Members Vito Corleone Posted February 5, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 From an individual standpoint, everyone is pretty much going to use what they feel they need to get "their" sound. I think that's going to be true with almost any band and situation. I'm thinking more of the 'group' aspect of things. When it comes to PA and lights, the point of what you need to get through the gig is probably reached pretty easily. After that, we're adding extra sound and lights in order to create a specific image for the band that hopefully is reflected in future revenue, but I doubt anyone is ever going to say "wow---that's so great you had those 4 extra par cans in the back!" and toss you an extra 100 bucks because of it. The other side of that is how tempting it can be to cut back. We've had gigs where, usually due to size restraints, we can't bring in all the lights or the risers. Everyone is always glad to not deal with the extra gear, and we always go over just as well as if we did set it up. So then it seems like every time we show up to a gig, somebody in the band comes to me and says "gee...I dunno if we're gonna have room for the risers on this stage? Are you sure we need them?" No. We don't "need" them. Nobody is going to pay us less for not using them. Nobody at the gig is going to specifically notice that we don't have them. We're not going to play the songs any worse without them. But do we look better with them? I absolutely 100% think so. Does this translate into better paying gigs down the road? I'd at least LIKE to think it does, because I think it sets forth a consistent impression of the "level" of a band that we are (or at least want to present ourselves as being). But maybe it doesn't translate into better money and is just waste of time and effort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 5, 2015 Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 I totally agree with you. Lots of people see with their eyes, so we give them something to look at. Our price is basically double what the bars pay. We have played the one place a few times. Sometimes we give them a bit of a deal, sometimes not. Their typical band will have SOS, no subs, not much of a light so. They usually do pretty good. But you can see the difference. Them: Us: the owner mentiones she has a line down the street of bands that will play for $800 and a room. We tell her that's perfectly fine. She pays what she pays and we charge what we charge, which is why we don't play there very often. Do we need all that? No, but its sure a lot of fun having it, even if it is an assload of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted February 6, 2015 Members Share Posted February 6, 2015 ward! Long time! How's it goin!? monitors have pretty much always been a "part of the PA" deal with any band I've been in, whether the PA was collectively owned or owned by one person. Although our our system now is pretty much individually owned as everyone is responsible for their own wireless, ears and tablet. But if the band is running a digital mixer, running IEMs isn't going to be much more than a traditional monitoring system. Especially if it's a bigger system where you're trying to run 5 or 6 or more separate mixes. Hey Dave! I took a couple years off from playing, but now I'm getting back into it. I've been the PA guy before, responsible for carring a ton of stuff to the gig. It really sucks, and I like the idea of everyone beng responsible for their own monitoring. I'd love everyone in my current band to go IEM, but I imagine that' too much to ask. However, I think it's fair to suggest that everyone get their own monitoring system, even if it's a wedge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 6, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 6, 2015 However, I think it's fair to suggest that everyone get their own monitoring system, even if it's a wedge. I think so too. Especially in this day and age of cheap powered speakers. Glad to see you back in the game! And welcome back to the forum. This place needs some life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 6, 2015 Members Share Posted February 6, 2015 Hey Dave! I took a couple years off from playing, but now I'm getting back into it. I've been the PA guy before, responsible for carring a ton of stuff to the gig. It really sucks, and I like the idea of everyone beng responsible for their own monitoring. I'd love everyone in my current band to go IEM, but I imagine that' too much to ask. However, I think it's fair to suggest that everyone get their own monitoring system, even if it's a wedge. if you are going to have everyone get their own monitor, you should decide on the model and brand. Then go in as a group and buy 4 or 5 or however many you need as a band. You might be able to get a deal that way and you won't have a hodge-podge of random monitors on stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted February 6, 2015 Members Share Posted February 6, 2015 if you are going to have everyone get their own monitor, you should decide on the model and brand. Then go in as a group and buy 4 or 5 or however many you need as a band. You might be able to get a deal that way and you won't have a hodge-podge of random monitors on stage. I think in a perfect world, you're absolutely correct. That being said, people in your band will have different budgets, ideas about the importance of quality, etc., so I think it's an idea worth bringing up, but not being stringent on. I suspect most people are like me where you have a couple guys in the band who have never had to lug a monitor (or PA) around, and have always operated under the assumption that neither sound, nor their ability to accurately hear the band, was their responsability. However, you should provide some guidance, if you're PA saavy, into the importance of getting decent stuff. There's decent inexpensive powered stuff, although I'd suggest avoiding the ultra cheap stuff. There's also the wired IEM option, using a Rolls Headphone Amp, headphone cord extender and ear buds. You can get that going for $200 or less, and that's a great option for drums, bass, keys, and guys who don't move around a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 6, 2015 Members Share Posted February 6, 2015 That's why I provide everything. So it all matches, and plays nice together. But I'll be damned if I'm buying 5 sets of IEM's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted February 8, 2015 Members Share Posted February 8, 2015 I'll advance the venue sometime this week and hopefully I'll