MACKIE ONYX 400F (audio interface)

[harryjames]

I will be purchasing one after New Years and will give it a test drive. I am a plug in gear, sit down and linear record kind of guy.

I have high expectations with the 400F and as well, I realize that there are adjustments that need to be made as digital compositions grow in tracks and plugins.

My plans are to use the 400F and Tracktion2 on my laptop which is 3.0gHz HT 800FSB, 512RAM (will max to 2gb in FEB 06) and will use external USB/firewire 7200rpm Seagate 300gb HDD 16mb cache, 8ms burst rate.

Shall report back during or after ONE recorded song. Don't take me long to know what works and what doesn't.

Still got my eye on AW2400 and prolly will end up buying that as well. Having both the outboard gear as well as the PC end can be a plus.

Again, thanks to every one. All of your information has been and continues to be USEFUL.

;;cheers;;

[ftngrave]

I've been reading this review for the last several days and it's difficult for me to know where to start. I am a songwriter, composer of currently mostly chamber music, and for over a year now have gotten more and more into electronic music. This last year I was able to study and work in a studio where there was always somebody available to address any technical difficulty I might have been having. Anyway, I am about to make a few various purchases to setup my own personal recording studio with my computer (which has pretty decent capability)-and reliability, and "for things to just work", is pretty important as I already have a future deadline for a project. So, my above interests were mentioned to show that I have discovered that I'm a bit of a unique consumer in that I have a plurality of things I want to perhaps achieve with an interface, an small example being I could want to record a string quartet as well as my band. My biggest concern with the Mackie Onyx 400F is its stand-alone mixing capability and the included software that routes I/O's, adjusts levels, ect. Mr. Anderton I believe stated, "It probably goes without saying, but this is obviously a stereo device…surround need not apply. I suppose if there was enough demand for surround capabilities, it would be possible to devise a mixer configuration that accepted up to eight DAW outs and fed them to the eight line outs. Call me wacky, call me crazy...but why do I think that few, if any, people reading this thread are going to complain about lack of surround capabilities?" I had almost ultimately decided on the Mackie right before I read this. I actually talked to Mackie on the phone a couple of days ago to specifically make sure all 8 outputs could be assigned for separate monitoring and they said that it could. I'm pretty sure also I got this quote from the mackie web site, "The 400F's eight individual outputs can be used for surround mixing, or for sending four discrete stereo headphone mixes to a headphone amp like one of our new HM Series (coming soon)." Perhaps only the simple included mixing software cannot do this, but it could obviously be done with most multitrack editors? Would Tracktion 2 allow one to configure the daw outs to more than stereo for example? Someone said elsewhere, "Also, I think it would be a good idea for the matrix mixer to allow the selection of which daw outputs get sent to a particular pair of outputs rather than having daw outs 1 & 2 hardwired to physicals outs 1 & 2, daw outs 3 & 4 hardwired to physical outs 3 & 4, etcetera." Are not the daw outputs whatever is assigned to channels 1 and 2, then 3 and 4, and so on? Couldn't different tracks be assigned to outputs 1 and 2, and then 3 and 4 for example for a four monitor setup that would each have different sounds coming out? Or do all output pairs have to have exactly the same stereo mix? If not, then the most recent quotation would just be an annoyance for the user to keep in mind as he went along what was assigned to the daw outputs. I dont' personally have 8 monitors, but would like to configure surround setups, what non-songwriters call spatialization, in performance spaces that do. Hopefully my question is somewhat clear and someone can help. To me, the Presonus Firepod seems quite affordable and reliable but it doesn't really operate as a standalone mixer, and surround routing would be a big plus for me (although I wouldn't do more than stereo without a computer). Or if I decide that i can wait until later purchases to record many simultaneous inputs or to have surround mixing/output, I might just go with the focusrite saffire with the assumption that perhaps I am looking for too many different capabilities with a firewire interface right now (the Mackie is the most expensive that I'm considering). As for the high whine problem, I'm going to be using a plug-in firewire card with a windows operating desktop for now, so I can only hope that I will not be one of the unlucky few. Mr. Anderton also said, "I tested several electronic synths, and was able to kick the meters into the -10dB range on peaks. That’s not really all that bad – you’re basically throwing away less than 2 bits of resolution..". Although the 4 line inputs it seems could have had more included gain, does this mean then that some old gear w/ only unbalanced support would at least provide a decent signal? Anyway, hope some of you can address my questions. I've really appreciated every one's insight as I've been silently following the review. Something no one's mentioned that I just thought of, I believe the included Tracktion 2 doesn't have a lot of plug-ins that comes when one buys it separately; Mackie's web site says it's missing Soundfont-1, M-Clav, M-Pad, ZR-3, AmpliTube LE, Sample Tank 2 SE, RM IV, Free Alpha, Slayer 2, Claw, Hexaline, DualDelay, NastyShaper, and Mabento.

