MACKIE ONYX 400F (audio interface)

[dernil]

As a member of the 400f engineering team, I'd like to offer the following observations on the D/A "sound".

The 400f has phase-accurate output across the entire spectrum. This is something that we, along with some of the converter companies, have been spearheading. Not to get too technical, but the D/A converters used in the 400f use FIR filters, which provide constant phase regardless of frequency. Some converter designs use IIR filters, which are faster and cheaper to implement, but induce phase shifts depending on frequency. It can be possible to compensate for these phase shifts in DSP, however this adds latency.

This frequency dependent phase shift results (to our ears at least) in "fuzzy" sounds. Many people have become accustomed to fuzzy sound, and are surprised when they hear phase-aligned response, as it sounds brighter. Our opinion is that the D/A converter should reflect "truth", not a preferred sound. What good is mastering on sweet-sounding D/As when your mix won't translate to the masses?

[tadpole]

Dernil,

Thanks for the info!

tadpole

[Rodney Gene]

Originally posted by dernil As a member of the 400f engineering team, I'd like to offer the following observations on the D/A "sound". The 400f has phase-accurate output across the entire spectrum. This is something that we, along with some of the converter companies, have been spearheading. Not to get too technical, but the D/A converters used in the 400f use FIR filters, which provide constant phase regardless of frequency. Some converter designs use IIR filters, which are faster and cheaper to implement, but induce phase shifts depending on frequency. It can be possible to compensate for these phase shifts in DSP, however this adds latency. This frequency dependent phase shift results (to our ears at least) in "fuzzy" sounds. Many people have become accustomed to fuzzy sound, and are surprised when they hear phase-aligned response, as it sounds brighter. Our opinion is that the D/A converter should reflect "truth", not a preferred sound. What good is mastering on sweet-sounding D/As when your mix won't translate to the masses?

 

 

What good is 'phase-aligned' response when it it sounds worse?

With all due respect to Mackie...the D/A in the 400f ripped my ears apart in the top end.

 

It may be more 'accurate' in specs, but it is hard to use in the real world for some of us.

 

The reference material I used was all old standby discs that I have been using for years as references...Fleetwood Macs Rumours, Lyle Lovetts Joshua Judges Ruth and AC/DC Back in Black.

 

All of them were 'abnormally' bright and actually peircing on some.

Now I certainly believe your intent is right...but 'translating to the masses' is nonsense here. These D/A converters are just too bright period.

[dernil]

Please provide me the reference you are using to determine brightness (other hardware being tested against), including monitors being used and your 400f serial number. I would like to take this offline to address your issues.

Thanks!

dernil

[blue2blue]

Originally posted by Anderton Quick update: Sorry about the delay between posts. As some of you know I moved not too long ago, and I could only find a couple of my mics for testing!! So I'm frantically searching through boxes. ...

 

 

Okay.

 

Now this is why we need Craig to do these reviews with a video podcast component.

[Pleasant]

Uh, Oh....Rodney Gene has arrived, and he's bringing his GearSlutz post with him!


Hi Rodney, your review preceeds you on this forum. Your opinion is somewhat infamous here.

- Jim

[tadpole]

Rodney Gene,

I have to say that you have brought some real drama with you as well!

I'm just picturing a guy with no ears listening to Stevie Nicks and cursing the onyx 400f. Drama.

Tadpole

[slingerland1936]

The 400f does sound a little bright on output, but it is still a nice box, I used a Imac g5 2.1ghz and used itunes to listen to about 2000 songs through Dynaudio BM5A's, as well as Tracktion2 sessions, the monitors are really accurate and sound awesome with even crap playing through them, I A/B'd the 400F with my other rig (digi 002 rack) and it was close sounding with the 400F being a tad bit more on the crispy side, so I still like the onyx 400F it works fine. I had a big knob but that thing seem to add some high end color as well, My HR824's had to be sold because they were destroying the high end in my ears and everyone else's, even with muddy 40's big band music!
maybe everyone at Mackie cranks their music so loud that they all lost the high end in their hearing.

[spectacular g]

well...

Drama is drama and opinions are like... well you know, we all got em' and were all entitled to them.

Anyway, I took the time to hear this box for myself tonight at the local GC. Listened for a good while to music that I wrote, recorded and mixed. Played back through the same monitors I own.

Not really scientific, but as good as I could do in a pinch.

Sooo...

It sounded different for sure, but not at all in a bad way.

I would say that the sound reminds me of when I really do a good jod of cleaning the windows on my car. You know just squeaky clean and clear almost disorienting at first, but after a bit you get used to it and soon you see everything clearer which is very cool!!!

