RCF ART 310a vs Alto TS112a?

[hammondman]

Well I used the Alto TS112a again tonight for an acoustic jazz gig and it sounded great! When I think that I only paid £100 for the as new TS112a it seems like a complete bargain and offers outstanding value for money! I am going to hold off the RCF 310a but noticed the 710a only costs around £40 more! I'm wondering how this compares to the 310a?

[Al Poulin]

The 710A has a better compression driver, more applied power / output capability and is a little sexier than the 310A IMO. It is usually 2X the price of the 310A in Canada and the US. They should get significantly louder AND sound better than the TS112As.

 

Al

[hammondman]

Hi Al. Yes I noticed that the 710a has a better compression driver and max SPL. Do you have any idea how the low frequencies of the 710a compares to the 310a? Is it pretty much the same but with a sweeter top end and output?

[Louis Schwartz]

You can find the specs for comparison here:

 

http://www.rcf.it/en_US/professional-speaker-systems

 

Louis

[hammondman]

Thanks. I have read the specs but would like to know peoples experiences of both of these?

[agedhorse]

The 700 series is a much more substantial series, also reflected in the cost.

[sibyrnes]

Yeah, funny how this thread starts out talking about one of the least expensive "acceptable" speakers and ends up with one costing over four times as much!

 

I'm sorry, but even though they produce a quality product, RCF makes some ugly looking cabs! They would have looked modern in the 80's.

[hammondman]

To buy the Alto TS112a and RCF 710a new they cost £249 vs £400 new in the UK. The RCF 310a costs around £350 but as the 710a is only £50 more it would make more sense to get the 710a. However, I had a fantastic deal and only paid £300 for a pair of TS112a's and am not sure if I could justify the extra cost when the Alto TS112a has been working out great so far. We've been getting great compliments on the sound from other very experienced touring session players.

 

 

 

[agedhorse]

As I said before, if the RCF is 4x the performance for 2x the price, it's a no branier IF you need 4x or even 2x the performance. If you don't need that performance, then the Alto is the way to go.

[hammondman]

If the RCF's are THAT good then I ought to try the 710a out at some point in the near future! Apparently the 710a's used to cost around £800 each!!?? RCF dropped the prices on some of the 7 series last year!

 

Another option I'm considering is keeping the TS112a's and get a DB Technologies Sub 12-D. From my understanding these are made by RCF? These are now selling for £390 each.

[hammondman]

I used the Alto TS112a's again today for a gospel vocal quartet + piano and bass and had several comments on how good they sounded. When a couple of people asked me how much they cost to buy and I told them £500 a pair they were generally shocked that these speakers cost so little for the quality they put out. Then I told them I only paid £300 for mine due to a fantastic deal they were astonished!

The rest of my mini pa is of good quality and we use Sennheiser E935, Shure beta 58, Audix OM3 and JZ HH1 mics.

 

I'm planning on getting a couple of Sennheiser E945 mics as these are amongst the clearest I've heard so far along with the JZ HH1. I've also just bought an Allen and Heath ZED 10fx mixer which has clearer pres and nicer eq than the Behringer QX1002 I've been borrowing. With these upgrades this will further improve the already excellent results I've been getting with the Altos!

 

Does the RCF 710a have as much bass response as the Alto TS112a?

[agedhorse]

IMO. yes when correctly tuned. And it has 4x the overall perforrmance IMO.

 

You seem set on how good of a deal you got, great. Be happy that you think you got a good deal.

[hammondman]

The reason why I've mentioned how much I paid for my Alto TS112a's is because the RCF 710a's would cost me a significant amount more. A pair of RCF 710a's will cost me £810 a pair and then I'd need to buy cases for them which would be another £80-£100 a pair. I am definitely not saying the RCF's won't be better it's just that I have to be able to justify the extra cost and when I've been consistently getting good comments on the sound I've been getting through the Alto's it needs to make sense financially. They would need to be at least 3x better! Money is a little tight at the moment having a 11month old baby

I am used to using KV2 Audio pa's so I know how nice very high quality active speakers can sound.

[hammondman]

I noticed that the EV ZLX12p's are at a lower price in Europe at the moment and cost £264 each which is only £20 more than the TS112a's! As a result I'm feeling quite tempted by these as I like the fact that it has three inputs and various DSP EQ options! I'm not sure how the audio quality of the ZLX12P compares to the TS112a or the RCF 710a?

