up a good mix anyway Thanks again, ad 5-6 hours between setup and showtime won't be enough time to wipe your ass, no less enough time to reposition a delay tower or rearrange an array. I suggest that you have no real clue regarding how long a setup like this generally takes, nor the labor and logistics involved. (ps... I do) Take off an hour for door time and you have 4-5 hours. Unloading a truck or two with that much gear might take that long, especially if you have top cart it over field protection. Are you really doing this or is this some kind of bad troll dream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted August 30, 2009 Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 Strat tool and Special J make good points, and my original thoughts. When I have to mix a band in a stadium they're either opening for another band, and the PA is already spec'd, tuned, and aligned, or I just tell the SR company vaguely what I'd like to see and they put it together for me. This is why they send out system techs, to set up a system they know inside and out. You should be talking to the SR company about this, not an internet forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted August 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 Why are you trying to do the thinking for the rental company? I can't believe that a compnay that could furnish this kind of gear wouldn't have some very good engineers on staff to lay this out properly for you. Well, I'd like to have gotten some good information from on here so as to go to the rental company with a clear idea of what we needed. My experience with rental companies has been a bit hit and miss in the past, i.e supplying what's convenient for them rather than what the show actually needs. It's likely that 1 or 2 riggers will show up in the morning, set up, and disappear for the day until it's time for teardown.. Nevermind, I'll do the best I can with what I have, I always do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted August 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 Strat tool and Special J make good points, and my original thoughts. When I have to mix a band in a stadium they're either opening for another band, and the PA is already spec'd, tuned, and aligned, or I just tell the SR company vaguely what I'd like to see and they put it together for me. This is why they send out system techs, to set up a system they know inside and out.You should be talking to the SR company about this, not an internet forum. See previous post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted August 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 5-6 hours between setup and showtime won't be enough time to wipe your ass, no less enough time to reposition a delay tower or rearrange an array. I suggest that you have no real clue regarding how long a setup like this generally takes, nor the labor and logistics involved. (ps... I do) Take off an hour for door time and you have 4-5 hours. Unloading a truck or two with that much gear might take that long, especially if you have top cart it over field protection. Are you really doing this or is this some kind of bad troll dream? I meant 5-6 hours tweak time after everything has been initially installed and powered up. We'll be there at 9 in the morning, showtime is 9pm. Thanks for assuming I'm some sort of dip{censored}. I've 300+ shows done with this band and repeat business is strong. The reason we were booked for this show is that we're the only local outfit capable of carrying it off. I've never done a stadium show before and I came on here expecting some good advice, not to be talked to like I'm handicapped. My original question, tho garbled, was basically:- How big a pa do we need and what type of pattern. Thanks anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted August 30, 2009 Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 I've never done a stadium show before and I came on here expecting some good advice, not to be talked to like I'm handicapped. The reason we question is, because from your posts it sounds like you're in over your head. Stadium sound varies wildly from venue to venue and show to show, so trying to give you advice on how to go about it without knowing what the venue looks like, it's actual size, the audience arrangement, the stage placement, your experience as an engineer as well as what type of PA and how many boxes you have at your disposal is at best a wild turkey chase. You keep mentioning the Deltamax boxes, are you actually planning on using them for this gig? As Special J already said and IIRC these are mid/short throw boxes that wouldn't array very nicely, and would cause a bunch of problems in a big hang. To answer your question about power, the systems I've been involved with to cover 10-20k people are usually right around 100kW. I still don't understand what you mean by "pattern". Are you talking about coverage? I apologize if we're not helping much, but we don't really have much to go on here. Where are you located, by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted August 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 The reason we question is, because from your posts it sounds like you're in over your head. Stadium sound varies wildly from venue to venue and show to show, so trying to give you advice on how to go about it without knowing what the venue looks like, it's actual size, the audience arrangement, the stage placement, your experience as an engineer as well as what type of PA and how many boxes you have at your disposal is at best a wild turkey chase. You keep mentioning the Deltamax boxes, are you actually planning on using them for this gig? As Special J already said and IIRC these are mid/short throw boxes that wouldn't array very nicely, and would cause a bunch of problems in a big hang. To answer your question about power, the systems I've been involved with to cover 10-20k people are usually right around 100kW. I still don't understand what you mean by "pattern". Are you talking about coverage? I apologize