Failing JBL PRX635's

[Art Flood]

Originally Posted by Mutha Goose

ChiroVette: FWIW Like you I labored over the 635 or 612 decision. In the end I went with the 612s (I have 4 of them). I did this for a few reasons:

1. Weight
2. Configurability (use 2 or 4 depending on application)
3. Clarity
4. etc.

I am very happy with the performance. They pair wonderfully with the XLFs. The system is very well balanced and clear.

Hi Mutha,

Did you also double up on subs? Or can the one XLF cope with a pair of 612s. ( I am asking as I need a bit more coverage for some gigs and thinking of getting another pair of 612s for my current set up)

Thanks

[agedhorse]

The DSR is indeed another viable option.

I find that for the music styles that I work with, 1 sub to 1 top is plenty good.

[Zeromus-X]

Originally Posted by Art Flood

Hi Mutha,

Did you also double up on subs? Or can the one XLF cope with a pair of 612s. ( I am asking as I need a bit more coverage for some gigs and thinking of getting another pair of 612s for my current set up)

Thanks

One XLF would probably be fine with a pair of 612s. The bigger issue with the 612s (and 635s, to my ears) is spreading out the sound; they're fairly directional cabinets to my ears. Move off axis a bit and you lose the vocals, moreso with the 612 than the 635. A pair of them splayed left and right on top of each XLF would probably work phenomenal.

I wish they made the XLFs or the 635s a little taller, sitting on each other they look like they need about another 6" of space. It's easy to buy a threaded pole and cut it down, but why bother. They're just too short sitting on each other and just too tall on a pole.

[Randyman]

sbrett wrote:

We ended up going with the 635s and couldn't be happier. Our system is one 635 and one 618-XLF per side.

I don't think clarity is a deciding factor between the 635 and 612. They both sound great.

Sounds like the 635s get the job done better for you than the 612s would have. What do you like about them compared to the 612s?

[Art Flood]

 

Originally Posted by Zeromus-X

One XLF would probably be fine with a pair of 612s. The bigger issue with the 612s (and 635s, to my ears) is spreading out the sound; they're fairly directional cabinets to my ears. Move off axis a bit and you lose the vocals, moreso with the 612 than the 635. A pair of them splayed left and right on top of each XLF would probably work phenomenal.

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Thanks

[Mutha Goose]

Originally Posted by Zeromus-X

One XLF would probably be fine with a pair of 612s. The bigger issue with the 612s (and 635s, to my ears) is spreading out the sound; they're fairly directional cabinets to my ears. Move off axis a bit and you lose the vocals, moreso with the 612 than the 635. A pair of them splayed left and right on top of each XLF would probably work phenomenal...

Depending on the room demensions, this is exactly how I use the 612s, but I don't see it as an "issue". This is one of the benefits of the 612s IMO, and was one of the factors in me buying them. I can control and steer where I want high SPL and where I don't. This is particularly useful in reflective rooms, or rooms with bars in bad locations (It is never good to blast out the bar. Bar tenders need to hear their -and our- customers.).

I do own 4 XLFs as well. In most cases I only use 2. The low frequency extension on the XLFs do a really nice job of "filling" most rooms (

[sbrett]

Originally Posted by Randyman

sbrett wrote:


Sounds like the 635s get the job done better for you than the 612s would have. What do you like about them compared to the 612s?

I think when it comes down to it we just like the look of the 635s over the subs

Honestly though the midrange driver helps quite a bit with the overall sound of the system. There seems to be a bit more detail in what you hear compared to 612/618 combo. We also occasionally use just the tops by themselves, and they work a little better like that than the 612s would.

[ChiroVette]

 

Originally Posted by sbrett

We also occasionally use just the tops by themselves, and they work a little better like that than the 612s would.

 

Honestly, if you use the tops without subs with a full band pretty much ever, then the 15" driver would be the way to go with or without the extra horn in the 635, but that is a nice bonus.

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

How important is weight?

QSC KW's are a good alterantive to the PRX IMO.