[MikeRivers]

First, a request. When posting a long message like yours, please, please, please use the ENTER key on your keyboard to separate your text inot paragraphs. Yes, you have to hit it twice. It's really difficult to read this much text without giving the eyeballs a break now and then, and it's difficult to reply to it as well. Look at a book or newspaper if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Mr. Anderton I believe stated, "It probably goes without saying, but this is obviously a stereo device…surround need not apply. I suppose if there was enough demand for surround capabilities, it would be possible to devise a mixer configuration that accepted up to eight DAW outs and fed them to the eight line outs.

Understand that other than when you're recording in a good acoustical environment, using a surround mic setup such as a Soundfied microphone or a "tree" array (which would actually be a good idea for chamber music), surround mixing is completely artificial and arbitrary. That's one of the fun things about it. You can put any sound wherever you want it in the sound field. In stereo, we take all the recorded tracks (say 24) and assign them proportionally to two outputs, left and right. Those are sent to two speakers. When mixing for surround, you have the same 24 tracks, but you can assign them to any (or all) of six or eight or some other number of outputs. While you have just a one-dimentional (left-right) pan pot to adjust the proportion of the level sent to the two output channels for stereo, in surround, you have a two dimensional (let's not talk about height now) pan pot that can assign a track proportionally to four outputs (left front, right front, left rear, right rear) and perhaps also manage what goes to the center and LFE channels. This is all a job of the mixer.

The built-in mixer on the 400F isn't really designed for final mixdown, it's designed for monitoring while tracking, for which we usually use headphones in the studio. Usually when tracking, even if we intend to mix the final product in surround, we tend to monitor in stereo just because it's more convenient. So this is the "mixer" that Craig was addressing.

The 400F does indeed have eight outputs which can be fed from the DAW mixing program. If your DAW supports surrond mixing with two-dimensional panning, possibly phantom center derivation, and discrete center and LFE channel assignments, those can all be fed to the individual outputs of the 400F, which can be connected to your surround speakers. In a setup like that, you would probably want to connect your main L-R speakers to a pair of line outputs on the 400F rather than the dedicated control room outputs, and use an outboard device (a buch of those appeared on the market about 3 years ago) called a "surround controller" that lets you switch a set of speakers between stereo and surround, and gives you a single volume control that adjusts the level to all speakers simultaneously. Perhaps Mackie will offer one of these in the future.

It would be possible to build this capability into the 400F, of course. Since its mixing is all done with DSP, it might even be possible to do this as an upgrade - Mackie did such an upgrade (sort of) to the d8b digital console when they came up with the Version 3 operating system, and expanded it a bit with Version 5. You had to use the bus outputs to feed the speakers rather than the control room outputs but you could send any channel to any speaker or combination of speakers.

So what you're thinking about might be possible, but as Craig points out, most people who want to mix for surround will probalby not do it until they have the tracks recorded, and willl use the surround mixing tools in their DAW to create the mix, which they'll then send to the dedicated line outputs of the 400F. In this case, you want the 400F to just pass those outputs on to the speakers and not do anything else. One feature that would be pretty easy to add that might be helpful is to switch the Control Room Volume control to a surround mode where rather than act on the pre-assigned L/R control room outputs, it acts on all of the line outputs simultaneously. But that's about as far as I can see the 400F go for surround support.

