Members Axisplayer Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Once every 3-4 years I get to mix a jazz act and I totally love it. There is a band here with a female vocalist/pianist, bass player with a Hofner Beatle bass, guitarist with a nice arch top, and a drummer with a set of Gretsch 1948 Broadkasters. They sound so mellow and smooth, and I love to make the blend happen at outdoor events. What kind of jazz do you play? (sorry to derail the thread momentarily.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 But the limiter portion of the DBX unit will? No. The insert follows the input gain stage in the signal chain. You have to make sure you are not clipping there first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Once every 3-4 years I get to mix a jazz act and I totally love it. There is a band here with a female vocalist/pianist, bass player with a Hofner Beatle bass, guitarist with a nice arch top, and a drummer with a set of Gretsch 1948 Broadkasters. They sound so mellow and smooth, and I love to make the blend happen at outdoor events. What kind of jazz do you play? (sorry to derail the thread momentarily.....) Not sure if you are asking me, but I play bass in an 18-piece Big Band that does classic Jazz and Swing and some contemporary stuff as well. My basic setup is Bass -> Hartke 3500 -> Hartke Pro 2200 2x12 cab. Basses are a mix, but frequently either a Peavey Cirrus or Millenium USA. Btw, nothing quite as nice as mixing a talented jazz group that keeps a quiet stage and listens to each other. The only thing better is performing IN such a band! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Once every 3-4 years I get to mix a jazz act and I totally love it. There is a band here with a female vocalist/pianist, bass player with a Hofner Beatle bass, guitarist with a nice arch top, and a drummer with a set of Gretsch 1948 Broadkasters. They sound so mellow and smooth, and I love to make the blend happen at outdoor events. What kind of jazz do you play? (sorry to derail the thread momentarily.....) It's nice to have some smooth tunes going on.. I've had a few run-in's with jazz guys in my days.. One group was a 3 piece (bass, drums, guitar) and the two non-guitar guys were locals called in to play the gig with no rehearsal.. We had a giant field to fill (think 1.5-2 soccer fields in a large city park) and a sound system to fill it... We had a monitor tech on the side of the stage and were ready to go. As a bass player myself, I know that 'my tone' is a precious thing to me and I've spent a lot of time getting it 'right', so I usually leave bass tone alone (with exception to anything that is just not translating through the FOH rig...) but this guy was all over the place dynamically, and not in the 'man, he's gooooooood' way'... so I inserted a comp. I set it at a ratio of 2:5 and dialed it in so that at his hardest playing the comp was maybe hitting 4Db in reduction (this is how I tend to run my own comp pedal, just enough to tame the hardest odd hits.... I'm pretty F'in consistent with my attack). It sounded much better, I could sit him in the mix and they could jam. I didn't dare tell him about it because he has shown a really bad attitude when he first got there to load-in... During sound check they didn't ask for anything in their monitors, even when I asked (and the monitor engineer asked) and they responded that 'we're used to just mixing with each other' in a snobby voice, then later said that the bass was too loud through the FOH rig and causing issues with their stage mix... (of course they couldn't hear the guitar as loudly through the FOH, it was beaming into the audience field and HF tends to be more directional...). I explained the blah blah blah about the directional properties of bass versus treble and they all agreed that they were fine. still nothing adjusted in the monitors, because they were too good to use the rig the right way. During the show, I kept my eye on levels and made sure the drums were not up like they would be in a rock show.... That didn't stop a guy wearing a really tacky Hawaiian shirt and sitting on the grass 20 feet from the FOH stack from coming up and telling me I was doing it wrong... He said the kick drum was way too loud.. of course it was, he was sitting right in front of the subs on the ground... I politely sent him to walk the field and come back if he felt it was really too loud, or if it was simply his choice of seating location... he never came back.. After the show, the band did nothing but berate my crew (monitor tech included) about how bad it sounded to them. I not so politely advised them that they knew there was a tech their to give them anything they wanted in the wedges if they simply asked for it and advised them that they should probably stay in the coffee shops and jazz clubs and leave the real concerts to the pros.. I know it was an A-hole thing to say, but it's what they needed to hear. I've had 'real' acts on my stage and when the band works WITH the crew (who is there to work FOR the band), everything is great. I have a pretty bad view on jazz guys now, and it's a shame that one really, really bad experience was all it took. But then, as a rock player, I've been looked down on so much, it wasn't really just that one experience that did it, i guess.... To the OP, If you are really set on using a comp, set it at a ratio of 3 or so, dial it in so when your bass man really digs, it's cutting 4-6dB and see how that works. It's not going to be a Limiter per se, but if your player isn't horribly fluctuating and this is just for a little peace of mind, it should be a good start. DO you have limiters on your FOH rig already? If not, that may be a precautionary measure you want to take if this is really that much of a concern. That being said, I prefer to have a comp in my bass rig, and don't care who thinks that is 'wrong'..