[witesol]

without derailing the thread much more but if bass response is the prime concern, and you're sold on Alto's brand/value, why not get their 15" cab? is it a size consideration? For me anyhow it's everything else, primarily vocals, that would be the selling point of a 10 vs. 12" cab, or RCF vs. whomever. Whether or not there is added bass extension

[hammondman]

If I'm going to replace the TS112a's I would want something smaller and lighter.

I've spoken to a few dealers and users regarding the EV ZLX12p and RCF 710a and keep hearing pretty much the same responses. From the people I've spoken to, the EV ZLX12p and Alto TS112a are pretty much on a par audio quality wise with the EV perhaps offering a tiny bit more output and bass response. Some prefer the EV's and some prefer the Alto's! Also the EV ZLX12p's don't use EV drivers and have generic Chinese speakers??

 

With the RCF 710a's everyone without exception has said that it is a far superior speaker! It apparently has way more clarity and output and it's 10" driver at least matches the bass response of the TS112a if not outdo the Alto!

 

It doesn't seem worthwhile spending at least £250 extra on the EV ZLX12p's to what I paid for my TS112a's for marginal improvements if any!?

 

I now need to decide whether the RCF710a's are worth the extra £500 per pair for the 3kg per speaker I'll be saving!? Also I'm already getting lots of good comments on how good the Alto's sound which makes the decision quite harder!

[Al Poulin]

You're going to get significantly more output and clarity with the RCF - which is absolutely a much better speaker than the Alto BUT the 710A's low frequency response may leave you a little disapointed since it drops VERY quickly below 80hz according to RCF's frequency response graph. The Alto's low frequency response falls much more gradually and is still within a few DBs of the rest of the spectrum at 65hz.

[hammondman]

Hi Al. Yes that's what I would expect from those specs but apparently the RCF 710 at least keeps up with the Alto if not have even more bass in real world useage?

 

 

[Al Poulin]

It will more than keep up OUTPUT wise (and get noticebaly louder than the Alto), it simply won't sound as full/deep since it doesn't go as low, in spite of what the incorrect RCF frequency response spec. indicates. You can actually check out the frequency response graph on the RCF website which clearly shows a very quick drop in response below 80hz. You can probably boost the lows a little on your mixer/EQ to get the 710As to sound fuller, but any 10" speakers on stands will sound pretty weak without a sub (or subs) handling the low frequencies. 12s generally do a bit better (some can even provide usuable response down to 45hz) and 15s are often a better choice still if you really don't want to use subs. There are many variables at play of course, so I prefer not to make blanket statements, but usually bigger cabs and bigger woofers = deeper and higher output low frequencies. Subs are always best though. Small top cabs with subs are my favorite sounding combinations. At the moment, I am using a pair of DXR8 tops over a pair of DXS12 subs and this combo is simply fantastic for what I do (mostly wedding DJ applications) When not using the subs, I have a set of DXR15s that do very well on stands for smaller parties / weddings.

 

Al

[agedhorse]

Al, what makes you think the graph is correct? In practice, the 710's will keep up with the altos all the way across, but 100hz and above at least 6dB more useable spl.

[Al Poulin]

The graph provided by RCF? I would assume a manufacturer provided FR graph would be pretty accurate, although the actual response of the cabs would certainly very depending on placement / room acoustics. I know my RCF 310As don't sound very full once up on stands anyway, as much as I love their sound quality and output.

 

While I agree the RCFs will provide significantly more SPL than the Altos and sound better, I'm just not convinced they will go as low / sound as full - which is one of the main concerns of the OP. That said, if the Altos' LF response is boosted through processing, then they may only sound fuller than the RCFs at lower volumes. A pair of RCF HD-12As might be a better option for the OP as they do seem to have a much fuller/deeper response, from what I've read and according to the FR graph anyway.

 

Al

[agedhorse]

The hd series is another step up...

[Al Poulin]

The HD-12A is actually a little cheaper than 710A in Canada, anyway. At 36 lbs, I think it might be prfect for the OP.

[hammondman]

Ok, thought I'd post a quick update as it may be useful for anyone else deciding between these two speakers. I bought the ZLX 12P's this week as the price briefly dropped to £248 each which is pretty much the same price as the Altos!