I actually talked to Mackie on the phone a couple of days ago to specifically make sure all 8 outputs could be assigned for separate monitoring and they said that it could. I'm pretty sure also I got this quote from the mackie web site, "The 400F's eight individual outputs can be used for surround mixing, or for sending four discrete stereo headphone mixes to a headphone amp like one of our new HM Series (coming soon)."

That's all correct. What you didn't ask (and what they didn't tell you) was how you could control that surround mix.

Perhaps only the simple included mixing software cannot do this, but it could obviously be done with most multitrack editors? Would Tracktion 2 allow one to configure the daw outs to more than stereo for example?

Yes, you can assign tracks any output devices that you have available in Tracktion, and in just about every other DAW.

Someone said elsewhere, "Also, I think it would be a good idea for the matrix mixer to allow the selection of which daw outputs get sent to a particular pair of outputs rather than having daw outs 1 & 2 hardwired to physicals outs 1 & 2, daw outs 3 & 4 hardwired to physical outs 3 & 4, etcetera."

Lots of things would be nice, but a manufacturer has to consider who's going to be using what capability and stop adding features when most of the users are satisfied with the feature set. Otherwise the product would cost too much for just about everyone.

Are not the daw outputs whatever is assigned to channels 1 and 2, then 3 and 4, and so on? Couldn't different tracks be assigned to outputs 1 and 2, and then 3 and 4 for example for a four monitor setup that would each have different sounds coming out? Or do all output pairs have to have exactly the same stereo mix?

Sure, you can do that. You can assign any track to any single output or pair of outputs (with a pan control to split the signal between them). For example, you could connecte 400F outputs 1-2 to your front left and right speakers, and any track that you assigned to outputs 1-2 could be panned between the left and right front speakers. Similarly, you could connect outputs 3-4 to the rear speakers, and any track assigned to outputs 3-4 could be panned between the two rear speakers.

If you wanted to position a sound somewhere in the middle of the square defined by the speakers, however, you'd need to be able to pan between outputs 1-3 and 2-4 to move it forward and backward, This means that instead of assigning a track to outputs 1-2 or 3-4, you'd have to be able to assign it to all four outputs and your pan control would have to work both in the left-right and front-back directions. This is something that would have to be done in your DAW mixer. I don't believe that Tracktion offers surround panning, but maybe it does. I don't use it enough to have discovered this if it's indeed present.

Then there's the center and LFE channels. Those are usuall discrete so those are just direct assignments from track to output with no panning. That's simple enough. So you could do some rudimentary surround mixing but not full sourround mixing.

Of course if you recorded with a microphone that had discrete outputs for all of the surround chanels, you'd just record its four or five outputs to individual tracks, assign each one to a separate 400F output, connect your speakers, and you have surround.

So, there's plenty of potential there. Levels and whines are things that are unique to your own setup and you'll have to sort those things out when you get there. But since you're not planning to start out doing surround recording, you have time to grow and learn. Unless you give up your own studio, this isn't the last purchase you'll make. It's quite possible that by the time you're ready to make the move to surround mixing you'll have outgrown the 400F anyway.

[doug osborne]

(please learn how to use your enter key to make some paragraphs - your post is really hard to read)

The 400F, as well as any six-or-more-channel audio interface, should work for surround. This is dependant on the software, where you route tracks to physical outputs. The interface's physical outputs are then connected to an appropriate speaker system.

AFAICT Traktion is not surround capable (although you could do a primative surround mix with its AUX sends), but SONAR, Samplitude, and Nuendo (among other PC-based programs) are surround capable.

[amplayer]

OK Mike. Unfortunately, now I'm convinced I need one. I just want to know where my HC discount is.

[DemoKing]

2 things...

First, why does it have 2 firewire jacks in the back?

Second... how about a few people let us know what firewire card you installed, where you got it and how much, and what problems or experiences you have had with it.
I need a card, but I cant find anything that says "TI chipset" and {censored} like that. Maybe you guys know some model numbers or something.

[DemoKing]

And a 3rd thing.... I have a midi trigger keyboard, and am digging up a box to covert triggers to midi. The 400F has one midi in. Whats the best route to go to to get both going without having to unhook one everytime I want to use the other? I know motu and M-audio make things like this, anyone have any experiences with em though?

