EV Live X vs. SXA/SBA

[jaygabs]

Gentlemen (and ladies)

 

I hope you all would be willing to help a lowly DJ make a tough choice. To give you some context - I do mostly weddings with 150-200 people and I currently run an EV Live X rig - 2 ELX112P tops and 2 ELX118P subs. I must say, I have had experience with many different setups and, for the price and my application - these are great.

 

HOWEVER - I have some issues with the Live X. The wood they are made of and the finish is not the quality I was expecting (I previously had SXA250s which I LOVED). Also, recently I've found myself constantly "babysitting" the Limit indicators for fear that I will have a thermal shutdown. The lack of heatsinks or fans and one instance of losing a speaker on my last song have instilled these fears in me. I am very careful with overruning my gear and I just feel like they are too "fragile" overall, even for me.

 

I'm really been falling back in love with the SXA250s and since I'm attached to having subs now - I've been checking out the SBA760s recently. The amp modules and the construction just look to be so much superior. I have NO experience with the 760s nor do I know anyone who has. I'm really having a problem comparing these to what I have because today's specs from speaker manufacturers are so ridiculous. I can and will A/B test the 112Ps with the SXA250s, but my question for you all is this: Would I be losing anything significant (or worse making a lateral move) by going from 118Ps to SBA760s? I do not play a lot of hiphop so I am not concerned as much with losing some bottom end frequencies (which I understand the 118Ps don't actually reach in the real world anyway). And what is the perception of the SBA760 vs. 118P in the pro sound world - especially around quality and reliability?

 

Ultimately I don't want to make a change if it's not necessary, but I want something that's pro quality and most importantly reliable.

 

Thank you all in advance for your help and please let me know if you need any further detail.

 

Also, please do not suggest any other brand - I do a significant amount of research before I ask questions and I owned the Kseries for a bit. I am perfectly content remaining in the EV family.

[Audiopyle Sound]

The SBA760 is better than the ELX118P in all respects. It's a little heavier but still easily manageable and comes with casters.

[Bobby1Note]

I've heard the SBa760's, and they're a very nice, tight-sounding sub, with pretty decent output for the size. Last time I listened to them, was at a wedding reception, in a ball-room which seated 80-100 people, and those subs rocked the room hard, for quite an extended period (over 6 hours), with no issues whatsoever. The DJ at that gig was running SxA 360's for mains.

 

PS. I share your affinity for the SxA 250's. Great loudspeaker.

[agedhorse]

I haven't heard of the ELX having thermal problems, are you sure there isn't something else going on... perhaps the AC linecord coming loose from the IEC socket on the speaker? Are you using the subs in normal or boost mode? What are you doing regarding system eq? Are you using the tops in "with sub" mode?

 

I agree about the finish, most folks that I know use covers on their speakers (or cases) to protect the finish in transit.

 

They are designed not to require external heatsinks or fan, not havingthem means nothing as the design does not require them.

[Vinny D]

 

I haven't heard of the ELX having thermal problems

 

 

Really? this board and many others are loaded with users complaining about thermal issues with this series.

[jaygabs]

 

The SBA760 is better than the ELX118P in all respects.

 

 

This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for, thank you. Would you all say this is pretty much the widely accepted truth?

 

Also, @agedhorse thank you for your input. I go directly from the xlr main outs to the subs and then to the speakers. I run all in flat mode, but the speakers are on "with sub". I actually have bought tuki covers for the tops and Connie's covers for the subs, which have done a good job keeping them looking good. I just worry that the finish and wood thickness quality are indicative of other less obvious corners that were cut internally.

 

I also don't completely understand these "class d" amps. I'm no electrical engineer but how can anything create the stated specs while drawing only 1.4 amps? They just seem too good to be true when coupled with the insane marketing. BUT That's a whole other topic... all these things are planting seeds of doubt in my mind for the live x and any of the NEW "class d" offerings from all the other companies. Plus now being made in china all makes me think something's amiss and that going back to the old "they don't build them like they used to" cliche might not be such a bad idea while those "old" speakers are still (slightly) available.

