Members Dogoth Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 The venue I work for booked in a local group's CD release party. The band is actualy pretty good and I was sort of looking forward to working with them BUT the band leader decided to beef up his show with an opener, then another, then another, and at the last minute, another. That's right 5 acts. Having a digital console I'm thinking, this should be no problem because I can save each act as a scene and away we go. The advancing was horrible and with all of the outguessing we could do (after 5 acts) we still fell short (we ended up swaping mics & DIs between acts to make it all work within the limitations of our system). The show starts and I'm informed that different people will be sitting in with different groups. Since each group was stored as a scene, the "sit in" channels were of course zero'd out. I ended up mixing 8 monitor mixes by the seat of my pants for a very long 3 hours (originaly the show was to be 1 1/2 hours). The FOH guy who communicated with the band about advance last week had said "after this date there will be NO CHANGES OR ADDITIONS". Obviously his words were not heeded and this bunch of idiots did what they wanted to anyway. Although I was very civil & professional, by the end of the evening, I felt like I didn't want to see any of these people again -EVER! This is what happens when managment doesn't keep a handle on (or even know where the handle is) the acts they book. I was thinking of writing a scathing letter to the entertainment director but feel that this is a better place to vent (I'll still write him a mild retort explaining why this shouldn't happen again). FWIW of the 20 or so odd musicians who performed. Most were good players but not one had a clue about the logistics involved in making such a complex show work well. They were all basicly happy with the stage sound - I thought it sucked at times (considering that when someone unbeknownst to me would walk on stage and wonder why their mic didn't work). Evidently this amature bunch of folks are used to this festival style sound but personaly I thought it sucked. I really feel like I already paid my dues working with rank amatures for years but I guess every once in a while you gotta get smacked in the face with something like this to appreciate working with professionals who know what they want and how to get it (that DID NOT include these people). The day is done and nobody got hurt so I guess all is OK again but danmed "I'm getting too old for this s**t" Thanks for letting me rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 See JRBLE, working with me isn't so bad after all. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bugzie Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 From one band to multiples.....Ching ching....festival pricing! I try to give the bands what they want, but surely charge for it. Time is money and I charge accordingly. P.S. If the bands happy with the sound, I try to never kick a sleeping dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 Sounds to me you did just fine. Before I started to do sound I remember seeing shows like this. Someone would come out and the mic wouldn't be on and I wouldn't think much about. Easy to see it was not planned and they got what they got. Combat audio teaches skills that are learned through the years. Also you learn how to keep it in a proper frame of mind. Getting nevered up or just mad sometimes makes things worse than realizing it is out of your hands and the client is getting more than they paid/ asked for. Most important part is to make sure at the end of the night the person who hired you has an idea as to what you went through. A "Sorry things were not 100% but with all the new changes that went on but I was not expecting them " type conversation will go a long way. Sometimes just you alone know things were not right and letting the person who is paying you know your side will go miles toward the next gig. Most of the time you'll get praise that you didn't expect. ( As it sounds like you did ) As sound people we always beat our selves up sometimes with no real reason. You got the show done and it sounds like you handled it well. I've seen some real train wreaks before and this doesn't sound like one. I never worry about the people who say they could have done better because it shows they care. The ones who say " Oh well it doesn't matter " need to find another line of work. I'm still beating myself up because I had 2 sec. of feedback in the first song last night.. Dookietwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted November 27, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 Combat audio? That's a pretty acurate description. No I didn't get mad at anyone at the time (that's just counterproductive). This is a case where I get paid by the hour so I didn't make any extra money (there should be a catagory called "combat pay" - I'll recommend ot :-). That's the issue in that neither the band(s) nor my managment has any clue that anything was wrong. Both just figure it's status quo. The real culprits for this is the venue's managment. I will for sure be sending a couple of "informational" emails out. I just want to make sure I'm cooled off enough to frame them properly :-). I don't believe the military sends it's battle hardened veterans out on point just for the practice :-). I'm already starting to see the humor of the situation (a view that I've found works well for me :-). I DO know that I don't want to be put into that frame of mind again anytime soon (at least not at my pay grade). cheers. BTW, I like working for you Tomm, IMO you are a