Not just weight but price and size as well. One other factor is matching, too. I assume that if I go with the KW series that I should forget the 618xlf and instead get the KW181? This is becoming a VERY HARD choice. Before reading the responses in this thread I was absolutely set on the 612m's as monitors and tops and a pair of the 618xlf. Now it is a tough choice, to be honest. Another issue of major concern to me is this concept of off-axis listening. How prevalent is this with the PRX compared to other cabs in this class? I mean the way it sounds in this thread is that these speakers are pretty much line-of-sight and anything out of the direct line is going to sound like crap and lose clarity, particularly the vocals. Definitely not looking to spend 10 grand on a PA and have it only sound good to a very small fraction of the people in a bar.

lol I am picturing myself getting on the mic at every show and saying, "All right everyone. Just a reminder. See the direction the two top speakers are facing? Good. Now you all need to form two straight lines from the front of the speakers to the front of the bar and whatever you do, DO NOT MOVE from that line EVER. No dancing, moving off the line to buy drinks, and certainly don't bend down to tie your shoelaces!

[sbrett]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Not just weight but price and size as well. One other factor is matching, too. I assume that if I go with the KW series that I should forget the 618xlf and instead get the KW181? This is becoming a VERY HARD choice. Before reading the responses in this thread I was absolutely set on the 612m's as monitors and tops and a pair of the 618xlf. Now it is a tough choice, to be honest. Another issue of major concern to me is this concept of off-axis listening. How prevalent is this with the PRX compared to other cabs in this class? I mean the way it sounds in this thread is that these speakers are pretty much line-of-sight and anything out of the direct line is going to sound like crap and lose clarity, particularly the vocals. Definitely not looking to spend 10 grand on a PA and have it only sound good to a very small fraction of the people in a bar.

lol I am picturing myself getting on the mic at every show and saying, "All right everyone. Just a reminder. See the direction the two top speakers are facing? Good. Now you all need to form two straight lines from the front of the speakers to the front of the bar and whatever you do, DO NOT MOVE from that line EVER. No dancing, moving off the line to buy drinks, and certainly don't bend down to tie your shoelaces!

I wouldn't say they are THAT directional. They are a little directional, but we've found that to be a good thing quite a few times. If people need a 'break' from the music to have a conversation, order drinks, whatever then they can easily just sort of move out of the way. Just sayin it's not necessarily a bad thing. Guess it depends on the types of places you play.

[ChiroVette]

 

Originally Posted by sbrett

I wouldn't say they are THAT directional. They are a little directional, but we've found that to be a good thing quite a few times. If people need a 'break' from the music to have a conversation, order drinks, whatever then they can easily just sort of move out of the way. Just sayin it's not necessarily a bad thing. Guess it depends on the types of places you play.

 

Hmmm This is an interesting position as well. The reason is that we play Grateful Dead music and our shows are always very "social." As a band we always try to keep the volume low enough so that people can talk and chat if they are more than a few feet in front of the stage. SO as you say, the directional think may be a good thing. The way I was interpreting the comments was that if you are in the line of sight, they sound great, but if you are out of the line of sight, they sound muddy and crappy, which obviously would be unacceptable. I don't mind losing volume off axis, but losing clarity would completely defeat the purpose of a new PA system in my opinion.

[agedhorse]

The directionality is very similar to every other speaker in that class.

If size and weight and price are a big deal to you, then the PRX probably win out.

You have to make the decision.

I would not mix the two brands or model lines. Both are designed as a complete solution and have electrionics that match well.

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

The directionality is very similar to every other speaker in that class.

If size and weight and price are a big deal to you, then the PRX probably win out.

You have to make the decision.

I would not mix the two brands or model lines. Both are designed as a complete solution and have electrionics that match well.

Yeah that one I have to completely agree with. I can't see mixing these tops and bottoms unless one had an insanely good reason to do it, which clearly I don't. Also, if the directionality is a common denominator with ALL of these speakers and is not a big deal or something that would negatively impact my band's shows, then it probably shouldn't even be a factor other than the possibility of using 4 tops angled the way you suggested or in an extreme case, simply opting for better cabinets than the PRX, K or KW, or the Yamaha's mentioned in this thread?

Let me ask this one: factoring out the weight, size, and price for a second, would it be a correct assessment to say that the PRX's have a slightly better sound and slightly more SPL than the K or KW cabs, BUT that the QSCs are slightly more reliable and less prone to warranty issues coming up that could end or cripple a show?

Because in cases like this I am reminded of the fact that my experience with tech is that problems with a line (such as I remember a ton of people complaining about with the original XBox 360 and the RRoD issues as well as good quality speaker systems) are usually highly exaggerated because complaints go viral on the web.

In your experience, Aged, is this a fair assessment? Or should the reported reliability issues with the PRX give me some pause for concern?

