Members dboomer Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 The fader position has nothing at all to do with mixer headroom. It does in the sense that it lowers the operating level and therefore more amplitude is available before the onset of clipping. But it has nothing to do with the legend marks or that magic "0" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 It does in the sense that it lowers the operating level and therefore more amplitude is available before the onset of clipping. But it has nothing to do with the legend marks or that magic "0" but not in the sense that the comment was made. It does of course affect gain structure which if improper will affect headroom but my asumption was that gain structure was correct and not operator error induced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 I don't think this is that hard. Headroom is just the untapped reserve of anything in the signal chain. If something is clipping along the way either the gain structure isn't set up properly or there's not enough rig for the gig. Either way, you're out of headroom. Stripped down to practical purposes this is pretty much it, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 Man, I love this part of the forum! I feel smarter every day I read new threads here! Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 10, 2012 Members Share Posted February 10, 2012 I have noticed that my mixwiz tends to stay clean even with occasional red blips on the clip led's while my little Behringer has noticeable distortion when the clip lights come on. Having said this, I think that the reason to purchase a mixer has more to do with the quality of the mic preamps, the flexibility and usability of the channel eq, and the quality and reliability of the board (along with a few other features that are desired for various applications). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 10, 2012 Members Share Posted February 10, 2012 I have noticed that my mixwiz tends to stay clean even with occasional red blips on the clip led's while my little Behringer has noticeable distortion when the clip lights come on. Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder? Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven. Could be something as simple as the LEDs are mis-calibrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SoundMan Posted February 10, 2012 Members Share Posted February 10, 2012 Most likely, one shows actual clipping and the other is a clipping warning. We generally give a 2 or 3dB warning before actual clipping. Keeps people out of trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 10, 2012 Members Share Posted February 10, 2012 These go to eleven. Could be something as simple as the LEDs are mis-calibrated Yes, and it's on purpose. That's been my point several times. A&H gives 5 dB over the clip LED's and apparently Peavey 2-3 dB. I can tell you, on the inputs of the StudioLive anyway, Presonus doesn't give any room. If you hit the red it sounds like poo poo. I get that analog clipping is more friendly than digital, just saying there's no grace in their input metering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 10, 2012 Members Share Posted February 10, 2012 just saying there's no grace in their input metering. What's the point of your meters not telling the truth? You can handle the truth, right ... or was Jack Nicholson right? I think the issue is that users are not used to operating on calibrated systems and therefore they are not used to having accurate meters. So the "in the neighborhood" is close enough for them. Personally I like to know. As we move into the age of digital gear ... zero means zero, and I welcome it. It may require some old dogs to learn new tricks but the concept isn't very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 10, 2012 Members Share Posted February 10, 2012 What's the point of your meters not telling the truth? You can handle the truth, right ... or was Jack Nicholson right? I think the issue is that users are not used to operating on calibrated systems and therefore they are not used to having accurate meters. So the "in the neighborhood" is close enough for them. Personally I like to know. As we move into the age of digital gear ... zero means zero, and I welcome it. It may require some old dogs to learn new tricks but the concept isn't very difficult. What I'm saying isn't debatable though. It's irrelevant who prefers what. Manufactures sandbag their metering. My guess is it's the same with clip lights on amps as well. I dont' see digital being any different. Zero only means zero if in fact it is zero! The difference with digital is you know when you hit zero because you can hear the big farting noise. So the practical definition of headroom is the amount of usable signal that remains before clipping actually occurs AFTER the display of whatever piece of gear tells you you're clipping. If you follow the metering then you'll never use this "extra", but then that's the point cuz it ain't headroom if it's not there. So I suppose if you make quality gear with a low noise floor then you can maintain an wide dynamic range and still cheat and give away 4-5 dB's of otherwise usable signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 10, 2012 Members Share Posted February 10, 2012 My guess is it's the same with clip lights on amps as well. I can't say for clip lights, but for limiter lights "generally" the actually fire after measuring a few clipped cycles. Of course the whole topic of "clipping" is questionable. When is a signal clipped? It means different things to different manufacturers and it would be different for different complex waveforms. So there's always at least a tiny fudge factor involved. So I agree with your points. You pretty much have to give away a few dB unless you are absolutely certain what the level my rise to during a performance (or you are willing to accept at least some amount of distortion/clipping). With analog you may have another dB or two above the onset of clipping that isn't too catastrophic. With digital once you are there and run out of bits you are toast. It's easier to understand the digital model to me. It's like standing on the edge of a cliff. You are either on or you are off and everyone understands that threshold pretty intuitively. But to your point ... that threshold is not so easy to see with analog gear (especially un-calibrated gear ... and I don't mean the markings on any knobs) and I believe most users are giving away precious potential from their sound systems. Think about it this way, If you spent $10k for your system it would cost you another $10k to get a 3 dB improvement (in a big general way). Likewise If you spent $10k but are not getting you complete potential by a few dB you are only getting $5k worth of performance. This really hits home if you spent $10k but really needed $20K (and are getting $5k in actuality). So I'll end my soapbox speech with ... either spend way more that you need or get educated (or let the gear itself provide the education, if you know what I mean ). There is a big difference between a "professional" and an "expert" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 11, 2012 Members Share Posted February 11, 2012 On almost all amps, the clip LED indicates actual clipping (or limiting). It's because of the way mose clipping detectors are designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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