What I did not hear was overly "bright" or anything close to "grainy" nor did I hear "warm" or "fat". I just heard a really good and REALLY CLEAN and CLEAR portrayal of some music I know well.

I liked it alot, enough in fact that I will have one here tomorow.

Now if Dan can just crack the whip a bit and get those update/upgrades done life will be really good.

Hope this helps.

next time,
jfg

[Anderton]

 

What I did not hear was overly "bright" or anything close to "grainy" nor did I hear "warm" or "fat". I just heard a really good and REALLY CLEAN and CLEAR portrayal of some music I know well.>>

 

Same here. It's interesting that a lot of you are experiencing the same sort of sound I'm perceiving. The linear phase aspect certainly is helpful to know about, as I think it does explain some of the "transparency" I'm hearing (and apparently, others are too).

 

As to Rodney Gene's post, he hears what he hears and that should be respected, period. However, given that most people who've auditioned the 400F are hearing what I'm hearing, and he's hearing something else, I think it's a great idea that Mackie will investigate further. I would not at all rule out the possibility that he may have a unit with a defect, or have run into some failure mechanism which would be of tremendous value for Mackie to know about.

 

Maybe we'll have a repeat of what happened with the Sonar 5 Pro Review, where a bug was found and fixed, all within the space of the review.

 

And I'd like to thank all of you again for your participation, and also, props to Mackie for getting involved in something where the outcome is anything but predetermined. But that's what makes it interesting, eh?

[cochese]

I had the Onyx400F for about a week and used it for a project i was producing to lay down guitar tracks. My gear is an Imac G5 2 mghz 1 gig ram running Tiger, Cubase SL3 Mackie 1202VLZPro, Great River ME1NV, Empiriacal Labs Distressor, Royer M121 Ribbon Mic and Shure SM57.

The Onyx worked well for the most part for about a week when I noticed a high pitched noise coming from the control roon output. It seemed to go away if the control was turned full up and got louder when it was turned down and louder still when the phantom power was turned on. This noise was not present at the main outputs. I must also add that I saw on Mackie's forum that someone else had this same noise in their unit. The headphone outputs were very week when monitoring input signal but worked fine for the DAW output stage. I also could only get the signal panned hard right or left when monitoring any of the inputs.

When I called Mackie (which is no easy task) they tried to tell me it was my recording program. I then explained that the unit was doing this when used by itself. at that point he said "oh, I guess you had better return it."

This seems to be a common response with these sort of things. I'll call Apple and they'll say to contact Cubase. Mackie says to call Apple and round it goes.

Anyway when the unit was working properly it worked well. The line outputs had plenty of headroom and the mic pres sounded clean and even worked with my Royer Ribbon mic although in a side by side test the Great River gave the Royer a more detailed sound and more bottom end. Of course the Great River was designed with the Royer in mind.

As for the AD converters I thought they sounded fine through my Event TR8 powered monitors. When I took the tracks I recorded to a bigger studio they sounded even better through their Mackie powered monitors.

Perhaps my unit was just a lemon but at this point I lost confidence in the 400F and replaced it with the Motu 828MarkII which has a longer track record. So far the Motu seems to be working great.

In closing I just wanted to say I have owned three Mackie mixers over the years and they have all worked really well. So I'm not trying to cast any doubts on Mackie's quality but felt people should be aware of a potential problem.

[Anderton]

This has the vibe of a power supply problem to me...something works at first, fails, and affects all aspects of a unit.

[moonz]

Nice indepth review, Anderton...damz..it has taken me a good hour to get through this entire thread!

I'm a Mackie fan, and I thought the 400F looked tempting when I first read the poop sheet on it.

I wonder how the availability is now? I noticed there were a lot of complaints over on Mackie's forum about that. People couldn't find any vendors that actually had any 400fs in stock.

Also...it would be nice to know who makes the 400F's converters, and what the product numbers of those are. If they are using converters made by AKM, for instance, you could look up the chip specs for their products right on the AKM website...if RME has no problem listing what converters their products use I don't see why other companies can't do the same.

respectfully,

-moonz-

[Pleasant]

Originally posted by moonz Also...it would be nice to know who makes the 400F's converters, and what the product numbers of those are. If they are using converters made by AKM, for instance, you could look up the chip specs for their products right on the AKM website...if RME has no problem listing what converters their products use I don't see why other companies can't do the same.

 

 

Mackie not only tells you the converters, they brag about them:

 

http://www.mackie.com/products/400f/index.html

 

The chips are the AK5385 and AK4358. The AK5385 is the same AD chip used in the RME ADI-x series. The AL4358 is not the same DA chip that RME uses.