[Anderton]

 

 

So you can daisy-chain multiple FireWire devices. I believe Dan mentioned an update that would allow using multiple 400Fs, having the extra jack would be ideal for that.

 

>

 

I bought mine in 2000 and I doubt it's even being made. It cost me $25-$30 IIRC and was made by Siig. I've seen cards at Best Buy and such that do mention the chip set on the packaging. Most of the external cards use the TI chip set. If you have doubts, contact the company or email customer service.

 

As to extra MIDI ports, you can use a MIDI merger, but it's probably easier and cheaper to install a separate MIDI interface (USB or card).

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by amplayer OK Mike. Unfortunately, now I'm convinced I need one. I just want to know where my HC discount is.

Hey, I want to know where my HC commission is.

[ftngrave]

Thanks a lot for the info Mike. I just want to clarify a few of the things you covered. It is now clear to me that the built in mixer is not meant for surround. To clarify, this is because it seems that any of all the recorded tracks you have on your DAW can EACH only be assigned and distributed to two outputs?

I understand that surround mixing would work if your DAW supported assigning a track to any number of outputs, plus pan control that supports more than one dimensional movement.

My other question concerns the onyx built in mixer or even the Tracktion 2 software that someone else says is not surround capable. In the somewhat near future, I am interested in say, 4 separate outputs where the music/sounds for the 4 tracks could bounce around the outputs as to where they were assigned, but not move smoothly as in panning in different directions. Although my question seems to maybe imply that even some panning might be possible. My question: with either the built in mixer or Tracktion 2, couldn't one duplicate certain tracks-let's say, a line of music ultimately mixed down within tracks 1 and 2 could be duplicated to be ultimately mixed down within tracks 3 and 4-thus this duplication within assigning tracks in the DAW would get around only being able to apply certain tracks to only 2 outputs?

If, like the above example, I only wanted to have 4 separate outputs with any of my tracks assigned to each, and I also only wanted to be able to change where each of the 4 mixed down tracks appeared out of the 4 monitors while the music progressed over time, then couldn't I achieve this by duplicating tracks and assigning them to other tracks?

I hope this is clear. My implication with these questions is that one could have multiple outputs without surround capability within the DAW, given that one didn't wantt to do surround panning.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by ftngrave It is now clear to me that the built in mixer is not meant for surround. To clarify, this is because it seems that any of all the recorded tracks you have on your DAW can EACH only be assigned and distributed to two outputs?

I'm really beyond what I can tell you for sure here as I don't have a 400F. But looking at the block diagram and the manual, this seems to be my conclusion, and the conclusion of others who have had their hands on the unit. There are two sets of outputs from the DSP block. One is a set of 8 outputs going to an 8-channel D/A converter which feeds the line outputs 1-8. The other is a pair of outputs going to a two-channel D/A converter that feeds the control room and headphone outputs.

From what I can tell from the single screen shot of the Mixer control panel (pg. 26) there are only DAW Outputs 1-2, over at the right-hand end of the mixer. If you click on the OUTPUTS 3-4 tab, do you see DAW Outputs 3-4 in that mixer position, or do you still see DAW Outputs 1-2? I suspect that it's just 1-2 - in orther words, you can make a mix to each of the four output pairs that consists of DAW Outputs 1-2 (a stereo mix that you make "in the box") and some combination of inputs.



If indeed there are more than DAW Outputs 1-2 available then you could use those other outputs to generate other pairs in your surround mix. I don't think they're there, but if they were, then surround mixing would be more obvious and better publicized.

I'm sorry but I cannot answer the rest of your questions without actually playing with the unit. You'll have to find someone who has one and can try what you're looking to do.

Do you have a local dealer who can set up a demo for you? Perhaps that would be a good way to learn what you want to know. And maybe the dealer would know something. You could try calling Mackie, ask for "Pre-Sales Support." Tell them where you live and ask where you can go to get a good demo. Maybe a rep will bring one to your house.

