Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 define headroom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 define headroom... There you go! Headroom is what you have left over ... but left over from where. Answer: left over from some arbitrary point you define. So lets just consider the mixer. Set your trim to the correct spot and set your fader to that magic zero/unity mark. Now how much above that until you clip is your headroom. Now set the fader down 6 dB and guess what? You now have 6 dB more headroom (it's like magic, huh?). Like someone already said, it's only headroom if you don't use it ... so in that sense all headroom is wasted (in the form of extra system noise) Please don't get me wrong. I'm for all the headroom I can get. But it is expensive so I don't wanna give any away by not having my system calibrated (oh-ooh, now I'm back to gain structure;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 define headroom... Well, there you go. That's what I was stuck on before. What do you call the amount of gain provided by the gain knob? I'm relatively certain that there is a name for it. It isn't headroom, then what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 The StudioLive has preamps that range from -16dB to +67dB. Now that, IIRC is the amount of gain given to a mic.With a maximum input level of +16dBu at unity gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 What do you call the amount of gain provided by the gain knob? I'm relatively certain that there is a name for it. It isn't headroom, then what?What wrong with calling it Gain like it says on the knob? "Preamp Gain" or "Headamp Gain" if you want to be all technically about it but gain is gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 Dad always tells me that adequate Headroom in a Mixer and Power Amp is essential to ensure a clean, healthy signal that will not fry the speakers. My friends asked me which entry level Mixer has the most Headroom. Can you tell me? The OP mentions mixer with the most headroom. Would that be gain then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 I want a Midas Venice if I can afford one...but I can't.sigh... I have the Venice 320, it's ok. it works fine, does sound nice. IMO, overpriced. No pads, no phase reverse, weird monitor send situation. simple EQ... I'd just as soon take a Heath ZED, or GL2400. I have 3 Yamaha MG mixers including the 166. I have gotten along fine with them, they have never been any hindrance towards a great mix. Sure, with some really loud sources, like a kick drum w a loud player, I've lit up the input red. The EQ is fine. The effects when used how I think they should be used work just fine too. that being said, I would take the AH Zed series over anything in that price range. ...maybe even the small presonus SL would be cool too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 Yea...I know. Let's stop the Behringer bashing cos we know that d.So...can anyone tell me why the Midas has more headroom? One big difference can be traced to power supply capacity. Some mixers really mush out when you load them up heavily, where-as others handle the traffic well... and it's not the mixer persay, but rather the power supply that's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 The OP mentions mixer with the most headroom. Would that be gain then? I would think that dynamic range is what matters. The usable range between noise floor and clipping. As mentioned, headroom is just wasted dynamic range and is more less the safety valve there to save you from yourself. If the metering is accurate then you'd know the second you run out as you'd be in the red. I suppose some would say that mixer has zero headroom. I just dug up a forum entry where Tim from A&H said the GL2200 is designed to show clipping at 5 dB below clipping. So there's 5dB of headroom, at the expense of dynamic range if you operate the mixer within the guidelines of the metering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 How about we define headroom as "having more quality SPL available than required for the situation." If this definition is used, the mixer's "headroom" doesn't really matter, as the fader levels will indicate the amount of headroom available and not being used. I for one always bring more quality SPL to the gig than required as I prefer my gear to not have to work hard. This provides peace of mind and equipment longevity. Green lights are soothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 There you go! Headroom is what you have left over ... but left over from where. Answer: left over from some arbitrary point you define.So lets just consider the mixer. Set your trim to the correct spot and set your fader to that magic zero/unity mark. Now how much above that until you clip is your headroom. Now set the fader down 6 dB and guess what? You now have 6 dB more headroom (it's like magic, huh?).Like someone already said, it's only headroom if you don't use it ... so in that sense all headroom is wasted (in the form of extra system noise)Please don't get me wrong. I'm for all the headroom I can get. But it is expensive so I don't wanna give any away by not having my system calibrated (oh-ooh, now I'm back to gain structure;) ) I like your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 One big difference can be traced to power supply capacity. Some mixers really mush out when you load them up heavily, where-as others handle the traffic well... and it's not the mixer persay, but rather the power supply that's the difference. Power supply? So if I use a better power it will make the Mixer sound better and cleaner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 Power supply? So if I use a better power it will make the Mixer sound better and cleaner? Well... I said "POWER SUPPLY"... and nothing about "power". There is a history of boards sold with woefully insufficent power supplies and a niche of upgraded power supplies offerings that brought the sparkle to the boards. A mixing board had two basic components: The signal path and the power supply. What you plug the assembled power supply and mixing board into to energize the board is a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 Yea... I think my posting went right over the top... eh? No big deal... there's a reason why god keeps making tomorrows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 I will give you an example. On a