Wireless FOH -- Why aren't we there yet?

[abzurd]

 

You do not need a control surface to run an iLive stagebox/mixer.

 

 

What do you use? Is it purely a wifi application that does it?

[RoadRanger]

What do you use? Is it purely a wifi application that does it?

Telepathy.

 

 

Seriously you can use the iPad app but I'd supplement that with a hardwired PC. I suppose one could get away without a control surface this way for their own band but I'd not want to do this as a general provider and especially in a multiband situation .

[abzurd]

Telepathy. Seriously you can use the iPad app but I'd supplement that with a hardwired PC. I suppose one could get away without a control surface this way for their own band but I'd not want to do this as a general provider and especially in a multiband situation .

 

Exactly my thoughts.... you could do it, but practically speaking no reputable provider would show up to a gig with no control surface. You're only as good as your weakest link and, on topic with the thread, reliability of the wireless part is that weak link. You'd suffer some serious reputation problems if a show had to end prematurely because wifi crapped out or you forgot to charge your iPad.

[agedhorse]

Except for the little reliability problem and range issues in the 2.4 GHz band.

 

 

Was again thinking about the networked solutions that have been bantered about.

 

The Line 6 solution would be about the same as the analog solutions I proposed.

[dboomer]

 

The Line 6 solution would be about the same as the analog solutions I proposed.

 

 

Except the sn ratio and frequency response and the transient response would be a lot better. If you wanted to spend a bunch more there is a lectrosonics system that would fit the bill as well.

[agedhorse]

Except the sn ratio and frequency response and the transient response would be a lot better. If you wanted to spend a bunch more there is a lectrosonics system that would fit the bill as well.

 

 

Perhaps somewhat better... depends on what's needed. The S/N ratio of the AT M3 system is plenty good fo 95% of the typical users, as is the frequency response (unless subs are really important and even then I was able to eq back to flat down to 40Hz with a small amount of LF shelf eq. Transient response is not correctable but for many applications it may no6t even be noticed (though for applications with lots of cymbals it could produce some artifacts).

[BenBroChill]

my problem is this. You mentioned why it cant be as simple as a total of $50?

 

I frequently get paid to handle frequency coordination. Last job included 148 channels of Shure UHF-R (134 Breakout 12 Main 2 outside) 16 channels of IEM (8 on main stage and 8 outside for soundscape and Acoustic Duo) and 10 channels of comm. not to mention the hotels pre existing comm systems and DTV in Orlando. That was plenty to handle for me and even after 2 days of prep I had 2 dropped channels (thankfully not during show!)

 

Now imagine trying to have all the 57 breakout rooms, main, and soundscape added to your channel count about 156 added if 1 ch. = 1 speaker. totaling close to 300 channels, not including the main which was L-C-R of DV-DOSC's and 4 delay hangs of 115XT's. and 6 wedges. (36 more channels)

 

I know you said small but technically those B/O are 2 mics, a mixer, and 2 speakers per room. Which is small.

 

The point here is that there is an application for each product and this is one of the reasons everyone doesnt just use powered speakers. Being able to choose when, where and how to implement a product is key. If you notice the all-in-one packaging isnt usually the best or quality because if you put a "good" wireless inside a "good" cabinet with "good" components and a "good" amp that has "good" onboard processing you are now looking at a REALLY good chunk of change.

[dboomer]

Perhaps somewhat better... depends on what's needed.

OK ... but by the numbers there is 28 dB sn ratio better, about 2 1/2 octaves extension in the bass and almost 1/2 octave in the HF, 30 times less distortion. There is no direct way I know of to quantify the transient response, but there is a significant difference if you are running drums, percussion and acoustic or electric guitar that is easily heard unless you have a very muddy system. You can also throw in a true diversity antenna system. Oh yeah ... and almost a 40% savings in cost

[agedhorse]

Frequency response in REAL WORLD applications needs to consider the desired system HPF, I usually use around 35-40Hz unless is a substantial system with lots of sub headroom, so between say 35Hz and the -3dB point of the AT being 60Hz at -3dB, that puts us at under 1 octave and using 40Hz, that's ~1/2 octave. Who cares about 10Hz. Really, that's bordering on silly IMO. The HF response is a somewhat minor issue, most good pro audio speakers are -3dB at 15kHz, and the application of DSP helps, just like adding a little HF eq. Not perfect but not a game stopper either.

Since noise floor is not an issue with the analog system, the benefit of a lower noise floor is also a benefit of less than practical importance (in many applications anyway, I'm not going to claim that it's not beneficial for some applications)

The biggest improvement between the digital and analog platforms is probably the companding dynamic range WITH a broadband signal, but this is hard to quantity.

The distortion is a pretty minor point, 1% at +/-20kHz modulation (FM) is pounding the modulator pretty hard. In real use, it's not audible.

Of course, on the M3 system there's 16 channels available in many parts of the country and using the aux. band (special order) that's another 16 channels. By marketingspeak, that's 32 RF channels to your 12 channels but for MOST users this again is insignificant.

[Dogoth]

no reputable provider would show up to a gig with no control surface. You're only as good as your weakest link and, on topic with the thread, reliability of the wireless part is that weak link. You'd suffer some serious reputation problems if a show had to end prematurely because wifi crapped out or you forgot to charge your iPad.