if we're not helping much, but we don't really have much to go on here. Where are you located, by the way? Ya, pattern=coverage, to me at least:- Another poster referred to pattern in much the same way.. Finally, a straight answer on wattage, yay, well down the 2nd page of the thread. I described the venue already, the pitch is about a 3rd to a half again bigger than a standard american football pitch, it's a stadium and seats 40,000. Most of the crowd will be on the pitch. We're expecting 5,000-10,000 souls if they lose the match the day before, up to or over 30,000 if they win. This was all covered in my original posts. I referenced the Deltamax system as what I expect as good quality sound, other posters were waffling about sensitivity etc. yadda yadda yadda. I was expecting to get a reasonable idea of how much wattage I'd need from on here and go to the rental company and take it from there with them. I'm not stupid and we'll work out the coverage during setup. I also asked would it be a good idea to use 4 of our own Deltamax tops as the delay tower. I went into detail about the kind of coverage needed by the delay tower already in a previous post. Sorry if you think you haven't much to go on but all of you might try and actually read my posts before you all start making a total noob out of me. Good luck and thanks edit:- the replies on here contain more red herrings than a whole series of Murder, She Wrote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted August 30, 2009 Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 Gubu, you guys disliked the JBL's you bought so much you are still renting the EV's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted August 30, 2009 Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 Well, I've been talking Deltamax since the beginning of the thread, so, would 50k of Deltamax do the job of making the band heard over the hum of around 20,000 people without damaging children's ears? I don't think so ... if you are talking about having thumping bass. If it were speech only then it probably would (if setup properly). Delta Max are not intended for throwing a long distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Special J Posted August 31, 2009 Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 OK, perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Are you guys responsible for the PA system for this event? If you are - Oh you poor bastards. IME, there's usually a promoter and production manager of some sort involved with this size production that are usually responsible for hiring the PA. Keeping your (the band's) needs in mind, but sticking with the budget, they'll (the hire co.) come up with a design that will (hopefully) cover the expected audience size. Covering 5k on a field is a much different thing than covering 30k in the stands. You keep asking for recommendations on wattage for this event, but that is an arbitrary number and by no means the most important part of a PA design.We did a show for about 5000 audience in a field this past weekend. National rock act. We had about 300,000 theoretical watts of power available for FOH and delays. You don't know the number/type of speakers and amps we were using, so that number means absolutely nothing to you. It sounds impressive though, don't it? What the hire company wants to know from the BE is what kind of desk(s) you want to mix on, what outboard do you need, mic selection, plots and lists. What the hire company wants to know from the promoter/prod. manager (if that's also you, good luck) will be: 1. BUDGET2. Audience size and arrangement - is it 360 in the round?, 180?, field only? Do you have drawings?3. Available power? Be prepared to rent generator(s) if the power is inadequate or too far away to be useful.4. Are you supplying a crew to unload the semi or 2 worth of gear?5. Is there going to be a roof structure on the stage? Truss towers for flying speakers? If everything is ground stacked, you're going to need a LOT more speakers in multiple zones.6. Who's carrying insurance for this event?7. Security? Barricades?8. Will there be press feeds? Recording? Is this live to TV?9. Who's feeding the crew?10. Who's dealing with covering the snake run to FOH. And a bunch of other details. Also, what's the real focus of the event? Is the band an afterthought? Getting some cheers and shout outs to a crowd of 30k isn't as expensive as getting a rock band to rock concert levels to the same crowd. Have you already figured your fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted August 31, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 Gubu, you guys disliked the JBL's you bought so much you are still renting the EV's? Wow, respect to your memory!! That JBL system was for a 2nd band under the same management. I don't run their sound but get plenty of phone calls from them regarding equipment, etc. They decided the JBL system was too expensive ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted August 31, 2009 Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 Wow, respect to your memory!! That JBL system was for a 2nd band under the same management. I don't run their sound but get plenty of phone calls from them regarding equipment, etc. They decided the JBL system was too expensive ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted August 31, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 OK, perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Are you guys responsible for the PA system for this event? If you are - Oh you poor bastards. IME, there's usually a promoter and production manager of some sort involved with this size production that are usually responsible for hiring the PA. Keeping your (the band's) needs in mind, but sticking with the budget, they'll (the hire co.) come up with a design that will (hopefully) cover the expected audience size. Covering 5k on a field is a much different thing than covering 30k in the stands. You keep asking for recommendations on wattage for this event, but that is an arbitrary number and by no means the most important part of a PA design. We did a show for about 5000 audience in a field this past weekend. National rock act. We had about 300,000 theoretical watts of power available for FOH and delays. You don't know the number/type of speakers and amps we were using, so that number means absolutely nothing to you. It sounds impressive though, don't it? What the hire company wants to know from the BE is what kind of desk(s) you want to mix on, what outboard do you need, mic selection, plots and lists. What the hire company wants to know from the promoter/prod. manager (if that's also you, good luck) will be: 1. BUDGET 2. Audience size and arrangement - is it 360 in the round?, 180?, field only? Do you have drawings? 