[Al Poulin]

After all I've read about the 635 - and not just on DJforums - I would simply avoid them completely. There are so many reports of them shutting down, overheating - and not necessarily when at high output or when being abused. How often do you read of a Yorkville, QSC, RCF or even freakin' Behringer cab having thermal issues reported by so many users? Something is wrong in the design of the 635, simple as that. Whether it be a defective amp module or poor heat dissipation leading to thermal shutdown, JBL seems to have screwed up somewhere with this product.

Al

[sibyrnes]

You sure bring up some valid points, Al. It makes me wonder what is unique about the 635. I don't see reported problems with the rest of the PRX line. My four 618S-XLF'S have been trouble free for almost two years now.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

In your experience, Aged, is this a fair assessment? Or should the reported reliability issues with the PRX give me some pause for concern?

 

For the most part I think this is pretty accurate. I am much more concerned about the extended turnaround times that seem to becoming an issue. QSC's service is first rate IMO.

[Miko Man]

 

Originally Posted by sibyrnes

You sure bring up some valid points, Al. It makes me wonder what is unique about the 635. I don't see reported problems with the rest of the PRX line. My 618S-XLF'S have been trouble free for almost two years now.

 

The thing that jumps out at me is that the 635 has three amp modules in them; most of the rest of the series only have two. (Do you know of anybody who owns the PRX 625? I don't recall anybody here discussing them.) My non-engineer brain says that three amps likely produce 50% more heat than two amps do. IIRC, the PRX amps appear to run hotter at reduced levels than they do "full out." If so, then the reduced power requirements of the two smaller drivers might add to the issue. But I'm merely speculating; I may well be very wrong. Mark C.

[sibyrnes]

My XLF'S do get hot, but they have held up even on hot, summer outdoor gigs. I assume that they are designed to work that way. I hope my faith in the engineers at Crown is not misguided!

[duck995]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

For the most part I think this is pretty accurate. I am much more concerned about the extended turnaround times that seem to becoming an issue. QSC's service is first rate IMO.

Aged Horse - Right now my full rig includes 4 - PRX635s. Because of my personal experience of having 2 of them die, and then the present long turnaround in repair, I am considering selling the 4- 635 and replacing them with 6 - 612m. I am sure there is a technical difference to this, but do you think to the listener's ear there would be much difference?

It is a tossup for convenience - I would have 6 speakers to deal with instead of 4, but individually they would be a lot lighter.

Thanks in advance!

[agedhorse]

Good question. The 635 has much better low end so using with subs is probably necessary all the time. Also the mid character is different, but overall either the 612's or 635s are plenty adequate depending on the room and your needs. I like the 612's for size and weight myself.

Originally Posted by duck995

Aged Horse - Right now my full rig includes 4 - PRX635s. Because of my personal experience of having 2 of them die, and then the present long turnaround in repair, I am considering selling the 4- 635 and replacing them with 6 - 612m. I am sure there is a technical difference to this, but do you think to the listener's ear there would be much difference?

It is a tossup for convenience - I would have 6 speakers to deal with instead of 4, but individually they would be a lot lighter.

Thanks in advance!

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Good question. The 635 has much better low end so using with subs is probably necessary all the time.

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but did you mean to say that sometimes using the 635 without the subs would be all right but that the 612's would need the subs all the time?

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Also the mid character is different, but overall either the 612's or 635s are plenty adequate depending on the room and your needs. I like the 612's for size and weight myself.

Can you elaborate on this a little? My gut feeling, which is perhaps erroneous, is that if you are using the 612's over the subs that it might sound a little better than a 15" based cabinet over a sub. Although I assume that the presence of the mid range horn would at least somewhat mitigate that?

I guess the question is if you were planning on using the subs all the time, would the 612 be a better overall sounding cabinet or would the 635 still edge it out?

Sorry, I am just still a little confused by all this.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but did you mean to say that sometimes using the 635 without the subs would be all right but that the 612's would need the subs all the time?

Yes, most likely for most users.

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Can you elaborate on this a little? My gut feeling, which is perhaps erroneous, is that if you are using the 612's over the subs that it might sound a little better than a 15" based cabinet over a sub. Although I assume that the presence of the mid range horn would at least somewhat mitigate that?

I guess the question is if you were planning on using the subs all the time, would the 612 be a better overall sounding cabinet or would the 635 still edge it out?

Sorry, I am just still a little confused by all this.

