not so noobish-noob PA question.

[drooldud]

I'm a noob, but not an idiot. So please dont flame me

 

With that out of the way...

 

I'm trying to put together a modest dj rig. No need to speak of what im r using to play my sound, i just need some help with some component parts.

 

Here is what I have:

 

1 - Crest CC2800 (Sub Amp) -- http://www.crestaudio.com/assets/literature/specs/CFA-CC2800-AB_7628.pdf

1 - QSC Powerlight 1.4 (main amp) -- http://media.qscaudio.com/pdfs/discontinued_products/pl14.pdf

2 - Homemade 18 inch woofer cabs with eminence omega pro 18c - 4 ohms

1 - Tiny 4 channel behringer mixer (for now)

 

Still need to acquire:

 

2(1 pair) - http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/Pair-of-Dual-12-Pro-Audio-PA-DJ-Band-Speakers-p/sa-122t.htm

1 - 2-way Stereo Crossover

 

So what I need to know before i blow anything up is, am i doing this righ?

 

Mixer Main outs --> Crossover --> Crossover low into Crest Sub amp --> Subs

 

Mixer Main outs --> Crossover --> Crossover high into qsc main amp --> Mains

 

Maybe be augmented at some point with an EQ between then main outs and crossover but for now, i'm going to rely on the EQ built into my mini mixer.

 

Is there any problems with this set up?

 

The crest is going to feed up to 925 watts per side (4ohms) into 800 watt subs (crest will probably never be turned up past 75%)

 

The QSC is going to feed about 500 watts per side (4ohms) into my full range mains (probably turned up to 85-90%)

 

My biggest concern comes from the crossover. I'm thinking a simple setup like the cheap $100 peavey i keep finding or a used behringer.

 

So I want the low into my subs and high into my mains. But since my mains are fullrange, will this make any sort of issue for me? or will it just share some bottem end with the subs? Should I make the low go as low as possible so my main bass is going into my subs and the rest into my mains?

 

As i said, i dont THINK i'm an idiot, and I think for the most part this should work, but people are always helpful and any help would be great!

[Shaster]

The link didn't quite work for me but I'm assuming you mean these http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/Pair-of-Dual-12-Pro-Audio-PA-DJ-Band-Speakers-p/sa-122t.htm

 

A dual 12" speaker that's 600 watts rms for $289.99 hmmmmmm that's awfully cheap. wonder what they sound like:)

 

Too bad you've already got power amps, I would suggest powered speakers otherwise; JBL, QSC, EV, Yorkville, Peavey, maybe even Mackie.

 

I would think long and hard about your speakers before worrying about a crossover.

 

As to your crossover, with those speakers I would imagine any cheap crossover would do. Maybe I'm wrong about your FOH choice so YMMV.

[NUSound]

It will work...

 

But: I would opt for a dbx 223XL, but I'm sure a Peavey unit can't be half bad (haven't used it though.)

 

And: Those are nice amps. Can't speak for the subs. Horrible tops, IMO. So I'd recommend selling the PL 1.4 and buying a pair of PRX512's. As Shaster pointed out, the speakers are much more important than the crossover.

[drooldud]

Thanks for the responses guys!

 

so if i'm correct what were looking at is any crossover should do as long as it does it's job

 

and I should consider spending more on the mains?

 

The mains from seismic are the cheap chineese stuff, but they're cheap! and they have full warrenty so if it breaks, it gets replaced. I know it can be a bit of a gamble but who knows? maybe these guys are the next jbl's?

 

but i do agree, I have been thinking of other products I can use.

 

One thing im uncertain of though is you guys saying to go with powered speakers? yes they're more compact but if I have the poweramps already, why would i want to go active instead of passive?

 

Plus since I have the subs already, and if I got powered mains, wouldnt I still need a crossover to run them both?

 

the specs on my subs are : http://eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_detail.asp?web_detail_link=OMEGAPRO-18C&speaker_size=18&SUB_CAT_ID=1

 

they are in home made boxes. Front firing, vented. I have no clue how to measure these things correctly but they do pound nicely.

 

One other question that comes to mind is, since I have the subs, do I really need to go with a dual 12 and horn? or would say a 15 and horn be sufficient? The sub boxes have a pole mount as well

 

**edit** -- how about these? http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=LS1502

[stevieb]

I totally disagree with the advice to go with powered speakers:

 

At a gig, amp goes out, you are done for. No one is going to carry a spare set of powered speakers in case that happens- too much space taken up. Separate power amps/speakers: speakers don't go out unless you abuse them; usually true of power amps, too, but it can be all too easy to mess up and do just that, having a spare power amp takes up far less room.

