CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 ABS on black ice, is basically useless. You can't rely on ABS to "stop" the vehicle in that situation,,, only to allow you to steer around a problem. And you can't count on the ability to steer either. No traction is no traction, and the fact that the front wheels aren't locked will help, but you still are trying to make them do two things (stop and steer) which reduces the ability of the tires to do either. Even coasting, a hard steer on ice is a crapshoot. Add the grossly exaggerated inputs of a panicked driver, and steering on ice or packed snow becomes a slide with wheels turned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J the D Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 And you can't count on the ability to steer either. No traction is no traction, and the fact that the front wheels aren't locked will help, but you still are trying to make them do two things (stop and steer) which reduces the ability of the tires to do either. Even coasting, a hard steer on ice is a crapshoot. That was my experience. I let off the brakes and it still wouldn't steer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 Now add a trailer to this equation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 That was my experience. I let off the brakes and it still wouldn't steer.Was it front or rear drive? Automatic or manual transmission? When it won't steer either put it in neutral or push the clutch in to keep the engine from locking up the wheels - especially with front wheel drive. If it is front wheel drive the more advanced winter driver can try giving it a little gas to keep the wheels turning or even a little more to get the front wheels to pull you into the turn - on black ice even the experienced is probably better off with the neutral or clutch in technique. Oh, and never turn the steering wheel more than a quarter turn to either side of straight ahead until the car starts to turn - that's about the slip angle of maximum traction, about 10 degrees if I remember? But obviously you're not gonna hop out with a protractor so 1/4 turn is easy to remember in an emergency . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 Now add a trailer to this equation... No way, no how, not ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J the D Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 Was it front or rear drive? Automatic or manual transmission? When it won't steer either put it in neutral or push the clutch in to keep the engine from locking up the wheels - especially with front wheel drive. If it is front wheel drive the more advanced winter driver can try giving it a little gas to keep the wheels turning or even a little more to get the front wheels to pull you into the turn - on black ice even the experienced is probably better off with the neutral or clutch in technique. Oh, and never turn the steering wheel more than a quarter turn to either side of straight ahead until the car starts to turn - that's about the slip angle of maximum traction, about 10 degrees if I remember? But obviously you're not gonna hop out with a protractor so 1/4 turn is easy to remember in an emergency . I wished I'd read this before I got into the situation. It was a front wheel drive Tempo rental with an automatic. I did not put it into neutral and probably turned the wheel more than 10 degrees. In the future I just plan to pick up my wife at the airport when she gets back. I'll go farther north than Ben Hill Griffin Stadium when it's warmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 7, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 Was it front or rear drive? Automatic or manual transmission? When it won't steer either put it in neutral or push the clutch in to keep the engine from locking up the wheels - especially with front wheel drive. If it is front wheel drive the more advanced winter driver can try giving it a little gas to keep the wheels turning or even a little more to get the front wheels to pull you into the turn - on black ice even the experienced is probably better off with the neutral or clutch in technique. Oh, and never turn the steering wheel more than a quarter turn to either side of straight ahead until the car starts to turn - that's about the slip angle of maximum traction, about 10 degrees if I remember? But obviously you're not gonna hop out with a protractor so 1/4 turn is easy to remember in an emergency . There are plenty of conditions where you get NO useful traction for steering, stopping, pulling, nothing. I've seen cars come to a complete stop, then slide down an imperceptible crown in the road to the curb. I once was stuck in a flat parking lot with my Toyota Celica. It had rained, and then froze. The car pulled out of the tire pattern, and wouldn't go any further...and this was a 5spd manual. I got out, and a couple of my buddies and I pushed the car around like it was a big curling stone:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 Now add a trailer to this equation...Fortunately all newer air brake trailers have antilock. Jacknifes are caused by the tractor's drive wheels sliding out - again best thing to do is push in the clutch when things start sliding about. When I slid through that red light the trailer was locking up (no antilock and loaded towards the front for traction) and started to slide out but letting up on the brakes brought it back and kept it out of the mailboxes and front porches . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 There are plenty of conditions where you get NO useful traction for steering, stopping, pulling, nothing. I've seen cars come to a complete stop, then slide down an imperceptible crown in the road to the curb.Yah friend of mine ended up against the guard rail at an off ramp along with a bunch of other folks and a big truck stopped to the left of them to help and just slid sideways into them. On car driver tried to stop it with his bare hands and body - fortunately someone dissuaded him . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 In the good ol' day of blue laws (no stores open on Sunday) we used to go to the big parking lots and "practice" our skills first snow. Also our Dads would bring us down to teach us how not to kill ourselves first year we were learnin' . Can't do that now - even if the stores were closed the liability to the stores would get them to keep us out . