Vocals in the mix

[MattMayfield]

 

One trick that might help get the vocals louder in the mix is to 'double-buss' them.

 

 

That would indeed make the vocals louder, but personally, I would only ever use this as a last resort. I find it much cleaner and more straightforward to either turn down other instruments & turn up the main output, or turn up the gain on the vocal tracks & turn down their aux sends as needed.

[agedhorse]

That would indeed make the vocals louder, but personally, I would only ever use this as a last resort. I find it much cleaner and more straightforward to either turn down other instruments & turn up the main output, or turn up the gain on the vocal tracks & turn down their aux sends as needed.

 

 

Please explain how this would help if bleed into the vocal mics is causing the problem?

 

(PS... double-bussing was a "trick" used to increase the headroom on the summing buss and makeup gain amps in some older poorly designed or poorly understood consoles. EXACTLY the same result could be had by increasing the gain in any stage following the summing stages by 6dB, such as the master/line amp, the drive electronics, crossover or even all of the power amps.) It became the "cool trick", without most users understanding WHY it was done and what the other possible solutions were. I modified a couple of my old Yamaha consoles with an extra 6dB in the output differental line drivers for exactly the same results, and this freed up the busses to be used as designed. I then did this modification on quite a few more as word got out.

[twostone]

Not going to work. Another good try however. Things that have a chance of working are improved acoustic treatment behind drums and ceiling to deduce the first reflections off of these surfaces from entering the vocal mics, using mics that do not have extended or boosted HF response, and reducing the volume of the drummer and back line amps.

 

 

100% on reducing the drums but sometimes that's easier said then done. The back line amps is easy fix with a twist of a volume knob, but a drummer bashing away on drums who tells he doesn't know how to play softer what can you do? because I run across this from time to time and I don't carry acoustic treatment or a drum shield so again what can you do to solve a drummer bashing away?

[Phil Clark]

I read it as sincere. There are a lot of potential gottchas there, the more you learn the more you realize you don't know. Happens at all levels.

 

 

In my opinion the best sound men are the ones who DO realize that there is always more to learn. The day you think you know everything about live sound is the day you stop being good and start being a pain in some performers or venues ass.

[Phil Clark]

 

That would indeed make the vocals louder, but personally, I would only ever use this as a last resort. I find it much cleaner and more straightforward to either turn down other instruments & turn up the main output, or turn up the gain on the vocal tracks & turn down their aux sends as needed.

 

 

Ah, the famous "make something louder by making other things quieter" trick. This is probably the most under-utilitized tool in a sound mans arsenal. And in many cases, it is the most versatile and useful tool one can use.

[DBR]

I like the idea of using microphones with less high end. Our AKG is just that. However, when the wrong kind of voice gets on it, muddy vocal quality is present. I just need to tell the drummer to ease up on the beaters.

[minn12]

Please explain how this would help if bleed into the vocal mics is causing the problem? (PS... double-bussing was a "trick" used to increase the headroom on the summing buss and makeup gain amps in some older poorly designed or poorly understood consoles. EXACTLY the same result could be had by increasing the gain in any stage following the summing stages by 6dB, such as the master/line amp, the drive electronics, crossover or even all of the power amps.) It became the "cool trick", without most users understanding WHY it was done and what the other possible solutions were. I modified a couple of my old Yamaha consoles with an extra 6dB in the output differental line drivers for exactly the same results, and this freed up the busses to be used as designed. I then did this modification on quite a few more as word got out.