remember to let go and have fun. Because I'm that guy that has to worry about all that stuff, but at some point I will have done everything I can to make it the best we can. I have no doubt that I'll probably try and bring more this time, but do I really need to? There lies the question... And to follow up with the answer or at least the answer this time- advanced the gig and found that we were playing on 40x30 stage with a dark wooden floor, black walls and absolutely no house stage lights. We were six floors up with only a standard public elevator for access. Or stairs. The event took place in two locations in the venue; a pre-reception in our room, a dinner on a lower floor and then back up to the sixth floor for desert and dancing. I chose to bring a mid-size system with a single top over a pair of eighteens per side, but kept the mix minimal with a dedicated mix/mon/effects rack. They had the foresight to provide a proper electrical distribution system so although I couldn't bring trussing up the elevators, I was able to nicely up-light a large hanging decoration of paper lantern balls they'd put over the stage and four motorized movers to add some motion to a very static stage along with the standard trees all around. An early set up at 3pm with a completion by 5pm, background music from 5:30 to 6:30 and show from 8pm to 11pm, which went overtime and of course load out. Black tie. They provided sandwiches, beer, water and coffee service in the green room. Had a phenomenal show and very appreciative crowd. A $500 tip and an invitation back again next year was a nice end to the evening. To be fair, this has become an annual gig for us and will probably continue to be (contingent on a successful re-election!) but the fact that they do notice the efforts to advance and provide appropriate production for the event, means a lot to me as a provider. Even without the monetary bump, the respect they show us as professionals makes that effort worth while. I wish they were all like this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 I've evolved on this somewhat. I used to bring out everything. Now, equipment is scaled to how much the event is paying. Hard to do sometimes. Like Vort, we do the same. The amount of PA and lighting we use is directly proportional to the scale and population of the venue, and moreso, how much we're getting paid. Pay us your minimum, you get our minimum as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Like Vort, we do the same. The amount of PA and lighting we use is directly proportional to the scale and population of the venue, and moreso, how much we're getting paid. Pay us your minimum, you get our minimum as well. true that. And just physical limitations. Do I bring subs to a gig that holds 60 people? The tops might be more secure on the subs than stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Pay us your minimum, you get our minimum as well. Which might be why you never will get paid their maximum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Which might be why you never will get paid their maximum. Interesting. We generally bring the works or as much as we can. This gig in the 60 person bar, we are scaling back because the place is so small, and we want to keep it to one vehicle. Last benefit gig we did I debated minimal rig vs the works. I decided there were going to be a lot of people there, might as well showcase the band with the full meal deal. If anything, we got a decent video out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 9, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Well, I think I get Modulusmans point. There are always going to be gigs where do you don't bring the works bcause their simply isn't the space for it. But I would never bring less stuff because they didn't pay enough. That'd be a gig I wouldn't take in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Well with the competition between bands trying to play gigs I say just bringing the minimum isn't helping a band to stand out. My main band plays a gig every summer where the attendance is usually 50-75 people. We use subwoofers for this gig. Would a small speaker on a stick system work, probably. Would it sound as good. No. We have been doing this gig for about 15 years now so I think we are on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted February 9, 2015 Members Share Posted February 9, 2015 Which might be why you never will get paid their maximum. My statement might have been a bit harsh, but I didn't mean to insinuate that we don't perform at our very best. If we're gigging, WE'RE GIGGING. We put out the same energy, banter, and performance regardless. Some clubs are known around here to shortchange bands, and a whole lot of other shady practices. We're not going to schlep an extra 10K worth of PA and lighting into a dump that wants to 're-negotiate' at the end of the night, every damn gig- especially when we kept the place packed and drinking til 2AM. We've fixed most of these issues already, so it's all good. More or less my PTSD was talking when read the topic and some responses. We've been ripped off a few times by shady bars, so yeah.. those places want us to play, for peanuts, we're likely to say no (we have a minimum book fee now), but if we do say yes, and it's tiny or cheap, or there's a bad history.. we will still play our hearts out, but we aren't lugging in the big guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 10, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 10, 2015 You gotta set your minimums and have your boundaries otherwise you're just a $5 hooker. The topic has been beaten to death here, but Bars Pay Less = Bands Work For Less = Bands Feel Justified To Put On Less Of A Show = Fewer People Care About Live Music = Bars Pay Less has been a vicious downward cycle that's been going on for 20 years now. As musicians, we all have that "I love playing so much, I'd do it for free" gene that exists within us. That's pretty much the definition of one's heart being in the music. But if we ACTUALLY start playing for free (or so cheaply it may as well be for free) then, like the $5 hooker, how much respect can we expect the bar owners and the audiences to have for us, regardless of how good the blow job might be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 10, 2015 Members Share Posted February 10, 2015 I hear ya. Our next gig is in a small bar for StPatty's day. We are looking to play a bar in the next town. It's small, they have subs & tops and a couple monitors. I'll probably bring my mixer & monitors, mics as well. And