[agedhorse]

 

This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for, thank you. Would you all say this is pretty much the widely accepted truth? Also, @agedhorse thank you for your input. I go directly from the xlr main outs to the subs and then to the speakers. I run all in flat mode, but the speakers are on "with sub". I actually have bought tuki covers for the tops and Connie's covers for the subs, which have done a good job keeping them looking good. I just worry that the finish and wood thickness quality are indicative of other less obvious corners that were cut internally. I also don't completely understand these "class d" amps. I'm no electrical engineer but how can anything create the stated specs while drawing only 1.4 amps? They just seem too good to be true when coupled with the insane marketing. BUT That's a whole other topic... all these things are planting seeds of doubt in my mind for the live x and any of the NEW "class d" offerings from all the other companies. Plus now being made in china all makes me think something's amiss and that going back to the old "they don't build them like they used to" cliche might not be such a bad idea while those "old" speakers are still (slightly) available.

 

 

Finish is pretty light duty, but the wood type and thickness of the wood are not indictiave of anything other than perhaps good engineering.

 

As far as drawing 1.4 amps, that is the minimum labeling requirement for UL and CE requirements (power draw must me measured at a minimum of 1/8 rated audio power) and accurately represents an amplifier driving a speaker with a typical music load at the point of limiting with a typical peak to average (crest factor) ratio. Take a look at the QSC, crown or Crest websites, all of their amps are measured and specified that way plus for some models draw at additional peak to average ratios are provided. Class D amps with SMPS are also very efficient, and with high power factor, typically ~85% efficient at rated power compared with a line frequency transformer based supply (lower power factor) and maybe a 55% efficient amp.

 

Being made in China means nothing when the company behind the product is a company like JBL, EV, QSC, etc.

[heath_eld]

I use the EVs regularly. They're not an amazing speaker but i have had zero problems with them (notwithstanding the fact that yeah, they mark and chip easily. Whats with that EV??). I also feel like the knobs and plugs feel a bit cheap too. So i hear ya.

 

The SBA760 costs a lot more - i have never heard it but i would assume that it is at a different class. I'm not sure whether its enough better to justify the loss you'll make on your EVs.

 

Remember that most of the current gen active speakers (including the highly respected PRX from JBL) have countless internet "rumours" about thermal shutdowns. What i've heard with the EVs is this was a problem with the early ones. All i can say is i have used mine near the limit all night and no problem - I do try to avoid having the limiters on too much - to me thats common sense. I agree with aged - if one of these shut down once, you should really seek out what else the problem might be.

 

I'm no DJ - but i do do the odd DJ stuff for friends, and i am far more of a fan of these for DJ work than i am for live work. They have a certain warmth that seems to suit recorded music.

 

As an aside - the internet specs for the EVs are ridiculous - 32 hz lows and some crazy high volume level. The only thing you can really compare is real world use - all that really matters is whether they do the job you need - not what you've heard online. Why did you go from the SXAs to ELX if you were happy?

[agedhorse]

 

Really? this board and many others are loaded with users complaining about thermal issues with this series.

 

 

Every one of them that I remember were DJ users and MY experience with the DJ market is that they tend to have problems with every piece of equipment they touch. The common sense factor seems realy limited, and perhaps EV has included thermal shutdown to also track voice coil temp so that if they are being driven hard into limiting for an extended period of time they will shut down to protect the driver?

 

In live audio, I haven't seen a history of this, but I have with just about every powered speaker sold into the DJ market in the last 5 years.

 

Before you get all hot and bothered for me bagging on the DJ market, look at the typical history of products in that market... the TYPICAL users are really horribly rough and abusive to their gear. This does not reflect on all users but the odds are there.

[agedhorse]

 

Remember that most of the current gen active speakers (including the highly respected PRX from JBL) have countless internet "rumours" about thermal shutdowns. What i've heard with the EVs is this was a problem with the early ones. All i can say is i have used mine near the limit all night and no problem - I do try to avoid having the limiters on too much - to me thats common sense. I agree with aged - if one of these shut down once, you should really seek out what else the problem might be.

 

 

Duh, common sense!!!

