To Be Good - GOS WIP - Demo with new layout added 10/1

[rhino55]

haha... nope this isn't a choose your own adventure book.

[Lee Knight]

Personally... I think good is universal and never needed any book to lead the way. Everyone knows what good is. Of course that can be proven wrong with logic but fact doesn't always equal truth. By not quantifying good, it makes the point Justin is trying to make. In my eyes at least. Keep it simple and true to your intent.

[Lee Knight]

In fact... As soon as you start quantifying it too much, you bring doctrine into it. The is the point being so far in the song as far as I can see. Justin seems to be saying, I don't what to replace their bs with my bs, I want to personally shun ALL bs. Doctrine.

[mbfrancis]

"Our whole system of western morals is based on that book."

 

I vehemently disagree with this. In fact, my disagreement with that line of thinking is the crux of this entire song.

 

"If you're trying to say we are or can be passed it...."

 

No, I'm trying to say that it is BS and always has been, and that it has little or nothing to do with morality as we know it.

 

Hey Justin, just to clarify, do you think human ethics are innate and not culturally passed down? I guess you could argue that all faith traditions have codified similar codes of ethics, and that we don't need them (the traditions) anymore...that would be interesting.

 

Maybe mention that religions come to us from a time when we didn't understand how *anything* worked, and needed some kind of meta-narrative to account for all the stuff we couldn't explain. So society - just like you and your learning! - is smarter now and we don't need those ethical training wheels, or crutches, or whatever.

 

[Lee Knight]

The fact is that people are good, Give people affection and security, and they will give affection and be secure in their feelings and their behavior. Abraham Maslow

[Oswlek]

 

Hey Justin, just to clarify, do you think human ethics are innate and not culturally passed down? I guess you could argue that all faith traditions have codified similar codes of ethics, and that we don't need them (the traditions) anymore...that would be interesting.

 

Maybe mention that religions come to us from a time when we didn't understand how *anything* worked, and needed some kind of meta-narrative to account for all the stuff we couldn't explain. So society - just like you and your learning! - is smarter now and we don't need those ethical training wheels, or crutches, or whatever.

 

No, Martin, I'm saying the exact opposite. Morality is cultivated and adapted by society, passing and evolving from generation to generation. That there is no definitive truth handed down from an almighty source, only the combination of time, learning and the natural empathy that is found across the entire animal kingdom.

 

More importantly, morality does not need and never needed the dogma associated with religion. I can be a good man without carrying sinner's guilt.

 

I completely agree with the latter part. There is a reason why God hasn't been seen directly since mankind adopted a more scientific persona.

[LCK]

1) I want some of whatever Lee's smoking.

2) Just my opinion but, I think v1 needs to work *a lot* harder, needs to pull more exposition weight.

 

I could be totally wrong here.

 

You're totally wrong Martin! (... in my opinion)... I think there's only one thing wrong with the opening verse: the word parishioners has too many syllables.

 

Maybe "the faithful" instead?

 

I'm also not a fan of the F word. Of course you need something with some anger and pain behind it. Maybe "goddamn plan?"

 

At any rate, I think this is pretty much cooked. Next step, the mix...

[Oswlek]

Idea for the latter part of V1

 

Early Sunday morning

Parishioners are pouring in

For weekly mass

 

It used to hold such meaning

But I've lost every reason

To still buy in

 

What good is the burden

Of eternal burning

From original sin

 

I don't need...

 

Just a sketch. I'd much prefer a consistent rhyme at the end of each verse and I'd also prefer it if the latter verse could be more direct about how threats don't really motivate someone to be a good person.

[Oswlek]

 

You're totally wrong Martin! (... in my opinion)... I think there's only one thing wrong with the opening verse: the word parishioners has too many syllables.

 

Maybe "the faithful" instead?

 

I'm also not a fan of the F word. Of course you need something with some anger and pain behind it. Maybe "goddamn plan?"

 

At any rate, I think this is pretty much cooked. Next step, the mix...

 

Thanks, Lee. I am totally against the F-word in song. It usually strikes me as a cop out, but I kinda like it here. It is true to how this person feels and leads into the more emphatic delivery.

 

As for "Parishioners", I agree there as well, but it sings surprisingly well and creates alliteration with "pouring".

 

As for the rest of V1, I'm thrilled that you dig it, but I'm hoping the post above this one is onto a better track. Yes? No?

[Oswlek]

Or maybe

 

It used to hold such meaning

But I've lost every reason

To still buy in

 

I don't see how burdens

And threats of eternal burning

Make me a better man

[Oswlek]

Alright, I think this is coming together. Still debating Lee's P and F words, anything else in need of firming up? Should I be concerned about "die for me" leading into "I'm afraid to die"? Could V2 be tightened up a little or is the casual aspect of it a plus? Any way to get the consistent rhyme at the end of V1 stanzas or is that not necessary?

 

V1

Early Sunday morning

Parishioners still pouring in

For weekly mass

 

It used to hold such meaning

But I can't find a reason

To still buy in

 

Tell me how these burdens

And threats of endless burning

Make me a better man

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me

To be good

 

V2

Now I'm free to make mistakes

I make them every day

It's just who I am

 

I don't have to be forgiven

Or worry if I'm livin'

By some fvcking plan

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me

To be good

 

B

Yeah, I'm afraid to die

But I don't have to lie to myself

Or hide from a hell

That He built

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me

To be good

[Oswlek]

Another spitball..

 

It used to hold such meaning

But I keep losing reasons

To accept

 

It's not right, but something like this would be nice:

 

It used to hold such meaning

But I keep losing reasons

For faith to last

[stickboymusic]

Other comments aside can I just say I LOVE these lo-fi recordings

 

Add a harmony vocal all the way through and you're the new Iron&wine with a bit of damien rice

 

Not a bad place to be at all my friend.