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 In the good ol' day of blue laws (no stores open on Sunday) we used to go to the big parking lots and "practice" our skills first snow. Also our Dads would bring us down to teach us how not to kill ourselves first year we were learnin' . Can't do that now - even if the stores were closed the liability to the stores would get them to keep us out . Yup. We learned to drive in snow and kick the back end (rear wheel drive cars back then) and recover from the slide in empty parking lots. Those were the days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted January 7, 2010 Members Share Posted January 7, 2010 Did the same thing here. My first car was a 1964 GTO. Took it to the big church parking lot after the first snow and spent hours doing donuts, skids, etc. Good thing, that car would have killed me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vort Posted January 8, 2010 Members Share Posted January 8, 2010 Craigv wrote: People are bad drivers in this area, and precip of any form really causes them problems. I simply stay home, as it's not worth the risk dealing with people who think 4wd means they can drive 48mph on ice. Craigv, your right. Around here (Philly area), I swear people forget how to drive at the first sign of snow. Even rain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 8, 2010 Members Share Posted January 8, 2010 Fortunately all newer air brake trailers have antilock. Jacknifes are caused by the tractor's drive wheels sliding out - again best thing to do is push in the clutch when things start sliding about. When I slid through that red light the trailer was locking up (no antilock and loaded towards the front for traction) and started to slide out but letting up on the brakes brought it back and kept it out of the mailboxes and front porches . Was talkinbg about tagalongs like what most of us use here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 8, 2010 Members Share Posted January 8, 2010 Was talkinbg about tagalongs like what most of us use here.As long as you have the brake controller set right you should be OK brake-wise. Big advantage of a fifth wheel trailer is the additional weight it puts on your drive wheels for traction . Less likely to jackknife too. If anyone wants a big one I know a local sound company lookin' to sell ... I know my 2000lb front wheel drive car towing a brakeless 2000lb trailer would be bad news for sure. Even if I start using it in the rain I should put brakes on it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 8, 2010 Members Share Posted January 8, 2010 As long as you have the brake controller set right you should be OK brake-wise. Big advantage of a fifth wheel trailer is the additional weight it puts on your drive wheels for traction . Less likely to jackknife too. If anyone wants a big one I know a local sound company lookin' to sell ... I know my 2000lb front wheel drive car towing a brakeless 2000lb trailer would be bad news for sure. Even if I start using it in the rain I should put brakes on it ... The controllers (most anyway) are not proportional to the actual braking level being used, they are proportional to 100% only. This means that the proportion used will be the same regardless of the conditions, which is where the problem arises. The 5th wheel puts plenty of load on the rear wheels. The tongue weight multiplied by the overhang transfers to the rear axle. The main advantage is that less wieght is transferred to the rear axle on a 5th wheel because there is no overhang moment arm. This keeps the weight balanced between friont and rear wheels ofthe tow vehicle and dynamicly there's no big changes in the ration of front to rear when going over bumps and irregularities in the road. There is also increased lateral satbility going around turns due to the horizontal forces being applied without the overhang moment in the horizontal direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madt0wn Posted January 8, 2010 Members Share Posted January 8, 2010 I'm in WI and the roads were unusually slick with the snow yesterday. A couple of co-workers went out for lunch and ended up getting t-boned by a truck with a snow plow on front. Luck for them it was slick so their van got pushed instead of cut in half. The pictures look as if the guy was intentionally aiming for the passanger, a huge hole slit right across his door. He was pretty shook up, but no injuries. When I was 16, my dad handed me the keys to his car, told me the gas tank was full and that I should take it down to the lake and drive crazy on the ice until the tank was empty. That experience has probably saved my life countless times. Plus, it was fun as hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 8, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 When I was 16, my dad handed me the keys to his car, told me the gas tank was full and that I should take it down to the lake and drive crazy on the ice until the tank was empty. That experience has probably saved my life countless times. Plus, it was fun as hell. "Wouldn't-a thought anything of it, if it weren't for the fact that it was August....":lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lonotes Posted January 8, 2010 Members Share Posted January 8, 2010 "Wouldn't-a thought anything of it, if it weren't for the fact that it was August....":lol: Been stuck with the name "Bubbles" ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rwhealey Posted January 9, 2010 Members Share Posted January 9, 2010 I was driving on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago in light traffic yesterday, glanced down at the speedometer, then looked up to see the car in front of me was completely sideways, but still moving in the direction of the road. Fortunately I had been keeping my distance, and the guy managed to slow down enough he only bumped the guardrail. Still quite scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 9, 2010 Members Share Posted January 9, 2010 Been stuck with the name "Bubbles" ever since. Just about blew coffee on my monitor :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members crossways Posted January 9, 2010 Members Share Posted January 9, 2010 Never will forget about 12 years ago crossing the mountain from TN to NC going to Asheville. It had snowed the day before, but raods appeared good. No problems till I started down the backside. Narrow two-lane (before they finished I-26). My steering wheel went 45degrees right and I was still going straight. One 540degree spin out later and I was stopped, staring over the side of the mountain. Somehow the Suburban behind me kept his distance, and nothing was oncoming. Have NO idea, other than Divine Intervention, how I kept from scratching the car or worse. My hands shook for the next few hours and my heart beat out of my chest. Scaredest I have ever been. TN doesn't get a ton of snow that sticks to the road. So when we do it 10,000 rednecks on a trial and error mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted January 25, 2010 Members Share Posted January 25, 2010 The white death is upon us here in cincy thurday morningglad your safe, have a drink or what ever helpsim a big fan of a few clicks on the emergency brake and low gear.if its rear wheel drive locking the brakes and going to reverseis fun if not a bit scary as you tend to end up going the otherdirection but for slow moving it has worked for me to bring a sliding ride to a stop if its not all ice...now watch i be the one to crash tomorrow hopefully notstay safe ladys and gents I used to go to school in madison IN many moons ago.... one thing for sure. You guys down there cant drive on ice and snow. "Yes i will go to the liqure store for you guys ,, but you will need to buy me a bottle of makers mark" As a kid that grew up in the lake effect snow belt of the great lakes i find the drivers down there funny as {censored}, but scary as {censored} too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 25, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 TN doesn't get a ton of snow that sticks to the road. So when we do it 10,000 rednecks on a trial and error mission. :D:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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