[amplayer]

Originally posted by MikeRivers I'm really beyond what I can tell you for sure here as I don't have a 400F. But looking at the block diagram and the manual, this seems to be my conclusion, and the conclusion of others who have had their hands on the unit. There are two sets of outputs from the DSP block. One is a set of 8 outputs going to an 8-channel D/A converter which feeds the line outputs 1-8. The other is a pair of outputs going to a two-channel D/A converter that feeds the control room and headphone outputs. From what I can tell from the single screen shot of the Mixer control panel (pg. 26) there are only DAW Outputs 1-2, over at the right-hand end of the mixer. If you click on the OUTPUTS 3-4 tab, do you see DAW Outputs 3-4 in that mixer position, or do you still see DAW Outputs 1-2? I suspect that it's just 1-2 - in orther words, you can make a mix to each of the four output pairs that consists of DAW Outputs 1-2 (a stereo mix that you make "in the box") and some combination of inputs. If indeed there are more than DAW Outputs 1-2 available then you could use those other outputs to generate other pairs in your surround mix. I don't think they're there, but if they were, then surround mixing would be more obvious and better publicized. I'm sorry but I cannot answer the rest of your questions without actually playing with the unit. You'll have to find someone who has one and can try what you're looking to do. Do you have a local dealer who can set up a demo for you? Perhaps that would be a good way to learn what you want to know. And maybe the dealer would know something. You could try calling Mackie, ask for "Pre-Sales Support." Tell them where you live and ask where you can go to get a good demo. Maybe a rep will bring one to your house.

I thought you worked for Mackie. Can't you get one?

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by amplayer I thought you worked for Mackie. Can't you get one?

I did work there as a contractor for six months about five years ago. I occasionaly do a documentation job for them now and then, but no, I don't work for them. About all they do for me now is send me a Christmas card.

I supppose that if I wanted to play with a 400F they'd lend me one, but since I don't really need it and if I had it, I'd just be better informed when it comes to posting on forums. That sounds too much like work.

[Anderton]

>

You indeed see 3-4...if you click Outputs 5/6 you see DAW outputs 5-6, etc.

You could indeed use the interface for surround, as there are enough outs and such. But there is no surround-oriented control (e.g., surround panning, Sub controls, etc). That would all need to be in what's feeding the 400F, as well as what follows it.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton You indeed see 3-4...if you click Outputs 5/6 you see DAW outputs 5-6, etc. You could indeed use the interface for surround, as there are enough outs and such. But there is no surround-oriented control (e.g., surround panning, Sub controls, etc). That would all need to be in what's feeding the 400F, as well as what follows it.

Thanks for checking. I figured somebody out there could look at that screen. So if you have a DAW program (not Tracktion) that offers surround panning, you could assign outputs 1-4 to the four corner speakers, 5 to the center, 6 to LFE and set all the 400F playback output levels equal (or whatever it takes to balance the speakers).

If you want bass management as well as (or in addition to) a discrete LFE channel, that would need to be external, but there are a number of subwoofers that have inputs (and high-passed filtered outputs) for the surround channels and send the bass to the sub.

So what's the big worry? Sure you can do surround mixing through the 400F (just not with it).

Sequoia has a surround panning mode. What else out there that a 400F owner could afford can do surround panning? Samplitude, maybe? Some flavor of Cubase?

But . . . (there's always a but) the 400F mixer lets you create a mix of the 8 inputs plus DAW outputs 1-2 on outputs 1-2, and a mix of the 8 inputs plus DAW outputs 3-4 on outputs 3-4, etc. So let's say you have some backing tracks and now want to overdub two singers in the same pass. Each singer wants to hear the backing tracks and somehow they manage to agree that the engineer's mix is good enough for both of them. But each one wants to hear himself louder than the other singer in his headphones.

So you connect outputs 1-2 to Don's headphone amplifier, turn up DAW 1-2 and the two singers' mics. Crank Don's mic input up a few notches and he's happy.

Now, you want to send outputs 3-4 to Phil's headphones. So you select Output 3-4, Crank up Phil's mic input a bit higher than Don's and then scratch your head. You see faders for DAW outputs 3-4, but your backing tracks are assigned to outputs 1-2 and you've already got that mix happening in the DAW. So how do Phil and Don get the same mix of backing tracks when only one of them has the faders for those tracks on his "headphone mixer?"