[jaygabs]

I agree completely agedhorse, most of my comrades do not share the respect for their gear's capabilities that I do. That being said, you guys made a lot of sense - for the vast majority (90%) of what I do, these are more than adequate. Haha.. Full disclosure - I did a 275 person prom on saturday(totally outside of my normal market) and felt I was lacking, so of course I promptly started looking for a new "fix". As is the case most times when I start feeling like I get the itch to make a change - I'd be better suited keeping what i have, convincing my partner to step up and buy 2 118p's, and bring all 4 for those once a year 300 guest jobs!

 

Thank you all for your input!

[Audiopyle Sound]

 

This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for, thank you. Would you all say this is pretty much the widely accepted truth?

 

 

This is my own opinion based on having both in my inventory and having used them both. Before the SBA760 hit the "end of life" list it sold for twice the street price of the ELX118P. At that price EV could not compete against all the cheaper stuff hitting the market. At current pricing it is a bargain, at least until they are all sold.

 

As I said it is a little heavier, but is actually easier to lift thanks to compact size and good handle placement. The fit and finish of the cabinet and components is much better than the ELX. It will get louder and response is at least as deep as the ELX. It has a full crossover, while the ELX has only a lowpass filter. It has a 20mm threaded pole adapter, which I personally prefer to the typical pole cup. It comes with a set of casters attached.

 

I'm NOT being critical of the ELX sub here. I think it delivers great value at it's price point. The SBA760 was simply built to sell at a much higher price, and is now reduced for closeout.

[Vinny D]

My vote on your poll above is incorrect, I meant to hit YES.....but my wonderfull computer decided to lock up just as I was attempting to make my selection, and I cliked the wrong one..

 

The SXA line is far superior to the ELX, in every way possible..

All of the painted surfaces suck *ss on EV products, don't know why they can't come up with a better coating.

My SXA cab will chip easily and my QRX subs that I had needed to be treated with kid gloves not to damage the finish.

[OneEng]

(start of water under the bridge)

 

If you were to ask for a powered speaker setup from scratch, I wouldn't have recommended the ELX line because of the cheep finish, and the somewhat lower sound quality compared to other speakers; however, (end of water under the bridge )

 

Since you already have an ELX setup, if you want to push them further than they can go, you will likely get better results by purchasing more of what you already have. DJ music is generally MUCH more sub heavy than it is HF heavy. I suspect you could put two ELX subs under each ELX top and be happy with the results.

 

I have a Yamaha DSR112 over PRX612S-XLF setup. I consider this one of the most powerful combinations in this price range today based on my testing. I would say that this setup can play for 200 all the time, 250 in some situations, and 300 is pushing it. Based on my assessment of the ELX system, I would say that your system is in over its head for 250-300 people for bass heavy DJ music.

 

You need more rig for the gig

 

P.S. Can't help you with the cheep a** finish EV decided to put on the ELX speakers ..... but the sound isn't that bad.

[heath_eld]

 

Full disclosure - I did a 275 person prom on saturday(totally outside of my normal market) and felt I was lacking, so of course I promptly started looking for a new "fix".

 

 

I wouldnt think that even a slightly higher level 2 x subs 2 x tops may be inadequate. I once used my ELX for a band gig for 500. Was it a good idea? Not really. But thats what the budget for the event paid for. I explained to the band that they should consider paying for a real sound company for this job but realistically the budget wasnt there from the events end. You could hear it - but it certainly wasnt the levels i would have preferred.

[agedhorse]

 

Since you already have an ELX setup, if you want to push them further than they can go, you will likely get better results by purchasing more of what you already have. DJ music is generally MUCH more sub heavy than it is HF heavy. I suspect you could put two ELX subs under each ELX top and be happy with the results.

 

 

I agree, this will also give you the opportunity to do 2 smaller rooms, etc. It also gives you back-up in the event that you do happen to have a problem.

 

One problem with some of the better limiters is that it's easy to push a speaker much harder than you realize, driving them harder into limiting than they were designed to do. What happens is that you greatly alter the peak to average ratio that is the profile all speakers and amps are designed around. Once you decrease the peak to average ratio by 6dB, you have quadrupled the average power the amp must deliver. This is difficult for any amp to reproduce other than the more significant (and costly) full pro units.

 

A thought about the fragile finish... I wonder if it's a low VOC material due to stricter emissions rules?