Behringer mixer...the headroom is so limited. I know you folks hate Behringer...but I am using that as an example...but when I use the Midas Venice Mixer...the headroom is aplenty! So...there IS a difference in headroom yes?on the two Behr mixers I owned, headroom was never an issue, but then I had plenty of power and speaker to go along with them. The issue was the numerous reliability issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 How about we define headroom as "having more quality SPL available than required for the situation." If this definition is used, the mixer's "headroom" doesn't really matter, as the fader levels will indicate the amount of headroom available and not being used. Correct. That would be "system headroom" and that is the one that matters. The headroom (or even dynamic range) of a system can be no more that the device in your system that has the lowest dynamic range. And if you haven't calibrated your system gain you are likely giving some away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 I would think that dynamic range is what matters. The usable range between noise floor and clipping. As mentioned, headroom is just wasted dynamic range and is more less the safety valve there to save you from yourself..... I really like Abzurd's definition of "usable range between noise floor and clipping". I'm occasionally stuck using an older 16 channel Mackie with one of the bands I play with - and absolutely hate it when compared to the Mizwiz in my rig. Why? Because it I struggle to find the "just right" point when setting each channel strip - one RPH (red pubic hair - which is one of the tiniest incremental measurements known to man) before or beyond "just right" and it's absolute shiite. On my Mizwiz - a few RPH before and/or after "just right" is a "getting pretty close" setting. I can easily get my brain around this concept of range as being considered a mixing board's "headroom". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 It's likely that the Midas does NOT have more headroom than the Behringer. It's also likely that there is something else entirely that you (or your dad) are thinking about. Both clip in excess of +20dBu. The amount of headroom needed is the amount required to do the job plus adequate margin. All (reasonable) consoles made today have plenty of headroom to do the job provided your system gain structure is properly set to begin with. If it's not, it's operator error. Yea...I know. Let's stop the Behringer bashing cos we know that d.So...can anyone tell me why the Midas has more headroom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 I have the MG166cx. Hated it! Very little headroom. its Effects sound like crap. EQ is weak. Sigh... Has as much practical headroom as the Midas (clips at >+20dBu). You sure you are describing the right attribute? You seem to be keen on assigning blame to something that is not even the most likely culpret. What exactly are your symptoms that lead to your questionable conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 The OP mentions mixer with the most headroom. Would that be gain then? No, has nothing (directly) to do with headroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 I really like Abzurd's definition of "usable range between noise floor and clipping". That is the definition of "dynamic range" The definition of headroom is what is left over and available at any given instant between your operating level and clipping. oh yeah ... technically it's RCH, not RPH;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 it will make the Mixer sound better and cleaner? No, only in a defective design or inadequate or broken power supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2012 Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 How about we define headroom as "having more quality SPL available than required for the situation." If this definition is used, the mixer's "headroom" doesn't really matter, as the fader levels will indicate the amount of headroom available and not being used.I for one always bring more quality SPL to the gig than required as I prefer my gear to not have to work hard. This provides peace of mind and equipment longevity. Green lights are soothing. The fader position has nothing at all to do with mixer headroom. Now, for the accurate definition of headroom for a mixer: The amount of available headroom in a mixer's OUTPUT is the signal amplitude that remains available and unused (before clipping) while the system is driven to either the rated level or the level that successfully completes the job (whichever is less). The amount of headroom in a mixer's INPUT is the difference between the maximum signal that goes into the input and the minimum gain before clipping of the head amp and/or eq stage. There's also headroom of other sections of the mixer, but all of these carry very precise definitions and are for the most part of little consequence as long as you obey the input and output headroom limitations and proper gain structure. Many PRO mixers (not ones that say "pro" in their model names) will have a gain block diagram that shows the savy engineer what's going on inside the console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted February 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 The fader position has nothing at all to do with mixer headroom.Now, for the accurate definition of headroom for a mixer:The amount of available headroom in a mixer's OUTPUT is the signal amplitude that remains available and unused (before clipping) while the system is driven to either the rated level or the level that successfully completes the job (whichever is less). The amount of headroom in a mixer's INPUT is the difference between the maximum signal that goes into the input and the minimum gain before clipping of the head amp and/or eq stage.There's also headroom of other sections of the mixer, but all of these carry very precise definitions and are for the most part of little consequence as long as you obey the input and output headroom limitations and proper gain structure. Many PRO mixers (not ones that say "pro" in their model names) will have a gain block diagram that shows the savy engineer what's going on inside the console. Andy...I am not gonna pretend I understand all the above...cos I don't. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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