Members ShiftChange564 Posted October 12, 2010 Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 Just put money down on a barely used MixWiz16:2 due to the praise it gets from this forum. We were using a Mackie CFX12. (i know chalk one up for another mackie mixer upgrade) Main reason for the upgrade was more monitor mixes and additional channels. I'm looking over how to integrate the new mix wiz mixer into my current setup and wondering if it's time to buy real outboard gear (comp/gates/limters and EQ). With the old mackie we used the channel inserts for a ringer MDX4600. We used comp for vocals and gates for drum mics etc... usually able to get it to sound decent. Never used any outboard EQ, the mackie had a 7 band for the mains. This summer we played some gigs where we had a lot of trouble with feedback from monitors. We use a yorkie powered mixer with on board 7 band Eq for the two monitors mixes from the CFX12. This proved to work ok but most times too complicated and inadequate. I'd rather keep it simple if possible. With the new mixer we will want to run 4 monitor mixes (3 wedges and 1 IEM). What outboard gear will I need to run this setup to get decent GBF? we use 835s and 58s mics. I'm assuming a EQ of some type... What's decent to use dbx? How do I connect it to the mix wiz for the aux sends? I noticed there are no inserts for the Aux sends. However, there are for the mains. Until I have enough $$ to get more amps to drive the wedges i will probably have to continue to use the yorkie powered mixer to drive the wedges, but I should be able to use the direct line in to the amp, bypassing all the processing of the yorkie's mixer section once i have the proper outboard processing gear connected to the mix wiz. We are a 4 piece rock cover band and usually don't play for crowds bigger than 150. Just looking for some suggestions... BTW we do have a person that can run sound for us, she is still learning. I usually set it up during sound check and she monitors the mix for the gig. I notice that the vocals seem to be weak in the mix when out on the dance floor with my guitar, i assume that is because she is monitoring the mix right off the board with headphones and not allowing for the extra guitar/drum volume produced from the stage and backline. We haven't ventured into getting a snake yet to split up the FOH gear and amps, it maybe time to do that also. FOH gear: 2 EV sx300s, 2 Yammy SW118s, Crown XLS 602 (mains), QSC GX5 for subs. Behringer MDX4600, Behringer crossover (100hz) Monitor gear: 2 Yammy BR-12s (may be upgrading these) 1 galaxy hotspot and 1 wired IEM from a headphone amp. sorry for the long post. As usual much appreciated for any suggestions/help u guys can offer. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 12, 2010 Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 Get a 31 band eq for each separate monitor mix and run them on the aux send pre-fade in between the mixer and amp. I recommend a DBX 231 0r 1231 if want the long throw faders, is the only difference from what I been told here.Not sure about the IEM ?Then go over on goobers guild sticky and look for my post on the feedback trainer link I posted, and download it and practice. That way you won't be frying monitors trying to learn how to ring out the monitors. Also speaker and mic placement can do wonders for ridding feedback depending if your your stage volume is at a decent sound level.Not saying to play at a whisper, because playing rock at a whisper totally freaking sucks, just use common sense on the stage volume. For comps and gates insert where needed.I know some of the mixwiz's have delays and reverbs and some don't.If no reverb and delay on yours, then use 5&6 for your reverb and delay unit. Congratulation on your new mixwiz purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schismpunk Posted October 12, 2010 Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 I hope you have a limiter in place for the IEMs. Using IEMs from a headphone amp directly can be dangerous without protection. Also, how hard is the GX5 working? That's not a lot of juice for those subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted October 12, 2010 Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 I hope you have a limiter in place for the IEMs. Using IEMs from a headphone amp directly can be dangerous without protection. Great point. One mistake there and you have permanent hearing damage. Trust me, tinnitus is not something you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted October 12, 2010 Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 I woud have her mix without the headphones. The headphones let her know what's coming through the board, but the room etc etc will make things sound different. I agree with stage volume. You do need volume, but it doesn't have to be crazy loud on stage by any means. I do sound for this one band now and then, and it's a bit frustrating. The guitar player just wants to use his amp, and not have it mic'd and the keyboard player doesn't have a keyboard amp. She uses the monitors, and it has to be pretty loud, because the guitar is loud. Plus her voice is hard to do as well. It's just really shrill. The drummer is a real heavy hitter, lots of cymbals, but that's not really a big deal, other than they have to play above it, also raising their stage volume. I suggested after that she buy or rent a keyboard amp. That way she can use it as her personal monitor, and I can still take a DI signal for the FOH. They say they always have problems with the monitors, wherever they go, and I suggested that's why. The other band, is a pure joy to mix. Sensible stage volume, the bass player is amazing and so musical. Everything sounds great through the monitors for them and also out front. No feedback from either group, though it was getting close with the first group. And they are pretty much the only group that happens with. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 12, 2010 Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 I woudmhave her mix without the headphones. The headphones let her know what's coming through the board, but the room etc etc will make things sound different. I agree with stage volume. You do need volume, but it doesn't have to be crazy loud on stage by any means. I do sound for this one band now and then, and it's a bit frustrating. The guitar player just wants to use his amp, and not have it mic'd and the keyboard player doesn't have a keyboard amp... (more) Good call strat on headphone mixing. I know he mention they don't have a snake. So she mixing real close to the stage but she needs to go out in the room and walk around and cue the mix from the crowds perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShiftChange564 Posted October 12, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 I hope you have a limiter in place for the IEMs. Using IEMs from a headphone amp directly can be dangerous without protection.Also, how hard is the GX5 working? That's not a lot of juice for those subs. Thanks for the tip on the limiter for the IEM, didn't even think of that. What would the signal path be then, Aux -> EQ -> Limiter -> amp? Do i even need an EQ on that aux since it's for an IEM? My understanding is the GX5 does 500watts into 8ohms per side. I'm running the subs one per side, so they are getting the full 500 watts. Figured that was plenty for a sub that's 300/600/1200. Am i wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShiftChange564 Posted October 12, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 I know some of the mixwiz's have delays and reverbs and some don't.If no reverb and delay on yours, then use 5&6 for your reverb and delay unit. Congratulation on your new mixwiz purchase yes this one has the FX built in Thanks again can't wait to try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShiftChange564 Posted October 12, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 Good call strat on headphone mixing. I know he mention they don't have a snake. So she mixing real close to the stage but she needs to go out in the room and walk around and cue the mix from the crowds perspective. Yeah we don't have a snake, I'm thinking of renting a 16x8 100ft for the next gig to see how that works. Hopefully the mix will be better, if so I'll push the guys hard on picking up a snake. I would probably look at audiopile first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 12, 2010 Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 Thanks for the tip on the limiter for the IEM, didn't even think of that. What would the signal path be then, Aux -> EQ -> Limiter -> amp? Do i even need an EQ on that aux since it's for an IEM?My understanding is the GX5 does 500watts into 8ohms per side. I'm running the subs one per side, so they are getting the full 500 watts. Figured that was plenty for a sub that's 300/600/1200. Am i wrong? Your fine just don't drive the snot out of them and watch your gain structure. Here's you a good video from tech guru Dave Ratt on gain structure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 12, 2010 Members Share Posted October 12, 2010 A 31 band EQ would be best on any amp channels; left/right get 1 each and 1 each for each monitor mix, the IEM doesn't really need one. I don't know what to recommend for a limiter, a channel of cheapie whatever would work or not. The GX5 is perfect for that sub, between 400-600 per cone is about right. Even 2 per channel would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 13, 2010 Members Share Posted October 13, 2010 Also, how hard is the GX5 working? That's not a lot of juice for those subs. It's plenty, and even more thhan enough. Certainly no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schismpunk Posted October 13, 2010 Members Share Posted October 13, 2010 My understanding is the GX5 does 500watts into 8ohms per side. Bad research on my part. For some reason thought the GX5 was 500 watts into 4. Silly, considering I use one daily... A lot of people (even non-amp producers ) recommend you use an amp that can produce one and a half to double the RMS rating of the speaker. I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject, but maybe Aged or someone with some electronics background could chime in. Sweetwater's explanation I realize they want you to buy more power, but it's a convincing argument. I agree that you don't need EQ on your in-ears unless you feel you do. Hopefully you're using some buds with a reasonably flat response. Your proposed signal path for the IEMs would work just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted October 13, 2010 Members Share Posted October 13, 2010 To get you to buy a larger, more expensive amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 13, 2010 Members Share Posted October 13, 2010 Gotta say they want you to buy big amps. (from the website)Power Generally you should pick an amplifier that can deliver power equal to twice the speaker's continuous IEC power rating. This means that a speaker with a "nominal impedance" of 8 ohms and a continuous IEC power rating of 350 watts will require an amplifier that can produce 700 watts into an 8 ohm load. For a stereo pair of speakers, the amplifier should be rated at 700 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted October 13, 2010 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2010 mixer with on board 7 band Eq for the two monitors mixes from the CFX12. Those terriers will do anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShiftChange564 Posted October 13, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 13, 2010 Those terriers will do anything... Just keeps on going, probably the oldest piece of gear I have, very reliable swiss army knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 13, 2010 Members Share Posted October 13, 2010 Gotta say they want you to buy big amps.