very conscientious, intelligent fellow (attitude is everything - I'll try to keep mine in check :-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 Perhaps an "informational" invoice for the extra services incurred, along with those emails, might be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 The venue I work for booked in a local group's CD release party. The band is actualy pretty good and I was sort of looking forward to working with them BUT the band leader decided to beef up his show with an opener, then another, then another, and at the last minute, another. That's right 5 acts. 3 hours (originaly the show was to be 1 1/2 hours). the 20 or so odd musicians who performed. Most were good players but not one had a clue about the logistics involved in making such a complex show work well. 10 minutes per band change-over would normally be considered "pretty quick", but 20 musicians without a clue about logistics, I could see easily taking 20 minutes per band change-over (4 change-overs @ 20 minutes ea., and there's your 1 1/2hr. show). And I'd suspect the headliner would be into playing at least a 90 minute set. Did any of the warm-up bands actually have time enough to play a song (besides Napalm Death's "You Suffer"), or did you just change-over bands all night till the headliner got on stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scarecrowbob Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 Rant on man-- that is a stressful way to work. However, "Both just figure it's status quo." I spend a summer working in a venue where all that was status quo. Metal bands, 3-7 bands in a night, non-professional performers, fast changeovers. Everyone happy with crap. That's the gig at some places. "I don't want to be put into that frame of mind again anytime soon (at least not at my pay grade)." It's different if you just approach all that as "just part of the job". If you're getting paid by the hour and don't have to do anything that will mess you up in the long run (for instance, after meeting a lot of older guys with bad backs, I've limited my willingness to lift anything I don't have to-- not out of laziness, but rather out of self-preservation) then it really is just you doing your job. From the standpoint of the management, if everyone is happy at the end of the event who cares if the production crew felt stressed? If you need a higher hourly wage to feel good about it, then ask for it and don't do the job for less... but what you're describing is standard practice at least in some place I've worked. I've had a lot of jobs (including my current weekly club gig) where I show up and play with neat sound toys for free, and am getting paid to balance tall stacks of unrealistic, self-defeating, conflicting priorities. That's the job, and I will be a-okay when they find someone who will do it for less than what it's worth to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted November 27, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 10 minutes per band change-over would normally be considered "pretty quick", but 20 musicians without a clue about logistics, I could see easily taking 20 minutes per band change-over (4 change-overs @ 20 minutes ea., and there's your 1 1/2hr. show). And I'd suspect the headliner would be into playing at least a 90 minute set. Did any of the warm-up bands actually have time enough to play a song (besides Napalm Death's "You Suffer"), or did you just change-over bands all night till the headliner got on stage? Band change-overs took about 3 - 5 minutes (danmed I'm fast :-). There was two drum sets, two bass amps and two keyboard setups. Several of the DI lines served multiple purposes. Each of the warm up bands played 15-20 minutes. The opener did play around 90 minutes. There was only one repatch error on my part (I forgot to move the bass DI) which I rectfied in about 40 seconds. The funny part was when the second keyboard decided to "jam". All of the lines available were in use (the second key rig was one of the multi purposes). Tough luck for him, he just had to pose :-). Did I mention the last minute show of the multitrack recording guys who arrived and got patched into our split BETWEEN soundchecks :-). It was a true circus of a day. It was (in retrospect) fun to watch the animals perform :-). Like a bunch of monkeys with a football. If this had been booked as a "battle of the bands" kind of thing, I wouldn't have had any problem at all with it, but it was not. I guess my view of what a SHOW is differs from the muso's on stage that day (circus is much diferent than broadway :-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted November 27, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 I spend a summer working in a venue where all that was status quo. Metal bands, 3-7 bands in a night, non-professional performers, fast changeovers. Everyone happy with crap. What you say is true. I know it's just my pride that doesn't want to dish out crap. I know a bit about gourmet cooking and it bothered me to be made a fry cook for the day. I'm over it and I now and view it exactly as you said "hey it's just a job :-)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scarecrowbob Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 And recording folks showed up? I heard a neat term on the radio last week: "goat rodeo". I think it's good to not want to serve up crap. Pride in my work is super important to me, at least-- I can totally identify with you there. Luckily, as I move forward I've been able to price myself out of having to make crap... and gotten better at cooking with whatever is in the