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tech21NYC Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Our SansAmp Bass Driver DI utilizes our tube amp "emulating" circuitry. A byproduct of this is compression though it is not a true compressor. Even with mild settings it will usually tighten up the sound but it will never be as transparent as a compressor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sibyrnes Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 That being said, I prefer to have a comp in my bass rig, and don't care who thinks that is 'wrong'..... There is no "wrong". What ever works for you is "right". Of course when someone asks for opinions here, he's going to get them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted April 12, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 No. The insert follows the input gain stage in the signal chain. You have to make sure you are not clipping there first. So if I was really concerned about being blown out by a DJ or something I'd have to run them into the comp/lim directly and then into the mixwiz channel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Not necessarily. You will still use the channel trims to set the input level (within reason), you just can't count on an inserted compressor to prevent input stage clipping. That happens before it gets to the insert. If you have a DJ who clips the inputs, you cut back the trims on those inputs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 But the limiter portion of the DBX unit will? No, it will not. It's before the mixer's head amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted April 23, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 23, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted April 23, 2012 Members Share Posted April 23, 2012 Before answering how much (if any) compression to add in the mixer channel you have to consider the overall system (and certainly the music style). First ... if you are playing into a typical bass amp you are likely adding "dynamic range control" because the amp is limiting as well as the preamp electronics. This is happening behind the scenes so to speak. Has a amplifier limit LED ever come on? Unless the sound system is capable of lots of dynamic range, you are also compressing/limiting is the system. Big concert shows almost always rely on compression so they don't have to bring 3 more trailers of gear for a small difference in dynamic range that most listeners actually prefer because it sounds "more like the record" to them. I would always have a comp/limiter patched into my bass channel as standard operating procedure. How much I might use (or not) would depend on how it affected the total performance and not the "realism" of the actually bass part. A really big factor (I have not seen discussed here) is the attack time. I generally leave this at 50 ms or greater so the formant transients don't get crushed. It depends case by case ... but as a big general rule I tend to agree with Abzurd's approach. Acoustic jazz, not so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted April 23, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 23, 2012 Before answering how much (if any) compression to add in the mixer channel you have to consider the overall system (and certainly the music style). First ... if you are playing into a typical bass amp you are likely adding "dynamic range control" because the amp is limiting as well as the preamp electronics. This is happening behind the scenes so to speak. Has a amplifier limit LED ever come on? Unless the sound system is capable of lots of dynamic range, you are also compressing/limiting is the system. Big concert shows almost always rely on compression so they don't have to bring 3 more trailers of gear for a small difference in dynamic range that most listeners actually prefer because it sounds "more like the record" to them. I would always have a comp/limiter patched into my bass channel as standard operating procedure. How much I might use (or not) would depend on how it affected the total performance and not the "realism" of the actually bass part. A really big factor (I have not seen discussed here) is the attack time. I generally leave this at 50 ms or greater so the formant transients don't get crushed. It depends case by case ... but as a big general rule I tend to agree with Abzurd's approach. Acoustic jazz, not so much We are eliminating the bass amp. Going direct now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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