 

On a slightly different note, I'd like to add that I think it's stellar that the 4 line inputs on the 400f go straight to the AD converters....no gain stage, etc in the way. That'll allow me to use my outboard gear (read: preamps) w/o stuff getting in the way.

 

- Jim

[moonz]

aha...the copy on the page you point out has been somewhat embellished since I visited there last.

And...I happily stand corrected.

[Moore]

On the topic of WDM drivers.

One issue with my current firewire interface is that when I play, say, a MP3 through the WDM interface, it resets to 44Khz and has to be reset back manually.

This is really just a minor annoyance for me since I am driving it from external sync and when this happens the sync light flashes, but in other situations it could be more serious and result in loss of a recording.

Of course one should mute the Windows audio to prevent this, but accidents happen. I wonder if the Onyx has a better way of handling this. It would be nice if sample rate conversion happened automatically (best) or else the sampling rate got reset afterwards. (Still problematic if it happens in mid recording)

[mlockett]

I can't seem to find any specs on the AD conversion. I see what the chip is; I see spec's for AD + Mic preamp; but not for just the AD.

On the Mackie site they say -3dB for 10hz to 24khz. -3dB is a pretty substantial drop, though where it is specifically, is an issue; I don't care so much about what's happening above 18khz or below 50hz.

Has anyone tested with RightMark Audio Analyzer (or similar); it's free at http://audio.rightmark.org.

[BradSolo]

Craig, and everyone else,

Just thought that I'd state this in case some users don't know.

Windows XP Service Pack 2 has a bug that slows Firewire (IEEE1394) devices to 100Mbps

Here is Microsoft's fix for it

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/885222

Download the fix and check your Windows Registry.

AWESOME review and topic!

[Anderton]

 

Has anyone tested with RightMark Audio Analyzer (or similar); it's free at http://audio.rightmark.org.

 

I downloaded it, but couldn't get it to open either the Mackie or Creaware cards...guess I don't know the program well enough.

 

So I did a quick and dirty test: I loaded a 20Hz - 20kHz test tone into Wavelab, and sent it out the Creamware SCOPE card analog out to the 400F analog in (I checked both the mic pre and the instrument input, but there was so little difference the attached picture just shows the mic pre). I then booted up Sonar and recorded the Mackie digital out. Obviously, this is a far from a rigorous test because the Creamware analog output is there mostly for monitoring (the analog circuitry is on the card so it's not even in a breakout box; I use the card for its digital I/O), and I didn't record off the 400F analog out because then I would have had to come in through the SCOPE analog in, which would have added another variable. Also I was running the whole shebang at 44.1kHz.

 

Still, I think this is useful because analog-wise, at least the 400F input/preamp combo is being tested, and that's the harder part to get right compared to the AD. Check out the attachment, and you'll see that the response is ruler flat at the low end. There's a very slight rolloff at 20kHz (a little over a dB) but I assume the SCOPE card is rolling things off a bit anyway due to operating at 44.1kHz.

 

However, let's assume the SCOPE card is perfectly flat out to 20kHz. Even in that extreme case, the 400F is down only fractionally at the very highest frequencies.

 

Bottom line: Even at 44.1kHz, and even taking the variables into account, it's pretty clear the 400F response is pretty close to ideal, and depending on how flawed my test setup was, may actually be ideal.

 

I'm sure someone from Mackie has test graphs, yes? If you email them to me, I can adpat them size- and format-wise for posting and post them here.

[Rodney Gene]

Originally posted by tadpole Rodney Gene, I have to say that you have brought some real drama with you as well! I'm just picturing a guy with no ears listening to Stevie Nicks and cursing the onyx 400f. Drama. Tadpole

Drama? Because of an opinion?

Geez Tadpole...I sure hope you have a more complex existence than that...honestly. Your opinion of my perpsective means nothing to me. One of the realities about audio and gear is that we do all hear things differently.

If you feel offended because I don't like the same $600 piece of gear as you, you may reconsider a different career... either way don't let it get you down.

You may not like Fleetwood Mac but again...so what?
The reason I bring up the album is because it is a known album that is superbly mixed..not overly bright or harsh.

Uh, Oh....Rodney Gene has arrived, and he's bringing his GearSlutz post with him! Hi Rodney, your review preceeds you on this forum. Your opinion is somewhat infamous here.

Actually it isn;t my 'gearslutz' post, it is simply 'my' opinion. I have been a member of this forum for 5 years and a member of the original MP forums for 6 years.