 

You need to run TWO cables to each self-powered speaker- audio feed and AC power.

 

I don't care for powered mixers much, either. One device/one thing done is my rule, overall.

 

If you disagree, fine, go ahead and disagree all you want. I am not watching this thread, I know what works for me and am not interested in feedback in this case.

[GCDEF]

 

The mains from seismic are the cheap chineese stuff, but they're cheap! and they have full warrenty so if it breaks, it gets replaced. I know it can be a bit of a gamble but who knows? maybe these guys are the next jbl's? but i do agree, I have been thinking of other products I can use. One thing im uncertain of though is you guys saying to go with powered speakers? yes they're more compact but if I have the poweramps already, why would i want to go active instead of passive? Plus since I have the subs already, and if I got powered mains, wouldnt I still need a crossover to run them both?

 

 

I'd assume you'd also want to sound reasonably good. I prefer powered speakers. Even if one does die, you can still limp through a gig with one speaker if you have to. I find they're simpler and easier to use, store, transport and set up, and I just don't understand the argument that running power to them is an inconvenience. It's not really that difficult.

[abzurd]

 

I'd assume you'd also want to sound reasonably good. I prefer powered speakers. Even if one does die, you can still limp through a gig with one speaker if you have to. I find they're simpler and easier to use, store, transport and set up, and I just don't understand the argument that running power to them is an inconvenience. It's not really that difficult.

 

 

Yep - The vast majority of people would get MUCH better sound running powered speakers than collecting amps, processors, and speakers and trying to optimize.

 

As far as reliability goes. The lowest common denominator of anything is going to be unreliable. The speakers the OP is talking about are pretty much as bottom of the barrel as it gets. They simply won't sound good, and will have a higher chance of failure. Warranty? First off, if that's the first thing you scrutinize, and in this case seemingly the only thing, on some level you know that you're making an unwise purchasing decision. As far as reaping benefits from the warranty..... Good luck with that. Shipping anywhere would be more than the repair is worth. If you blew a woofer, any ol' "hole filler" speaker would be cheaper, and likely better quality, than what it comes with.

[agedhorse]

The reliability of quality powered speakers for your application (nnob DJ) is going to be much higher with powered speakers than seperates. Less points of failure and less points where you can screw things up.

 

Unless the sub box is properly designed (your comments, plus my experiences with home made boxes I encounter on service calls), figure the real power handling to be about 400 watts RMS given the likely potential for mechanical damage beyond this point. Where you run the attenuators on the amps do not dictate how much the power amp will deliver BTW.

[dennis a]

 

You need to run TWO cables to each self-powered speaker- audio feed and AC power.

 

How about this

[popgadget]

With decent Subs, a single 12 would probably sound better than a dual 12 or a 15

[drooldud]

i'm appreciating the feedback here. its all good and its nice to hear differing views

 

as it stands i have already invested the money into the amps and subs so I think i'm going to stick with what i currently have. Your opinions are duley noted and respected, but I'm a bit of a sound whore and i'm pretty sure I can make them sound good. I'm a big tweaker and have a very good ear so I THINK i'll be safe (however I suppose i wont know for sure until I get to use it all)

 

My main focuses right now are

 

a) the way i said to hook everything up is correct, right?

b) Dual 12's15's mains vs. single 1215 mains?

c) Which passives do you think are a good match to the qsc powerlight 1.4? Which brands do you prefer? Who gives the most bang for the buck? are the carvins I linked garbage?

 

Again, all feedback is appreciated, even if it differs from my own opinions

 

 

Also, how come what I'm looking at (the seismic audio stuff) such garbage? does anyone here have any experience with them? i urge you to check youtube videos of there PA equipment. I know the price is cheap, and it's using chineese stuff, but why is this so much worse than other companies? What about Phonic? They are cheap but I've had good experiences with them. Or in terms of relating this to bassguitar gear, A company like Avatar? They sell there stuff cheaper than the big names but everyone loves them?

[agedhorse]

 

Also, how come what I'm looking at (the seismic audio stuff) such garbage? does anyone here have any experience with them? i urge you to check youtube videos of there PA equipment. I know the price is cheap, and it's using chineese stuff, but why is this so much worse than other companies? What about Phonic? They are cheap but I've had good experiences with them. Or in terms of relating this to bassguitar gear, A company like Avatar? They sell there stuff cheaper than the big names but everyone loves them?