The OP stated he couldn't get the vocals loud enough, with the fader 'cranked'. He also stated he's had similar problems in the past. Double-bussing is not some ancient technique used on 'poorly designed' consoles, and it does NOT "increase headroom". It can be used to increase the output of vocals without altering the gain stages of a properly tuned system. You wouldn't want to increase the gain by 6db somewhere else, as a system that has been properly tuned should have the console and all gain stages beyond it set to clip at the same time. That way the sound tech knows exactly how much headroom he has at the console meters. Drum bleed into vocal mics is a common problem, but as we know, the 'loudest sound into a mic wins'. I have never had drum bleed drown out a singer who is singing into the mic. In the world of 'combat audio', you use every trick at your disposal to get the job done. In the OP's situation, it is something simple to try that he may not have considered and may solve his problem, assuming, as I stated, he has enough PA headroom. Of course, getting the drummer and/or band to turn down is the ideal solution, but as we know, that is not often the case. Sometimes you have to spend time riding the vocal faders to turn them down when there are no vocals just to try to tame the drum bleed. It would be interesting to have the OP try 'double bussing' at his next gig and see if it helps him in his particular situation or not. He has nothing to lose, and it may help solve his problem. Thanks for trying though.

[DBR]

MixWiz...no grouping available

[Mutha Goose]

...what can you do to solve a drummer bashing away?

 

 

 

grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; The courage to change the things I can; And wisdom to know the difference.

 

 

 

There is only so much a soundman can do. One of those things is to offer advice. It is up to the band to decide whether or not to take that advice.

[Phil Clark]

 

...so again what can you do to solve a drummer bashing away?

 

 

Do you have room to carry a machete?

[RoadRanger]

Do you have room to carry a machete?

Why? Did they limit the shotgun season on drummers again?

[Phil Clark]

I just figured a shotgun would be running counter to the main topic.

[agedhorse]

It would be interesting to have the OP try 'double bussing' at his next gig and see if it helps him in his particular situation or not. He has nothing to lose, and it may help solve his problem.

 

 

IMO, he has nothing to gain either.

 

The idea is to point the OP towards understanding where the problem is coming from, and how to minimize the effects. Then, he can progressively work on a real solution.

[minn12]

My original reply seems to have disappeared, but the bottom line is the OP posted a problem looking for help. Nothwithstanding all the hairsplitting, double-bussing is a legitimate tool that may or may not help solve his problem of getting the vocals on top of the mix, and it is used today, not just in the 'old days' of ancient consoles. People can disagree on how to set a system for proper gain structure, but many major manufacturers recommend the method I posted. The OP can decide which suggestions to try on his next gig. I hope he solves his problem, and reports back on which things he tried and which things worked or didn't work. It may also be the case that he just doesn't have enough PA for loud gigs.

[Izolde-Asia]

Hey all;

 

So, I've been away from the forum a bit the last couple weeks. Band was rehearsing for a big show which took place on the 2nd. Practice makes perfect.

 

So as an answer now to all the great advice received;

 

preface: I have not been back to the same venue. Just some that are bigger.

 

I have turned down the compression. Sometimes used none at all.

MORE time ringing out the room. I've started using RoomEQ Wizard, along with a Freq anal. in protools, and a FTA on my iPhone to help locate trouble freqs. I have been able to turn the amps up and pump out a lot more overall volume. This has in turn allowed me to have more headroom on my mixer. I also mixed everything slightly lower than normal, but kept the vocal dominant.

 

I picked up some tc-helicon products, the voiceworks plus, and the correct-xt. Without giving them a fullon review in this thread, I will say they are wonderful tools. the Correct-XT used with the main voc. mic is fantastic. Really helps shape it nicely, and great compression, especially for singers with little experience with live sound.

 

The voiceworks plus I picked up for different reasons, but decided to try it out. I mix everything in mono in the FOH. The Voiceworks plus has stereo out. So effectivly I get 2 chan of vocals coming out. It's not as dynamic as the correct-xt in the way it's not adjusting the EQ or compression, but it does allow for a little more umph in the vocals over all.

 

I'm still interested to go back to this venue and see how it works with my own rig. The stage was small, and there was so much bleed.

 

Thanks again to all the great advice on here. I f'n love this place.

[Dogoth]

Other than to stop overload of your mains (or some recording/broadcast mix) dynamics aren't ordinarily used for a mix output. If used for the aformentioned reasons it is usualy a hard limit with the threshold set just below where your amps clip. If you were driving everything into a limiter like that all night long, you need more P.A. (or the band has to turn down :-). Using softer knees, lower compression ratios & threshold settings, just wreaks havoc with the mix all night (something like what you were posting about).