3. Available power? Be prepared to rent generator(s) if the power is inadequate or too far away to be useful. 4. Are you supplying a crew to unload the semi or 2 worth of gear? 5. Is there going to be a roof structure on the stage? Truss towers for flying speakers? If everything is ground stacked, you're going to need a LOT more speakers in multiple zones. 6. Who's carrying insurance for this event? 7. Security? Barricades? 8. Will there be press feeds? Recording? Is this live to TV? 9. Who's feeding the crew? 10. Who's dealing with covering the snake run to FOH. And a bunch of other details. Also, what's the real focus of the event? Is the band an afterthought? Getting some cheers and shout outs to a crowd of 30k isn't as expensive as getting a rock band to rock concert levels to the same crowd. Have you already figured your fee? Ok, pretty comprehensive. I'll try and respond to the whole lot if I can... Ya, we are responsible for the PA, and I do feel like a poor bastard at the moment! The hire company wil be supplying nothing but PA. I'll be using our own desk (Soundcraft GB2) and outboard (4 channels of compression, a reverb unit and a 32 channel FOH eq unit). We'll be using our own stage monitors in a 3 way mix across 4 speakers (450 watt powered Wharfedales). We also have about 1500 watts of spare EV wedges than I may use for side fills for the band (fed from a matrix or group). We'll also be using our own mics, DI's etc. I'm more comfortable using our own mix gear as the mix/outboard is pretty much set up already after 300+ shows. Regarding the wattage being a theoretical figure, only one poster has mentioned actual brand names and model numbers when talking about the type of PA that will work for this type of event. And even then, it was only amps, not speakers. 1. BUDGET - Not unlimited but the sports organisation involved has deep pockets.. 2. Audience size and arrangement - The stage will be set up at one end of the pitch, right in front and middle of the stand at that end. I expect the pitch to fill to about half to 2/3 the way back. One of the long stands (along the sideline/length of pitch) will probably also fill to about the same distance. With this in mind, my current plan would be to run the band only thru the FOH for the crowd on the pitch and set up a feed to the house PA (big ugly horns in the stands) for the MC and speeches. I've outlined this elsewhere in the thread:- i.e. the 'party people' can come down to the pitch for the night and dance about etc., we've all seen sports fans after a big game! The stand will be mostly full of families with kids and older people. They need to hear the speeches but will probably be happy to have the gig just going on in the background. 3. Generators - We'll have at least one trailer sized generator, provided by ourselves. The management company is also in the construction business and have supplied gennys before for outdoor shows. 4. The crew will be 2, maybe 3 guys from the hire company plus the band and 3 or 4 part time roadies, so about 11 or 12, plus maybe 3 or 4 venue logistics people. 5. Roof structure etc. - I need to find this out and will be in touch with management tonight. We've built plenty of our own stages in the past but I'm hoping the sports organisation or hire company can source a 'gig rig' or proper stage of some description. If the hire company have a line array for us, I'm assuming at this stage that they'll also have flying trusses and lifting equipment. 6. Insurance is being handled by the sports organisation - it's their venue 7. Security, barricades - absolutely. Standard barricading will be in place in front of the stage and around the mix booth (at least) along with a full crew of event security. 8. No press feeds. Recording is a headache I could do without, if the band ask for a recording, I'll have to just say sorry guys, not this time, I've enough to be getting on with. No live TV feed - TV will be in the ground but only for a 2 or 3 minute link to a news programme. 9. We'll be OK for food, if the venue don't look after us, the management will. Not a concern 10. Snake run - Myself and 1 or 2 of the crew. We have 2 carpenters in the band who can whip up ducting pretty quickly but anyway, I'll be asking about this tonight. The focus of the event is basically a big party for the team and supporters. The band will do around 1+1/2 to 2 hrs of a show for the fans before the team arrive. They may finish off with a half hr encore after the team have made their speeches and all that malarkey, this will be down to time and we'll wing it on the night. We're not a rock band and don't need Lollapalooza volume (or whatever volume). Also, there will be kids at it and elderly people, see answer #2. My fee is 1/6th of whatever the band net after expenses, I've been paid as a band member the past year or so. Thanks again, I'll know more after tonight's phone call ad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted August 31, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 Lucky they didn't get strapped with that as a "band purchase" first. Ya, they'd have been lucky to sell it on for 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted September 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted September 1, 2009 Ok, just to finish this one up. The hire company is providing ~45,000 watts in the