As sad as I find it that my 'opinion' of a piece of gear is 'famous'...I hope my ENTIRE opinion is famous...not just the part you deem ...'dramatic'

Either way...it was good test for me having the ONYX here and finding it bright as hell. Luckily I was able to A/B on the spot. That was a big difference. It led me to buy the DAC-1 in the end..which means I may sell my RME Fireface and use the 400F and the DAC-1...which is what I have been encouraging from the beginning.

It may be time some folks found a bit thicker skin...


Respect

[Rodney Gene]

( Orignally posted by Ticohans Nov 19th 2005 ) Rodney, correct me if I'm wrong, but you felt that if the D/A on the 400F had been better, it would be more desirable than the FF800 (better A/D, better pre's, better interface, etc). And yes that is just your OWN SUBJECTIVE opinion on the matter.

Response posted by Rodney Gene, November 19th 2005

Yes...I would...for my own needs prefer an outboard DAC and the 400F. But mostly because I don't need ADAT I/O and I would like 2 FW400 ports.
Otherwise...Better? Worse? Who can say...niether setup will get in your way of making excellent recordings.

Plus...(and this is huge)...The RME is stable and proven. I personally put alot of stock into that..cause all I want when all is said and done is for my gear to fire-up and work. The Mackie drivers and support is new...I may give it a bit longer before I dump all of my options.


Wow...that is pretty heavy stuff there... Goodness gracious...

Best of life to all of you...

[mlockett]

Thanks Craig,

This looks good as far as I can tell, but I'm not clear on what I'm seeing in the picture. The Y axis is the dB (obviously); the X axis, I would expect to be the frequency, but the measurements are 0, 2c, 4c, ...10c. Do you know how these translate to frequencies measured in hz?

[mandoman]

My 400f arrived. Here's my experience so far.

No Mac software on the disc!!! What the #$%^??? OK, reading through the Mackie forums, looks like there was a production issue with the disc. OK, guess I've got to download the control software from their website. This would really suck for any mac user on dialup...

OK, so I load the software, than proceed to hook up the 400f to my g4 laptop. Power cable, firewire cable, and some Event powered monitors. First thing I notice is a HIGH PITCHED SOUND coming from my computer near the firewire connection. Dang, what's that sound? Seems to go in and out depending on whether the CPU/Disc is running or idling. OK, maybe something isn't set right?

I tried different firewire cables, different more grounded and isolated conditioned ac power, different sample rates in the control software, and checked Audio Midi Setup. Same problem. I don't get this sound with any other firewire device (ipod, several firewire HDD's, 1640/onyx, motu 828), so I really doubt it's my computer's firewire connection.

Anyway, things seemed to playback ok in Digital Performer and iTunes and the whine does not appear to bleed into my monitors, but I'll need to do more test to be sure of that.

All's I can say is it's not looking good for Mackie on this one. I can't possibly track in the same room as the computer with that high pitched whine. Unless I know forsure I can get a unit that does not have this issue or hear this is a known issue and a fix is in the works, this is going back for a Traveler or maybe even a Firepod, Fireface, or Metric Halo box.

All's I can say is, I'd wait it out on this one several months until Mackie irons out these early production issues...

Sincerely,
Dissapointed

[Pleasant]

Rodney,

You gotta relax, man.

Both Tadpole and I were being light hearted.

I think the image of you sitting back listening to Stevie Nicks with your ears blown-off by the 400f DA IS pretty funny. That's all he meant.

I read, enjoyed, and took seriously as did many here, your review of the 400f. It has been cited many times in this thread. That's why I, jokingly, referred to it as "infamous".

We're all very impressed with your tenure on this and other forums.

- P

[KernelG]

No Mac software on the disc!!! What the #$%^??? OK, reading through the Mackie forums, looks like there was a production issue with the disc. OK, guess I've got to download the control software from their website. This would really suck for any mac user on dialup...

 

 

Yeah, it would. You only really need the control panel, which is not bad @ 1.3 MB. Downloading the 32 MB Tracktion and plug-in bundle would take a while. With broadband, they were a minor annoyance (mostly the time it took to figure what to get and where), though I would have checked for new versions anyway.

 

 

OK, so I load the software, than proceed to hook up the 400f to my g4 laptop. Power cable, firewire cable, and some Event powered monitors. First thing I notice is a HIGH PITCHED SOUND coming from my computer near the firewire connection. ... Unless I know forsure I can get a unit that does not have this issue or hear this is a known issue and a fix is in the works, this is going back for a Traveler or maybe even a Firepod, Fireface, or Metric Halo box.

 

 

I have seen this issue reported on PowerBooks with PreSonus devices as well. Not sure what it is, but just so you know.