[Rezrover]

 

A thought about the fragile finish... I wonder if it's a low VOC material due to stricter emissions rules?

 

 

I wonder if it's the same "EV Coat" stuff that's on the Phoenix line cause that wasn't that durable either... I thought.

[Marko]

 

Every one of them that I remember were DJ users and MY experience with the DJ market is that they tend to have problems with every piece of equipment they touch. The common sense factor seems realy limited, and perhaps EV has included thermal shutdown to also track voice coil temp so that if they are being driven hard into limiting for an extended period of time they will shut down to protect the driver? In live audio, I haven't seen a history of this, but I have with just about every powered speaker sold into the DJ market in the last 5 years. Before you get all hot and bothered for me bagging on the DJ market, look at the typical history of products in that market... the TYPICAL users are really horribly rough and abusive to their gear. This does not reflect on all users but the odds are there.

 

 

Might DJs have more problems because the recorded music they play is mastered and highly-compressed (greatly reducing the difference between the peaks and the average volume) allowing the music to be played at a higher volume before the peaks affect the limiters?

 

Maybe they just need to not play as liberally with the clip lights as when doing live sound... or maybe there should be a separate

[agedhorse]

 

Might DJs have more problems because the recorded music they play is mastered and highly-compressed (greatly reducing the difference between the peaks and the average volume) allowing the music to be played at a higher volume before the peaks affect the limiters?   Maybe they just need to not play as liberally with the clip lights as when doing live sound... or maybe there should be a separate

[mrcpro]

 

I'm really been falling back in love with the SXA250s and since I'm attached to having subs now - I've been checking out the SBA760s recently. The amp modules and the construction just look to be so much superior.

 

 

Personally I'd make the switch if you're in this for the long haul - especially since it seems that the 760 is being closed out and priced to move right now. The Live X line is a budget line and you're going to want to get out of them sooner or later anyway. Might as well be now. You still have your 250's right?

 

Just a word about this forum: It is a live performance forum by definition, but there are a few DJ's who hang out in here anyway because of it's knowledge base. All the DJ sound forums I've visited are lacking in that respect - and that's putting it mildly. However because of what this place is, you are going to experience some bias against DJ's at times - along with occasionally not sympathizing with what we have to do in order to do our jobs effectively.

 

As you know, we are required to produce slamming tracks continuously for hours on end. There is no backing off on the levels. There are no 15 minute breaks, no pauses between songs - none of that. It's very demanding on our gear, and the gear we use has to be able to take it.

 

The top DJ's in my area are all aware of this. Every responsible DJ I know of positions himself so he has a clear line of sight to the limiters on the cabs and keeps a watchful eye on them at all times. The last thing we want is thermal shutdown or equipment failure. It makes us look like idiots. You mention that you are currently doing this with your Live X system, but that practice will probably never go away no matter what you use.

[jaygabs]

Thank you all once again, mrcpro hit the nail on the head. I frequent this forum because I value all of your opinions as working professionals who have far more extensive training and experience on live sound production than even the most knowledgeable DJ (which I certainly am not). However, I completely understand that our 2 worlds are very different, so naturally I take everything with a grain of salt.

 

@mrcpro - what do you use? (obviously ur name gives some away)

[Audiopyle Sound]

 

Thank you all in advance for your help and please let me know if you need any further detail.

 

 

Check your PMs.

[jaygabs]

Here's another question, rather than getting another 2 118ps, would it be totally outlandish to scoop up 2 sbas at close out price? What I'm really asking is could the Elx 118ps and sba760s be used together effectively?

[mrcpro]

@mrcpro - what do you use? (obviously ur name gives some away)

 

Actually mrcpro is the name of some sequencing software that I was using at the time when I registered for HC Forums - way back when....

 

My current system is passive actually - either Yorkville EF508s or E2104 towers over some custom 21" subs I built last year. With my own system, I have the Driverack where I can see the limiters on it, and I can also see the front panels of the power amps as well.

 

But I often find myself on house systems, in particular on a Mackie system - 1530 towers over 1801 subs. That system is really inadequate for the room it's installed in, and I'm constantly riding the limiters whenever I'm using it.

[Randyman]

@ Mike Pyle,

So how much are the SBA760s going for?