 

 

If you are asking these questions, yet call yourself a sound whore and a tweaker with a good ear, either you are the most amazing bull{censored}ter or a total noob as you originally suggested. Hence our suggestions that powered speakers might be a better approach. It's doubtful (at best) that you can make passive speakers spound better than the powered ones because you do not have access to the test data and processing used in most quality powered speakers on the market.

 

Go ahead and buy the cheap Chinese junk (I bet you have already bought them anyway) and prove us wrong. This should be fun for some of us and enlightening for the rest of you. It's always cheaper learning on other folk's money.

[dennis a]

 

This should be fun for some of us

 

Yup...already is.

[Shaster]

So far most of the stuff you've considered could be judged as less than desirable.

 

Products like Siesmic Audio, Phonic, Nady (I realize you haven't mentioned it yet) aren't at the top, or even the middle, of most people's lists. Some people use some Carvin products but they might be an acquired taste. For speakers I personally wouldn't start there, others might disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

I believe the thinking here is that you've got your subs (and they wouldn't sell for much) and you've got two amps. Getting rid of one amp and going to powered mains would at least have you halfway there.

 

As stated, the powered mains have been internally corssed over, limited, EQ'd, and tweaked by speaker and amp designers. They are going to sound better than the average passive cab of similar or exact level.

 

Suggested brands, JBL (but not the JRX line) QSC, EV, Yorkville, Peavey, maybe even Mackie - oh wait I've already said that. Probably left out a few brands but you get the picture.

 

Dual 12's might be nice but quality cabs of that size are very expensive. The extra weight and size might be an issue with you, not sure.

 

And unless you get all powered with subs that have crossovers, then yes a mix of passive subs and powered top cabs would still "require" a crossover.

[Bobby1Note]

Drooldud,

 

Let's imagine for a minute, that you're a business man. Your target market is the bottom rung of the ladder. Let's say,,,, $200./ speaker.

 

Now, that speaker, at that price, has to provide a profit not only to the retailer, but also the distributor/wholesaler, and the manufacturer. There are also marketing/advertising costs, warehousing/handling, and shipping/distribution.

 

Now, how much do you think the manufacturer will spend on internal components? He certainly isn't going after the guys-in-the-know, so he only has to make them "look" like a real PA speaker, and serve up a bit of bull{censored}/hype in the sales pitch. Buzz words and cliches. Warranty????? Hah !!!! Warranties require a service network, parts, etc, Do you really think that a warranty is worth the paper it's written on?

 

Reliability.... What's that worth??? Imagine you suddenly go quiet right in the middle of a show. What do you tell your audience? For that matter, "how" do you tell them the show's over? Whatever it is, I'm sure the venue owner/ promoter, will be tickled pink,,,dontcha think?

 

Give those points some thought, and good luck in your quest.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I totally disagree with the advice to go with powered speakers: At a gig, amp goes out, you are done for. No one is going to carry a spare set of powered speakers in case that happens- too much space taken up. Separate power amps/speakers: speakers don't go out unless you abuse them; usually true of power amps, too, but it can be all too easy to mess up and do just that, having a spare power amp takes up far less room. You need to run TWO cables to each self-powered speaker- audio feed and AC power. I don't care for powered mixers much, either. One device/one thing done is my rule, overall. If you disagree, fine, go ahead and disagree all you want. I am not watching this thread, I know what works for me and am not interested in feedback in this case.

 

 

I'm sure nobody cares that you're so closed-minded. So I'll respond for the rest of us who are perhaps willing to consider other viewpoints.

 

Your argument fails because you only addressed an amp failure. If a speaker were to fail, the user is in the same predicament. If one is going to carry spares, they need to carry an extra amp and an extra speaker. Your argument is that "nobody" is going to carry a spare set of powered speakers. Why would the same person. carry a spare set of passive speakers and an amp?

 

Since you're not watching this thread, maybe someone else will enlighten me.

[drooldud]

i understand the anonnimity of the internet where anybody can say what they wish but questioning my knowledge is very unnessecary. I'm trying to keep this constructive.

 

MY level of knowledge includes:

 

I worked for a recording studio

I worked for a radio station

I went through broadcasting college

I'm a bass player (and drummer, and guitarist and singer)

I'm the tech for everyone in my bands

I also was a mobile DJ at one point for a local company

and I have a very well trained ear, near perfect pitch

 

The last part being what has helped me in the studio as I can catch the wrong note, and i can catch the unflattering EQ

 

It has also allowed me to work with less than optimal gear and fine tune it to a point where it is better than just usable, and I get complimented on my sound

 

Now that being said, what is NOT in my list is a live sound man. I have ran boards for friends at shows but this was using house systems that I had no clue of what they were running

 

 

I dont want to step on peoples toes mainly because I dont have the experience you people have, and I came to you people with the questions, not vice versa. I'm just looking to gain some knowledge.

