Members Coverdale Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 Hey guys! One of my bandmates is going to take over a small club - he's remodelling the whole place. On one of the rooms, he wants to have live music. He needs a small PA, which will do for live music and also for playing CDs. The speakers will have to be fixed to the walls. The stage will be the space with the guitar on fire, that will have tables when there's no live music Here are a few projects for the room: Ok, so a few questions: 1- What would be the ideal position for the speakers? On the corners of the "guitar in flames wall", right? 2- What kind of power would he need? The space is small - Total area : 62 square meter = 667.362 445 84 square foot - What kind of speakers? 12' 10', 8' ? Would a subwoofer be necessary? 3- He wanted to have a rack with Mixer and Power amp(to be stored on non-music days) and another small mixer (to keep behind the counter)for playing CDs. Is this an ideal setup? Using 2 mixers, and then maybe some kind of A/B device to choose from which mixer to feed a Power amp? If you can help in any way, he would appreciate it! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 I'm not going to recommend anything at this point except to say, be very careful if and when you fly anything. Whatever "he" purchases, if he is going to fly those speakers they must be rated for that application AND they need to be attached to something that is rated for that application. I imagine almost everyone on this forum has seen examples of nightmare fly jobs. Further to that, if you're not going to get a professional sound contractor/installer involved, you might be better to use speakers on stands, until you find the optimum position for your speakers. BTW cool program, what is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 I also like the rendering program you used. Shaster, he wants to put the speakers on the wall behind the musicians! IMHO, not a good place for them at all. Like Shaster said, Put them on speaker stands right in front of the stage "riser". It's not likely that you would need a subwoffer in a space like that. You are probably going to have acoustic acts in a space that small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KF650SB1000 Posted October 27, 2009 Members Share Posted October 27, 2009 1: I would suggest a center hang above the stage with the speaker focused to the furthest point of the room. You may want a sub, especially for a DJ. See below on my two suggestions. 2: Power wise: I would suggest 1 or 2 breakers for the PA system and at least 1 breaker for the band. 3: Try keeping it small and compact: I would say a 12-14 space rack with a mixer tops. If you go with powered speakers, you won't need to work about an amp rack. Build an input panel on the wall for a sub-snake to control the speakers. Acoustic Music:A single EV ZXa5 or JBL PRX512MI. Then on the floor next to the stage a EV SBa760 or JBL PRX718s. Full Bands:2 or maybe 3 VRX932LA; 1 maybe 2 of the VRX918S hanging above the VRX932 or next to it. The VRX also comes with the Powered option which is highly recommended. I know my suggestions I kind of expensive. Something to think of is Monitors; 2 or 3 PRX512m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 Yikes!!! That suggestion, while good stuff, is IMO too much as far as speakers. How many chairs are there in that picture, maybe 30? No need for a sub either. Again, that's my opinion. Good idea about the input panel on the back wall and mixer behind the "bar". All the wiring for the inputs and speakers should be built "into" the wall/ ceiling. Only have panels on the walls where there is to be equipment connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 Full Bands:2 or maybe 3 VRX932LA; 1 maybe 2 of the VRX918S hanging above the VRX932 or next to it. The VRX also comes with the Powered option which is highly recommended. I know my suggestions I kind of expensive. Seriously? A flown VRX system for a 600 square foot coffee shop? I would suggest some kind of subwoofer, though -- it does make a difference both for bands and DJs, and while an acoustic act might not use it much, having it there for prerecorded music and DJs will make a huge difference in sound quality. Subwoofer does not have to equal "loud", but without one, you're missing a good section of the musical frequencies that many people like. You have the advantage of a small room, which means if he's got any kind of budget, he can get something very nice and compact, instead of just a giant pile of POS cabinets that'll struggle with the room size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KF650SB1000 Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 Seriously? A flown VRX system for a 600 square foot coffee shop? Pattern control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 Christ. Okay. When it's time for him to buy a light for the ceiling, make sure he gets this one: It's only $128,000.00 USD... but imagine the light dispersion. And don't forget... I'll only drink coffee out of one of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members monthlymixcd Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 I'd recommend a sub as well. Have him just get one Kv2 EX2.2 and stick it in the corner. He can then go with smaller tops that will allow him to mount to the ceiling over where the front of the "stage" would be.... like the EV ZX1s or the QSC I82H speakers (a used pair just went for $300 shipped on eBay) Either would sound GREAT in that environment. Stage monitors could be K10s or something else powered and small... 2 or 3. It seems like the FOH would be best located at or near the bar in that room, so just use one good mixer there with the rest of the rack built in below that... including that CD/mp3 player/PC. Run a snake from the mixer position to the back of the stage via the ceiling, basement, or whatever and you're done. That would suffice for 90% of bands. Rent stacks and a rack for anything big. I also see a pretty simple DMXIS lighting system for that space as well. It wouldn't take much to really make that stage POP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members allexcosta Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 ZXA5's? EX2.2's? Here's my 0.02 A pair of Bose's 402 in the ceiling, here: A pair of Bose's MB4 subs in the corner and a pair of ZX1's as monitors, like this: Alternatively, he'd do well with ZX1's for mains and monitors, and a wharfedale Titan 12 sub in that corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 1- What would be the ideal position for the speakers? On the corners of the "guitar in flames wall", right? That would put the speakers behind the band, wouldn't it? That's probably the worst place to put them. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members monthlymixcd Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 ZXA5's? EX2.2's? OK, maybe even a single EX2.2 is overkill... so why not go reeeally simple and stick an SB2A in the corner and use its other amp out to power a single ZX1 ceiling-mounted over center stage?!? And the space is so small you'd probably only need one powered monitor up front as well... like a single K10 or Titan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members allexcosta Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 OK, maybe even a single EX2.2 is overkill... so why not go reeeally simple and stick an SB2A in the corner and use its other amp out to power a single ZX1 ceiling-mounted over center stage?!? And the space is so small you'd probably only need one powered monitor up front as well... like a single K10 or Titan. Works too, although 2 tops would have better dispersion IMO. We could do this all day. I'll go again... FBT Amico 1000 with built-in mixer. Keep the sub-mixer somewhere in the bar, underneath the counter, inside a wooden cabinet for protection. Add a metal or plastic seamless grille to the wall, so the lows will have a way out. Put a built-in input box on the stage with a seamless snake to the mixer. Use the satellite boxes as FOH and one or two K10's for monitoring. Your turn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 28, 2009 Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 A couple SX80's or ZX1's flown above the stage and 2 on the floor. Ug, I wouldn't do more than acoustic nights in there (no drums). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coverdale Posted October 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 28, 2009 Wow, this is getting good! My friend is following the thread, and he has a few useful pointers! Ok, so a few more details (I hope I don't forget anything relevant):First of all, the space is a little larger than the images show (I don't know what program he used, sorry)He is planning to have full bands there( with drums) - The bar has always had them in the last few years. He already has 2 powered monitors which will do for now. There will be a snake coming from the stage to the mixer. He will probably order the stuff from this site : http://www.thomann.de/gb/index.html He liked the speakers on the ceiling idea. Will it have enough dispersion for when there's no live music (and there will be tables on the "stage") ? So,from what I've read so far, EV is a good price/quality ratio, right? Which are better, the SX80 or ZX1 ? How about a good (and reasonably priced) power amp for those?I also found the Wharfedale Sub at a good price here:http://www.lifeismusic.co.uk/PA/Wharfedale-Titan-Sub-A-12-250W-7573.aspx Also, mixer suggestions...? Sorry for asking so many questions. The thing is, around the place where he has the bar, professional sound contractors are a joke - super expensive, lousy work, they are not aware of most brands and models... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1tribe Posted October 29, 2009 Members Share Posted October 29, 2009 Small but sounds amazing, Nexo PS8 or PS10 systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 29, 2009 Members Share Posted October 29, 2009 Pattern control. Pattern control? The array is going to be too short for anything meaningful below say 800Hz. The HF pattern is already pretty "liberal", but I think more rather than less is needed given the room geometry. With the speakers above the front of the stage, you will need roughly 40-60 degrees vertical and a total of about 120 degrees horizontal. I would look at the QSC K12 type speaker or another speaker that has nice mounting hardware available for this type of installation is the QSC AD-S82HP. You could do this with 2 tops and a small sub and that would be low profile with a "euro" look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rwhealey Posted October 29, 2009 Members Share Posted October 29, 2009 Zx1 should be better than the Sx80 (I have the Zx1 and like very much, but have not heard the Sx80). The Zx series seems like it's designed to replace the Sx series, which has been around for a while. I think the Zx1i has a much better mounting system as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sir riff a lot Posted October 29, 2009 Members Share Posted October 29, 2009 2x QSC K101x QSC Ksub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 29, 2009 Members Share Posted October 29, 2009 The K series would also work, but would require power at each ceiling location in addition to the signal. They are also slightly larger and do not have the yoke mounting system which makes installation more difficult (though not impossible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted October 29, 2009 Members Share Posted October 29, 2009 2x QSC K101x QSC Ksub This is my recommendation as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members monthlymixcd Posted October 29, 2009 Members Share Posted October 29, 2009 There is a mounting yoke for the K Series. But Andy's point of them being larger and needing power runs make them a pain and unsightly for ceiling mount. The AD/ISIS speakers that he and I both mentioned have a much lower profile, better mounting system, need only speaker cable run to them, AND have a rotatable horn for better dispersion when ceiling mounted. You can also get them in white or paint to blend in with the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 29, 2009 Members Share Posted October 29, 2009 I didn't see that they released a yoke for the K's. Good to know. The rotatable horn and lower profile is a big plus in a "designer" room. I am personally not a fan of painting speakers to match as they never really match and it looks like they are trying hard to hide. I prefer black against a darker surface and white against a light surface. This way it looks like they were ment to be placed where they are, not somebody trying to hide a "mistake". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 Man. That room is tiny. Why do you need so much P.A. gear for a tiny room? I could bring in just an acoustic amp and easily fill that room. From the above ideas I like Alex's BOSE idea. You should have the speakers behind you in that little a room and they can act as monitors too. the Bose L1 would be my choice . Pleny of sound for a room that size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roadweiry Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 What is the square footage of this venue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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