(from the website)Power Generally you should pick an amplifier that can deliver power equal to twice the speaker's continuous IEC power rating. This means that a speaker with a "nominal impedance" of 8 ohms and a continuous IEC power rating of 350 watts will require an amplifier that can produce 700 watts into an 8 ohm load. For a stereo pair of speakers, the amplifier should be rated at 700 watts per channel into 8 ohms. I have reconed enough of those drivers to say without doubt that 700 watts is way beyond their mechanical capabilities. It's essentially a Kappa Pro, not a terribly robust driver but plenty good powered at 400 watts or less, limiters on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShiftChange564 Posted October 14, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 14, 2010 I have reconed enough of those drivers to say without doubt that 700 watts is way beyond their mechanical capabilities. It's essentially a Kappa Pro, not a terribly robust driver but plenty good powered at 400 watts or less, limiters on. Would it be a good rule of thumb to always have limiters in the signal path before any amplification? We have in the past with mains and such but just thinking now that I'm adding monitor mixes so should I be picking up limiters for each of those as well? For sure with the IEMs as noted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 14, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted October 14, 2010 Would it be a good rule of thumb to always have limiters in the signal path before any amplification? We have in the past with mains and such but just thinking now that I'm adding monitor mixes so should I be picking up limiters for each of those as well? For sure with the IEMs as noted above. Yes, and if you get amps that are sized approprately for the monitors, you can look for amps that have built-in limiting, which will save you money and rack space...and the trouble of trying to adjust them correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 14, 2010 Members Share Posted October 14, 2010 Yes, and if you get amps that are sized approprately for the monitors, you can look for amps that have built-in limiting, which will save you money and rack space...and the trouble of trying to adjust them correctly. Yes always a good idea and Craig's suggestion is the ideal follow-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 14, 2010 Members Share Posted October 14, 2010 Would it be a good rule of thumb to always have limiters in the signal path before any amplification? We have in the past with mains and such but just thinking now that I'm adding monitor mixes so should I be picking up limiters for each of those as well? For sure with the IEMs as noted above. Most of today's modern amps already have built in limiters like the GX amp you have. IMO it's probabaly a good idea if you need a amp to power your wedges stay with the QSC brand. The warranty pretty much speaks for itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted October 14, 2010 Members Share Posted October 14, 2010 Thanks for the tip on the limiter for the IEM, didn't even think of that. What would the signal path be then, Aux -> EQ -> Limiter -> amp? Do i even need an EQ on that aux since it's for an IEM?My understanding is the GX5 does 500watts into 8ohms per side. I'm running the subs one per side, so they are getting the full 500 watts. Figured that was plenty for a sub that's 300/600/1200. Am i wrong? Many EQs have built in limiting that you can use for your IEM send. I use the DBX 2231 in the signal path of the IEM mix for the drummer of my wife's band. Winston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 14, 2010 Members Share Posted October 14, 2010 Many EQs have built in limiting that you can use for your IEM send. I use the DBX 2231 in the signal path of the IEM mix for the drummer of my wife's band.Winston I would offer that very few eq's have limiting built in. The 2231 is one of only a couple that I am familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShiftChange564 Posted October 14, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 14, 2010 Many EQs have built in limiting that you can use for your IEM send. I use the DBX 2231 in the signal path of the IEM mix for the drummer of my wife's band.Winston Wonder why the price on the dbx2231 is soo much more than the dbx231? other than the built in limiter... I would probably save the difference and buy an amp with limiting. I do have a couple MDX 4600s that I could use one of the strips for the IEM limit job. Anyone have luck with the new Drive Core XLS amps from Crown? Looks like the 1000 model would fit the bill nicely for what I need to drive wedges. Nice to know the GX5 has built in limiter, there's no way of adjusting it though that I can see. Apparently it detects clipping and auto attenuates the gain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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