then some lights to put on a good show. We will invite people to check us out and use it like a showcase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted February 14, 2015 Members Share Posted February 14, 2015 You gotta set your minimums and have your boundaries otherwise you're just a $5 hooker. The topic has been beaten to death here, but Bars Pay Less = Bands Work For Less = Bands Feel Justified To Put On Less Of A Show = Fewer People Care About Live Music = Bars Pay Less has been a vicious downward cycle that's been going on for 20 years now. As musicians, we all have that "I love playing so much, I'd do it for free" gene that exists within us. That's pretty much the definition of one's heart being in the music. But if we ACTUALLY start playing for free (or so cheaply it may as well be for free) then, like the $5 hooker, how much respect can we expect the bar owners and the audiences to have for us, regardless of how good the blow job might be? Well that's why back in 2012, we established a minimum. Some bars didn't want to pay it, and we no longer play those bars. Pretty straight forward. We dropped about 60% of our venues by doing that, but in the same breath, I think we're all happier not playing those places anyways. Like your $5 whore analogy, we won't ever make it into the bigger clubs if we can't move on from the back alleyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 14, 2015 Members Share Posted February 14, 2015 We have one rig. It does $600 bar shows and $3,000 weddings. We really couldn't do it any other way. The trailer has the gear, the mixer is pre-wired with drop snakes for each instrument and everything rolls in on it's own cart, or already has wheels. Doing anything else would take more time. The only time we "do less" is if the place has lights, or can't fit ours. Even if they have PA we'll bring ours in as we sound better than any installed system we're we have less than full control. Frankly,even if there's a sound tech and installed PA, we'll try and use ours and run it ourselves. Just too many bad experiences with hack systems and hack operators. This doesn't really happen much, if at all, anymore though and when it does it's usually a casino where you have no choice but to take their full production or not play. That's really the only time we shrug our shoulders and just accept it's going to sound 40%-70% as good as if we could just do it ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 15, 2015 Members Share Posted February 15, 2015 no doubt hey. I think I'm going to use the subs. It will be a fuller sound even in the small place. They are in the trailer anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members quickie1 Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 I've evolved on this somewhat. I used to bring out everything. Now, equipment is scaled to how much the event is paying. Hard to do sometimes. This is an interesting statement. I have played...about 100 "live" performances, the majority in the 80's and 90's. I played at a local club named "Uncle Charlies", where Huey Lewis really got his start. Opened for him also. That club had it's own P.A. system and if you brought your own sound guy, it produced excellent sound. I have never brought just as much as I needed because of a monetary value of pay. I'm a bassist and had an SVT 810 setup as well as Hartke 15's, and it never crossed my mind to "carry light". My band was used to hearing my tone and I was used to hearing theirs. Playing live was just another rehearsal for us, with people and we gave it our all. As I am now meeting with some musicians to start rehersing and playing out live again, I have the 410 bottom rs750 head and 15 combo etc., and will bring what is needed for my tone....high pay or low pay. I play music....from my heart. I don't "play better" if I'm paid better. Prostitutes however, have that exact mind set. From an individual standpoint, everyone is pretty much going to use what they feel they need to get "their" sound. I think that's going to be true with almost any band and situation. I'm thinking more of the 'group' aspect of things. When it comes to PA and lights, the point of what you need to get through the gig is probably reached pretty easily. After that, we're adding extra sound and lights in order to create a specific image for the band that hopefully is reflected in future revenue, but I doubt anyone is ever going to say "wow---that's so great you had those 4 extra par cans in the back!" and toss you an extra 100 bucks because of it. The other side of that is how tempting it can be to cut back. We've had gigs where, usually due to size restraints, we can't bring in all the lights or the risers. Everyone is always glad to not deal with the extra gear, and we always go over just as well as if we did set it up. So then it seems like every time we show up to a gig, somebody in the band comes to me and says "gee...I dunno if we're gonna have room for the risers on this stage? Are you sure we need them?" No. We don't "need" them. Nobody is going to pay us less for not using them. Nobody at the gig is going to specifically notice that we don't have them. We're not going to play the songs any worse without them. But do we look better with them? I absolutely 100% think so. Does this translate into better paying gigs down the road? I'd at least LIKE to think it does, because I think it sets forth a consistent impression of the "level" of a band that we are (or at least want to present ourselves as being). But maybe it doesn't translate into better money and is just waste of time and effort? Your band is very good. Your bassist needs to be less "middy" and carry some better low end, IMHO. We were never into cover tunes, but with a band such as yours, I could see a good living being made from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Your band is very good. Your bassist needs to be less "middy" and carry some better low end, IMHO. We were never into cover tunes, but with a band such as yours, I could see a good living being made from it. Thanks for the compliment! The bass player runs through a Radial "Tonebone" preamp direct into the PA. So his sound is pretty much all what the sound engineer decides it is going to be. AFAIK, they both are happy with the tone, and I certainly feels the subs thumping when we're gigging. But I'll keep an ear out for sure to see if I hear anything that sounds off to me. What were you listening to where the bass sounded bad, BTW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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