 

I guess I should also mention that what i'm more looking at is using this system for the odd wedding (or if you know what a manitoba social is) and parties, and my bands PA system for our rather large rehersal space.

 

This isnt a day in and day out system. I'm not looking at getting rich on using inferior products. I do feel as if the components I have already purchased are some smart buys.

 

I paid 300 for the crest power amp

i paid 220 for the qsc

i paid 330 for the subs (the speakers go for $200 new)

 

please, if I made a mistake thus far please tell me!

 

so if general consensus is that Seismic is out than I will take your words for it. I hate wasting money and I prefer to buy used quality rather than new cheap crap....but sometimes if you use new cheap crap paired with quality other components, you can get very descent results!

 

The local pawn shop has some JBL dual 12 inch mains for about $500. So that might be my best bet for the extra couple hundred.

 

More than anything though is I still havent heard anyone chime in with there experiences with the cheap crap. And cheap crap varies in how crappy it is.

 

When I worked as a DJ for a few months one summer (showing my age now...this one summer...when i was a DJ!...) We used QSC amp ( was about 600 watts stereo 4 ohms, dont remember model) and passive JBL dual 12 inch mains, full range cabs (cant remember watts, i assume they were matched correctly) and all we were doing was playing cd's through it. There was no compressors, no limiters, no EQ (other than what was on out really {censored}ty mixer) nothing, And for playing cd quality music, it was great. It was loud, it was clear, and it did the job.

 

It's that type of functionality that I am looking for, and also something that can double up as a PA system for my bands

 

 

My apologies for the un-clarity at the beginnig of the thread

[agedhorse]

The 2 x 12" JBL's (assuming they are working correctly and have the proper components) are in a totally different class from the other speakers you are looking at or already own. A MUCH better option long term, if weight is not an object.

[abzurd]

Considering that the bottom and midlines of JBL don't come in dual 12's, you were likely using something like an SRX722. If that's the case it's night and day from the cabinets being considered. I don't care how good your ear is, what you are considering isn't really capable of truly sounding "good". Tolerable? .... maybe. Good?.... nope.

[Axisplayer]

I don't mean this to be insulting, but I have to ask. If you have an ear and can make anything sound good, have you spent more than a few hundred dollars on gear for your studio? Are you getting great results with Phonic and Nady in the studio? If you are actually investing money in the studio, consider that live audio is MUCH more demanding of gear. It will be hit, dowsed with drinks, subjected to heat and cold, bounced in trailers, and more, and then be expected to sound good and work reliably.

 

Live audio gear is as much about surviving the show as it is sound quality of the show. I would suspect there are many products in a studio that would not last a month in a live audio environment due to build quality. In a studio, you pay for sound quality. Live, you pay for sound quality and then more for the durability required.

 

Most of my gear is probably not good enough to EVER be considered for a studio, but every piece I own was bought with an eye toward surviving to do another show.

[drooldud]

so i looked up the jbl model and that looks dead on. Local pawn shop has them up for sale @ 558 or something around that.

 

I'm guessing these are betther than I thought?

 

So now after looking these up, should I power these quys with my crest, sell off the qsc and subs and just use these guys?

 

Would my subwoofers still be nessecary?

 

Should i stick with subs and go for single 12's as tops to my subs?

[abzurd]

 

so i looked up the jbl model and that looks dead on. Local pawn shop has them up for sale @ 558 or something around that. I'm guessing these are betther than I thought? So now after looking these up, should I power these quys with my crest, sell off the qsc and subs and just use these guys? Would my subwoofers still be nessecary? Should i stick with subs and go for single 12's as tops to my subs?

 

 

They go for around $1500 each and you're seriously asking if they'll be better than the $140 speakers you are looking at? If the speakers are in good shape and you're talking about $558 for the pair then get in your car and go buy them right now! Even if they are $558 each, I'd still be squealing the tires trying to get over there.

 

As for bass, you still need subs.

[Shaster]

Your lucky you don't have your location posted or there would be flocks of HC'ers dashing around town to find those speakers. If they are for real (and not stolen, or blown to bits) you've got one of the deals of the century.

 

Worry about your amps later.

[drooldud]

Bah! JBL TR225, Dual 15 inch spkrs, not 12's. Apparently these guys went for 280 new each? Anyone have any experience?

[agedhorse]

Ahh, see how the IMPORTANT information is in the details?

 

The TR225's went new for about $500-600 each typically.

 

Where are you getting all your information???