 

 

This isn't absolutly true (although partly). I know a major contractor who (if providing mix engineers) often shows up to a gig with either a PM5D (control surface for monitors) and a touchscreen notebook or a DSP5D and two touchscreens. It is true that most national touring acts won't accept this but for a lot of regional & festival systems (some quite large) this is how they do it. I've only heard of a couple of instances where the g series wireless router dropped out and didn't re-aquire. From a personal standpoint, I wouldn't mind mixing this way (as long as there IS a control surface as a backup) but I think Yamaha's software UI is a POS (sorry about too many acronyms :-). We do simple shows this way all of the time with an 01V96 BUT they are usualy Trax smooth jazz shows with no more than 6 to 8 channels - a whole different level. IMO it's an easier setup by far but much more difficult to mix (the command latency is low but the screen update (metering, fader position etc... is slow (like 1 second or so)).

 

I think there IS a future for this kind of system (I know this thread was originaly about digital AUDIO transmission and not control functions) but as in GOOD dependable wireless mics, for it to be reliable, it won't be cheap.

[Scodiddly]

As somebody who works quite a bit with wireless, including the occasional gig as "RF tech", I'm very happy to run wires to things that don't need to be wireless.

[Bajazz]

Bajazz, It's obvious from your comments that the pro sound industry doesn't get it. You think we are all bumbling idiots ...

WOW, dude! To much coffee????

[agedhorse]

WOW, dude! To much coffee????

 

 

Read your post, you trivialized everything that we deal with on a day to day basis.

[karlw]

This isn't absolutly true (although partly). I know a major contractor who (if providing mix engineers) often shows up to a gig with either a PM5D (control surface for monitors) and a touchscreen notebook or a DSP5D and two touchscreens. It is true that most national touring acts won't accept this but for a lot of regional & festival systems (some quite large) this is how they do it. I've only heard of a couple of instances where the g series wireless router dropped out and didn't re-aquire. From a personal standpoint, I wouldn't mind mixing this way (as long as there IS a control surface as a backup) but I think Yamaha's software UI is a POS (sorry about too many acronyms :-). We do simple shows this way all of the time with an 01V96 BUT they are usualy Trax smooth jazz shows with no more than 6 to 8 channels - a whole different level. IMO it's an easier setup by far but much more difficult to mix (the command latency is low but the screen update (metering, fader position etc... is slow (like 1 second or so)). I think there IS a future for this kind of system (I know this thread was originaly about digital AUDIO transmission and not control functions) but as in GOOD dependable wireless mics, for it to be reliable, it won't be cheap.

 

 

I posted a link to a discussion about wireless network control on Pro Sound Web earlier in this thread, but it bears posting again since that discussion continues.

 

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,4212.10.html

[Bajazz]

Read your post, you trivialized everything that we deal with on a day to day basis.

Who do you mean by "We"? If you mean "Everyone", then you're right, I did. And by everyone, I mean everybody, including myself, which whom I used as a example in my post. If you don't mean "Everybody", but somebody who don't like being stepped on their toes, then go and read my post again!

[agedhorse]

Who do you mean by "We"? If you mean "Everyone", then you're right, I did. And by everyone, I mean everybody, including myself, which whom I used as a example in my post. If you don't mean "Everybody", but somebody who don't like being stepped on their toes, then go and read my post again!

We who work with or design this stuff professionally at the higher levels where there are real budgets, those of us MOST likely to be successful and we respect the difficulty and expense and do not trivialize it.

Reminds me of all the "engineers" who trivialized class D... until they were responsable for bringing a design to market. All of a sudden it wasn't so trivial. Several that I know of lost their jobs because of their flippant apporach and trivializing.

[KF650SB1000]

Exactly my thoughts.... you could do it, but practically speaking no reputable provider would show up to a gig with no control surface. You're only as good as your weakest link and, on topic with the thread, reliability of the wireless part is that weak link. You'd suffer some serious reputation problems if a show had to end prematurely because wifi crapped out or you forgot to charge your iPad.

 

 

 

I just worked with a band using a iPad2 and the iLive stage box. The system worked very well. If the Wifi drops for a second, the stage box doesn't shut off. If you had a Control Surface plugged into the stage box you can unplug the board from the stage box with no ill effects.

 

But as a BE; if I had the choice between a StudioLive desk and Laptop/iPad2/iLive stage box... I'm taking the Allen & Heath system; I can upload my saved scene and away I go. When I am out on tour, I mainly use an Avid/Digi SC48, Yamaha M7CL or PM5D... but I carry a LS9-16 as a back-up. If the provider says they are bringing a Roland, Presonus or Mackie desk, my LS9 is coming out of the case.

[RoadRanger]

But as a BE; if I had the choice between a StudioLive desk and Laptop/iPad2/iLive stage box... I'm taking the Allen & Heath system; I can upload my saved scene and away I go.

The lack of a memory card or flashdrive I/F on the StudioLive does seem to firmly plant it into the sub-pro world. Heck, even my 'ringer and Phonic digital mixers didn't screw that up (but recallable head amps would be nice ). BTW what do you hate about the Roland? I was somewhat considering one...

[KF650SB1000]

The lack of a memory card or flashdrive I/F on the StudioLive does seem to firmly plant it into the sub-pro world. Heck, even my 'ringer and Phonic digital mixers didn't screw that up (but recallable head amps would be nice ). BTW what do you hate about the Roland? I was somewhat considering one...

Roland is an OK mixing system, but makes up for it with all the available options. My biggest complaint last time I used the system was that the software is a clunky.