I took them to a 250 seater hall today to give them a good workout and did an a/b with the Alto TS112a's. I have both pairs plugged into the aux outs of my Allen and Heath QU16 so that I could change speakers at the push of a button for quick comparison.

First thing I noticed is the EV looks slicker and more suited to higher end venues etc where appearance counts. The full front grill looks very professional and the cabinet looks sharper all round. The EV's are also slightly smaller and lighter than the Alto's which is always welcome. The EV's only have one side handle but due to their smaller size and weight handling was extremely easy and pole mounting was painless. In terms of build quality, the cabinets of both seem to be of similar quality but the EV's had nicer smoother volume pots that were indented at 12 o'clock which is where they should ideally be set when using them for live music. Also the inputs had lockable XLR sockets which stops the leads being accidentally pulled out the back which is a useful feature.

Here are some pictures of both speakers side by side so you can get an idea of the small size difference for yourself :-

 

 

 

 

The EV's feature set is far more comprehensive with a 3 channel mixer, treble + bass eq controls, a wide variety of DSP settings and the option to either have the front LED light up only when the limiter starts to work or off completely!

Ok, now to sound. When I turned both pairs of speakers on I noticed that the EV's had less hiss than the Alto's. Whilst I wouldn't say the Alto's were noisy the EV's were even cleaner. I spent about two hours playing a wide variety of music and also tried vocals through the speakers. I instantly noticed the EV's sounded much brighter than the Alto's regardless of which DSP setting I had them on. At first I wasn't sure if I liked this as the difference was pretty big! Then I plugged in a Sennheiser E838 into the desk and tried a quick vocal through both speakers. The EV's sound way clearer than the Alto's for this and my voice sounded far more articulate and detailed. I can remember having to generally brighten up any vocals I've put through the Alto's in the past so this shows promise for the EV's! I then went back to playing different recorded tracks through both speakers and I started to notice the Alto's sounded a little boxy by comparison and lacked the detail of the EV's. For example, on one busy rock track I heard a small shaker part that when flipped back to the Alto's wasn't there at all!! As I moved through lots of different genres (Rock, Jazz, Classical, Orchestral of various sizes from solo performances to huge orchestrations) I generally noticed the EV's let me hear more detail of all the parts. Whilst I liked this on a LOT of stuff I didn't like the tone of acoustic piano's through the EV's as much. They seemed to lack the midrange body. In terms of bass frequency response both speakers were very impressive considering their small lightweight size and low price tag! I certainly did not find them lacking in this area though I very much doubt either could come close to my Yamaha DXR15's! The EV's have a Club setting which pumps out a huge amount of bass at the expense of headroom before the limiter kicks in.

In terms of output, I could only really comfortably stand either speaker turned up to around a third of the way up on the channels of the desk. I was amazed at how loud both of these speakers went and how they managed to fill the hall with sound! If anything I thought the Alto's started to lose coherency and sounded a little boxy whilst the EV's still sounded as clear as they did at lower volumes.

 

After having spending a whole morning comparing both these speakers I would have to say I am truly amazed at how good both of these speakers sound for less than £500 per pair! I would not be disappointed to have to stick with the Alto's as they have been extremely reliable and I've had great comments on the sound I've got with these. However, now that the EV's cost the same price as the Alto's and with all the extra features of the plus better clarity I think the EV's would get my vote. I just wish the tone of pianos would sounded as nice as it does with the Alto's.

[nchangin]

Re ZLX: I purchased a pair in February mostly because of price but also some good reviews. I was not very happy listening to them with music and found them to high and shrilly, but that was indoors in my office so not a great test bed. I was able to use them in a large invironment with 100 people present at a NRA banquet/raffle/auction. I did put them in speech mode, plugged in a wireless for the MC and wired 58 for the auctioneer and was quite astounded, I had the results you stated, clear and loud projection. I was concerned running mics straight into the speakers as usually these type of events I will put just a little tiny bit of verb on vocals from the mixer and it was 100 % not needed at all. I was given compliments all night compared to other banquets in the same room they stated whoever had sound for those it was horrible and they could barely hear the peoples speaking. A lot of sound coming out of those little boxes indeed, very happy with their first time out, and thanks for sharing your experience vs the altos!