The 635 over subs would sound just fine but is quite a bit bigger and heavier (and more expensive) than 612's over subs. Otherwise, I think both would be adequate. IF you wanted to use a cabinet without a sub, the 635 would be the clear winner IMO.

[OneEng]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but did you mean to say that sometimes using the 635 without the subs would be all right but that the 612's would need the subs all the time?



Can you elaborate on this a little? My gut feeling, which is perhaps erroneous, is that if you are using the 612's over the subs that it might sound a little better than a 15" based cabinet over a sub. Although I assume that the presence of the mid range horn would at least somewhat mitigate that?

I guess the question is if you were planning on using the subs all the time, would the 612 be a better overall sounding cabinet or would the 635 still edge it out?

Sorry, I am just still a little confused by all this.

The 635's are 3 way speakers (ie there is a dedicated amp for each of 3 speakers (woofer, mid horn, high horn). The cross-over separates out the signal into 3 separate amps. Each one of these is designed to put only the frequencies each respective driver handles best into their amps.

What this all means is that it should be theoretically easier to make a 635 sound better on vocals than a 612 when using them as tops.

The big downsides are weight and size ..... and debateably, you wouldn't really be utilizing as much of the 15" woofer's capabilities since the XLF's only put >90Hz up to them.

What small difference you might hear could be eq'd to be very close IMHO. The weight and size ... not so much

[ChiroVette]

Yeah lots of food for thought, aged and OneEng and I am still torn. One part of me, the JBL fanboy part, really wants the PRX tops over the XLF subs. The other part of me is just not happy with what I am hearing about JBL's support of their cabinets of late.

I am still torn between the 635's and the 612m's and I agree about the "theoretical power" increase by having a 1500 watt cab versus a 1000 watt cab, and if two of the speakers were woofers, then I would be more impressed, to be honest. The problem I have with the so-called extra power is HOW MUCH power can you really send to that mid-range horn? I think it was agedhorse a while back in another thread who gave us all a breakdown of his opinion of the actual power of these cabinets and how a great deal of it is truly lost once you factor in horns. So I am not sure how much appreciable power I am going to hear in the 635 Vs the 612.

What I find REALLY attractive about the 635 is the fact that it has that mid range horn which, in my opinion, might make up for any "loss of sonic information" that may be present with a 15" + tweeter horn. I don't care much about the weight or size, but what I do like about the 612's, as I said, is the fact that I prefer a 12" based top because I find the 15" over the sub just a little "woofy" for my taste. Also, the idea of having four to six 612's all mixed up for doubling up on the front end as well as backup to go from monitor to top duty in the case of any top failure. lol It is all very confusing to me, to be quite honest, but in a good way that means I am actually...ya know, learning something here.

I actually think I like the PRX line over both the K and KW line, to be quite honest, but here is the caveat: I listened to both series cabinets in Guitar Center. I mean, seriously, how in the hell can one tell which PA is better sounding when using one or two vocal mics or simply playing an MP3 player through it? I just don't think that an in-store demo for a guy at my knowledge level yielded me ANY more information than I have already gleaned from you guys in this forum or from a couple of my buddies who live upstate and who I trust implicitly.

[duck995]

The question of failing PRX635s...

I called JBL and talked with one of their techs yesterday.

First, his personal opinion was that he would prefer 612s on top of subs over 635s over subs. He did not think there would be a lot of audible difference and he actually prefers the two-ways for performing, however he said given that, he mixes at home with the 635's.

Why is there numerous mentions on the web about failing 635's? He said that cabinet has been one of the best selling cabinets they have ever had and that there are a LOT of them out there. Proportionate to the number sold, he said that they do not have a higher failure rate. He said that their service problems right now are related to parts availability and the problem is equally affecting all their cabinets (non-sub, that is).

I appreciate the conversation about 612's and 635's - it is helping me decide what I want to do with my rig. The 635's are nice in that for smaller venues I don't need to bring a sub - and even though I am not making full use of the speaker with subs it is nice to have the flexibility (of using with or without subs). I don't think I would be satisfied with 612's only, however I have used the 615's in small venues and I thought they covered the range pretty well.

JBL's explanation about failure rate of 635's helps some. My first two were early on in production, and it may be that they had problems that have been corrected on the production line since - and as mine are serviced the problem is taken care of. (note to self - ask JBL tech support if you call them back!)

Thanks everyone for your comments - especially AH for answering my specific questions.