[Oswlek]

Thanks Stick!

 

Still trying to solve that one damn line:

 

It used to hold such meaning

But I keep losing reasons

To maintain the act

 

It used to hold such meaning

I'm running out of reasons

To keep up the act

 

 

The first one isn't quite right because "maintain" feels out of character, but the second doesn't give me space for the "but" before line two. If it weren't for the dual "keep" I'd probably take the first two lines of the first option and the last line of the second option. But I'd love feedback and/or a better suggestion.

[stickboymusic]

 

It used to hold such meaning

But Im always losing reasons

To Keep up the act

 

It used to hold such meaning

But Im losing all the reasons

To Keep up the act

 

It used to hold such meaning

But I cant find no reasons

To Keep up the act

 

[rsadasiv]

Other comments aside can I just say I LOVE these lo-fi recordings

 

Add a harmony vocal all the way through and you're the new Iron&wine with a bit of damien rice

 

Not a bad place to be at all my friend.

 

+1

[Oswlek]

Thanks for the suggestions, Stick (and for the kudos, Ram). I played with them for a while this morning and ended up going with "running out of reasons". Even though I don't get a but, it seems to get the idea across well enough. I also cut out the "me" from "make ME a better man" because it gives a bit more breathing space to work with. Hopefully that doesn't make it veer away from the personal to the generic.

 

Does this look like a capable final?

 

V1

Early Sunday morning

Parishioners still pouring in

For weekly mass

 

It used to hold such meaning

I'm running out of reasons

To keep up the act

 

Tell me how these burdens

Threats of endless burning

Make a better man

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me

To be good

 

V2

Now I'm free to make mistakes

I make 'em every day

It's just who I am

 

I don't have to be forgiven

Or worry if I'm livin'

By some fvcking plan

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me

To be good

 

B

Yeah, I'm afraid to die

But I don't have to lie to myself

Or hide from a hell

That He built

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me... die for me....

To be good

[tbry]

Doesn't need alliteration. Faithful has its own alliteration

 

Early Sunday morning

Parishioners (Faithfull) still pouring in

For weekly mass

 

I don't have to be forgiven

Or worry if I'm livin'

By some fvcking (Freakin) plan

[mbfrancis]

Die *he* build hell or did *we* build hell?

[Oswlek]

Die *he* build hell or did *we* build hell?

 

I'm saying "He" sarcastically. That the whole idea of hell is nonsensical to me. Why would a loving God create me with the edict that I worship him or suffer eternal torment? And if he is omniscient, doesn't he know the moment of conception that I'm heading there?

 

Would that idea get across better as "we built"?

 

Doesn't need alliteration. Faithful has its own alliteration

Early Sunday morning

Parishioners (Faithfull) still pouring in

For weekly mass

 

I don't have to be forgiven

Or worry if I'm livin'

By some fvcking (Freakin) plan

 

 

Thanks, tb.

 

I tried "freaking" and it feels like I'm wimping out. If I'm going to say it, I feel like I should say it.

 

I'm also aware that "faithful" has it's own alliteration, but it doesn't quite blend in with the rest of the phrase as well. Not only does "parishioners" have the "p", but it has two "er" sounds that echo "early", "pouring" and "for" nicely. Or, at least it does to me, but I'll get a real demo up in a few weeks and we'll see then.

[Oswlek]

Anyone have an opinion on whether this is good to go? Or whether I should go with "that WE built" instead of "that HE built"?

 

I also heard from someone else that "good" isn't a strong ending word. I'm really hoping it works here, but I suppose I'm open to suggestion if everyone agrees.

 

Any strong opinions either way?

 

V1

Early Sunday morning

Parishioners still pouring in

For weekly mass

 

It used to hold such meaning

I'm running out of reasons

To keep up the act

 

Tell me how these burdens

Threats of endless burning

Make a better man

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me

To be good

 

V2

Now I'm free to make mistakes

I make 'em every day

It's just who I am

 

I don't have to be forgiven

Or worry if I'm livin'

By some fvcking plan

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me

To be good

 

B

Yeah, I'm afraid to die

But I don't have to lie to myself

Or hide from a hell

That He built

 

C

I don't need a God to be good

I don't need this holy book

I can't believe

It takes a man to bleed

And die for me... die for me....

To be good

[mbfrancis]

It's great. I would only change 'good' if you can think of a better ending/title.

[Lee Knight]

Personally... I love it. I think the humble nature of the word "good" has a nice effect. And carries weight in its understatement. Maybe that's just me. And Justin, it's cool seeing you stretch, not even with the subject matter, but with a different writing pov from your comfort zone. The tone feels new for you and it suits you well.

[Oswlek]

Awesome thanks guys. "Good" does seem to bother a few people, but Lee is exactly on target with what I'm going for so I'm inclined to keep it.

 

I'm still toying with the he/we thing.

 

That WE built - this implies in an XTC manner that we are the architects of all the dogma and therefor I don't have to fear eternal damnation.

 

That HE built - this is asking why I would ever worship a God who would even consider creating hell in the first place, let alone sending the vast majority of humanity there.

 

I prefer the meaning behind HE, but I think WE is clearer and adds a touch more context to the subject matter. At this point I'm leaning toward WE.

 

Lee, it is a stretch for me. I'm generally not so brazen about what I'm saying. In fact, if you recall a recent song by the name of "Meaning", this was the subject matter that inspired it, I just wasn't willing to say it so blatantly.

 

Thanks again!

[mbfrancis]

I was leaning towards 'he'...but in the context of the bridge, 'we' is a nice change of perspective, hammering home that these are constructs of humans, vs. the tack you've taken throughout 'I don;t believe in a God that *would* do x, y, z.'.