You'd have to assign the DAW tracks to both outputs 1-2 and 3-4 and I'm not sure you can do that on most DAWs (at least not without going into a surround mode). I suppose you could bounce your mix to a pair of tracks or a stereo track, make a copy of that mix, un-assign the outputs from all the raw tracks and assign one mix to outputs 1-2 and the other mix to outputs 3-4.

Whew! Am I missing something simple?

[ftngrave]

I appreciate all the feedback. With the Onyx interface, of course with a DAW program that supports surround, you could have surround.

For my example, which would be to use outputs 1, 2, 3, and 4 to have ANY or ALL recorded tracks (voiding surround oriented panning or control)-even on DAW software that doesn't support surround, it seems to be possible. And the following examples of assigning what occurs on each of the 4 outputs over time would allow one to have different individual tracks "bounce around the outputs..but not move smoothly as in panning in different directions."

For 1-2 and 3-4 to have exclusively different tracks, each track would simply be assigned to one of the two output pairs (which we now acknowledged was possible with the interface routing); for 1 to have an exclusive track that's not heard on 2, one would simply pan all the way to 1. For 1-2 and 3-4 to have the same tracks, I would assume you could duplicate the track on your DAW software, and assign one of them to the 1-2 output and its clone or duplication to the 3-4 output.

This configuration to have two separate output pairs with one track is similar to your example of two separate output pairs with one stereo mix-"I suppose you could bounce your mix to a pair of tracks or a stereo track, make a copy of that mix, un-assign the outputs from all the raw tracks and assign one mix to outputs 1-2 and the other mix to outputs 3-4." Thus my thinking is that most simple DAW multitrack software could use the routing of the Onyx's included mixing software to do this.

I hope this overall example makes sense, and if you, Mike (or anyone else), are still with patience, please comment on it.

[composer]

Confused, read about from 6 on...

If I have SX 3, which supports surround will it do surround or not?

Thanks!

[DemoKing]

Regarding the needing-more-midi ports problem I have... my drum module has a midi in, out, and thru... can I plug the out from the module into the 400F, and plug my keyboard into the thru and not have to screw around with changing plus every time? If so, that rocks. I'm assuming thru just passes signal on, I'm not very knowledgable on midi implementations....

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by composer If I have SX 3, which supports surround will it do surround or not?

I dunno. What does the Cubase manual tell you about hardware requirements for mixing in surround? If it will let you assign a track to four or more outputs and it has at least a two-axis pan pot for the track, then, yes, you can use the 400F with it.

 

And what do you mean by "do surround?"

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by DemoKing Regarding the needing-more-midi ports problem I have... my drum module has a midi in, out, and thru... can I plug the out from the module into the 400F, and plug my keyboard into the thru and not have to screw around with changing plus every time?

I don't follow what you said, but I don't think so. MIDI THRU is a copy of whatever goes in to the MIDI IN.

 

If you have MIDI data on the computer for both the drums and keyboard, you could connect MIDI OUT of the 400F to MIDI IN on your drum module, then MIDI THRU from the drum module to MIDI IN of the synth. If you connect the MIDI OUT of the keyboard to MIDI IN on the 400F, then you can enter MIDI data into the computer via the keyboard.

[ftngrave]

Mike, does my last post simply not make sense? Or do you just not know of any information that would be helpful to do what I am describing?

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by ftngrave Mike, does my last post simply not make sense? Or do you just not know of any information that would be helpful to do what I am describing?

Sorry, but I couldn't figure out what you were asking, or describing.

 

What is it that you would like to do?

[amplayer]

Anyone know pricing and availability of the Mackie 1200F?

[DemoKing]

My 400F is offically on the way now. I need to order a firewire card, anyone have suggestions?

Locally, there is a shop here that will order anything you want and put it on a rent-to-own plan for 1 year. You can get Bogner amps, just about anything. Makes it nice when you cant afford something outright. Also makes it hard to resist buying things. I could have taken the 400F home for $150 if I wanted to.

Time to order my Brent Averill 312a now

Paul

[harryjames]

Originally posted by Anderton >

 

 

FYI I know that CompUSA also sells a PCMCIA 6pin firewire for laptops. The card can be powered by the buss and also by A/C power and is also made by SIIG.

 

Until my 400F arrives and I use it with MY lappy I wont have anything to report.

 

;;cheers;;