form of a 2 Cobra and one Deltamax (newer than ours) systems. The stage will be under the main stand (touchline) as opposed to at one end of the pitch as I'd previously thought. The stadium are providing a line to their house PA so we're gonna patch the MC and speeches thru the stadium PA per my original plan. This will cover families and older people in the stands, those having a party can come down on the pitch in front of the stage so there's no need for a delay tower. Thanks, I'll let ye know how we get on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted September 1, 2009 Members Share Posted September 1, 2009 Since you are hiring the sound I think you are taking the wrong approach to procuring it. The equipment doesn't matter. It only matters that the provider actually supply the amount needed to do the job. Define the job and ask them to perform the work for a price. That's their business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted September 1, 2009 Members Share Posted September 1, 2009 Let us know how it goes, and take some pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 1, 2009 Members Share Posted September 1, 2009 I meant 5-6 hours tweak time after everything has been initially installed and powered up. We'll be there at 9 in the morning, showtime is 9pm. Thanks for assuming I'm some sort of dip{censored}. I've 300+ shows done with this band and repeat business is strong. The reason we were booked for this show is that we're the only local outfit capable of carrying it off. I've never done a stadium show before and I came on here expecting some good advice, not to be talked to like I'm handicapped. My original question, tho garbled, was basically:- How big a pa do we need and what type of pattern. Thanks anyway... Well, if the shoe fits... Your original question has no single or clear answer. We have tried to help you understand this but you fail to progress beyond defensive. Some of us here have done plenty of stadium and shed shows, you have no idea what you are in for... you lucky bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted September 2, 2009 Author Members Share Posted September 2, 2009 Let us know how it goes, and take some pictures! Pictures, of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted September 9, 2009 Author Members Share Posted September 9, 2009 Here's some photos guys:- The team lost but a good crowd still turned up, I reckon around 5,000 people but you can judge yourselves in the photos. I gave my phone to one of the riggers to take a few snaps but he never got a shot of the pa for me! Hire company provided a 45k pa made up of a deltamax, cobra and alpha rigs. The deltamax and cobra were on the stage left and right and the alpha stack at floor level either side of the stage with bins at floor level across the front of the stage. To be honest, I'd say we could have used double the wattage but you could still hear the band just fine at halfway back. The stadium didn't supply a covered mix booth, meaning we mixed from the side of the stage, once the gig started, the hire company chief made a few trips out into the crowd and suggested some minor tweaks, tho we had it pretty well set at the soundcheck. One thing that strikes me from hearing our mix thru this good a pa system is that the deltamax rig we normally use is fried and at least needs a service if not a total replacement! We had serious problems with the weather, driving wind and rain blowing in on top of us. We were scheduled to play an hour long set before the team arrival and speeches and another hour long set after but had to pull the plug after the speeches, it was too wet and therefore too dangerous. Anyway, here's some pics:-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted September 9, 2009 Author Members Share Posted September 9, 2009 I recorded the show on a HD2424 so if I get some mixes done I'll post em too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted September 9, 2009 Members Share Posted September 9, 2009 Hire company provided a 45k pa made up of a deltamax, cobra and alpha rigs... To be honest, I'd say we could have used double the wattage but you could still hear the band just fine at halfway back. I guessing what you really mean is double the level ... which takes 10 times the power. A simple doubling of power would only be barely perceptable. Now you know why the system I described had 300k+ watts and it was not crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gubu Posted September 9, 2009 Author Members Share Posted September 9, 2009 I guessing what you really mean is double the level ... which takes 10 times the power. A simple doubling of power would only be barely perceptable. Now you know why the system I described had 300k+ watts and it was not crazy. Of course, schoolboy error by me on spl vs. power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted September 10, 2009 Members Share Posted September 10, 2009 Every show is a success as long as you learn something new, but everything sounds like it went OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted September 10, 2009 Members Share Posted September 10, 2009 Good lord. Please. A pitch? You mean a football field? LOL that's priceless. Sounds like you had a good learning experience. Good job, then. Now, depending on where on earth you are located, why there aren't any sound providers that could handle that size stadium without using different types of speakers I just don't understand. Seems like if the organization had deep pockets they could afford the little details normally necessary in this situation. Such as: Covered stage, covered mix position, same brand PA system, proper power and placement, system tech(s), etc, etc. The whole thing smacks of amateur hour. Seems amazing that it went as well as it did. Congrats for that! It could have been such a disaster, as what everyone here was trying to allude to in their previous posts. Please, take no offense to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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