fridge, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ptkbass Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 Ha! I see your need for "combat pay". And yup, so many of those cats just have no sense of urgency when they're getting ready to play. Hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy for me to make suggestions 'cause I don't do sound. But if it were me, I'd treat it like the jam session that it was: Say No to multiple rigs. One bass rig. One drum kit. two or three guitar amps. one key rig. three vocal mics. Then let the players swap out willy-nilly. As a player who sometimes attends these events, I dread bringing my bass rig. The folks in charge of the party would likely be able to arrange for such gear sharing. Just make sure that there's easy access A/C so they can plug in their pedal board... Oh, sharing; that's sounds so nice.... Yes, I know that the one guy will show up with his gotta-have-it amp anyway. Bastard. Don't forget that it ain't gonna be Carnegie Hall. If the client was happy, that's good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 Good job keeping your cool man. It's hard to do, especially with the short fuse I have. I've run into this quite a few times. After 2 times of it I started telling the band that put everything together that any more than 3 bands was another set amount per band and the drums and bass needed to be backlined for the event. If drums and bass weren't backlined then that would be more money. My arguement to them was " You're not working for free and neither am I". If that wasn't acceptable they were free to find someone else. I'm more than willing to be flexible, but only to a certain point. After that there better be more cash coming my way or I'm out. I also made sure to let everyone that I could know that I needed input lists from everyone, and that if I didn't get one there might not be what they want on the stage. If that happened and there was time I'd do what was needed, but if there wasn't time and they slam me with stuff at the very last minute they might or might not get it. Once that point was made well known well in advance of the gig it pretty much negated any argument someone had if a line or something wasnt there. There are plenty of people that think I'm a complete dick, but I still get calls from several of these people because thay know I'll do a good job, they'll get their moneys worth, and with good equipmen that is kept up and isn't going to crap out at the gig. I can live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 I have a tough time with these kinds of shows. If they don't care enough about THEIR show do to do the basics to allow me to do a good job, why should I care. This is also a good example of a show where a digital console may not be the best choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 This ends up happening to me quite a bit, and there's really only one way to make this kind of thing work: all the bands use the same backline. Normally, headliner shows up and sets up their gear. We soundcheck, then after that all the other bands are using the headliner's backline. Changeovers are fast and for the most part, the mix stays the same. Every little while I'll get bands that whine that they're not using their drum kit or their guitar or bass amps. I just give them the choice to either use the backline provided, or stay the hell home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 JRBLE I was wondering---At the showroom, who is actually in charge of saying "NO" in these situations? When the band booked the event, who from J.A.N. took the info and gave them a price? Seems like the ball got dropped before you ever got blasted with this goat-f***. As the monitor engineer, doesn't seem like it should have been your mess to clean up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 Working conditions is one of the few things that a venue has some control of, be it penalty charges or withholding of deposit or whatever. When you get a goat f*ck of a show, it's up to the management and shop steward to have a way to compensate the crew for "above and beyond" If not, and it happens very often, the highest quality workers will begin to look for other job options. Life is just too short to deal with this kind of stiff very often without combat pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 I ended up mixing 8 monitor mixes by the seat of my pants for a very long 3 hours (originaly the show was to be 1 1/2 hours). That makes for a long day (or night)! I did a show last summer with 6 monitor mixes from FOH, not sure I would want to try 8 without a monitor console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 I ended up mixing 8 monitor mixes by the seat of my pants for a very long 3 hours (originaly the show was to be 1 1/2 hours). That makes for a long day (or night)! I did a show last summer with 6 monitor mixes from FOH, not sure I would want to try 8 without a monitor console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ptkbass Posted November 29, 2011 Members Share Posted November 29, 2011 This ends up happening to me quite a bit, and there's really only one way to make this kind of thing work: all the bands use the same backline. Normally, headliner shows up and sets up their gear. We soundcheck, then after that all the other bands are using the headliner's backline. Changeovers are fast and for the most part, the mix stays the same. Every little while I'll get bands that whine that they're not using their drum kit or their guitar or bass amps. I just give them the choice to either use the backline provided, or stay the hell home. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.