Yamaha CP50 Stage Piano - Now with Conclusions

[fitztracks]

Hi - just unpacked my CP50. Tried to create a split without studying up - yikes - couldn't do it - and I've been keyboarding for decades. Anyway... If it can only split/layer 2 voices and there is no Acoustic Bass/Ride Cymbal voice - how can there be a bass/ride left hand split? Is it gone from this model??? If so, back in the box it goes. Hard to believe. Anyone figure this out yet?

Patrick

[SingMeToSleep]

I have the CP50, and the CFIIIS piano is UHMAZING. And, it's funny too - because, about a week into owning it - I was basically positive that I was returning it... it took some getting use to - and I've heard that from other users as well, so if you do decide to pick it, and it doesn't meet your expectations right away, keep tinkering with it, and read the reference manual - it shows you where everything is... it's an incredible instrument.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by fitztracks

Hi - just unpacked my CP50. Tried to create a split without studying up - yikes - couldn't do it - and I've been keyboarding for decades. Anyway... If it can only split/layer 2 voices and there is no Acoustic Bass/Ride Cymbal voice - how can there be a bass/ride left hand split? Is it gone from this model??? If so, back in the box it goes. Hard to believe. Anyone figure this out yet?

Patrick

The CP50 only does two split/layers. The CP5 does four.

There is a performance with acoustic bass on the left and piano on the right. As I'm about to get into the whole performance thing more, I'll check about the option of putting a drum kit in the right split so you can get a ride.

I assume that what you want is simply acoustic bass in the left split and a ride cymbal in the right, yes?

BTW as someone who's played synths for years, the CP50 does take some getting used to. They're serious about the "plug and play," stage piano aspect where you're going to be using mostly presets, or creating them in advance of the gig. But, we'll be finding out more about this soon

[fitztracks]

If anyone has created a bass/ride piano split on the CP50 - let me know. This has been a feature of Yamaha digital pianos for more than a decade (other manufacturers too). I use it often for accompanying a vocalist and creating a trio sound. Just upgraded from my P80 - but may roll back to a CP33 or no upgrade at all if this bass/ride split can't be created with a CP50. I wonder if it can even be done with a CP5? It would take a ride patch or a bass/ride combined voice, which I don't see available. Unfortunate that the easy push a button or two splits and layers of the earlier CP's is not implemented on the new models. I'm ok with programming ahead of the gig - just didn't want to have to work this hard. Still don't know how to create a split - manual is no help. Back to the keyboard...

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by fitztracks

If anyone has created a bass/ride piano split on the CP50 - let me know. This has been a feature of Yamaha digital pianos for more than a decade (other manufacturers too). I use it often for accompanying a vocalist and creating a trio sound. Just upgraded from my P80 - but may roll back to a CP33 or no upgrade at all if this bass/ride split can't be created with a CP50. I wonder if it can even be done with a CP5? It would take a ride patch or a bass/ride combined voice, which I don't see available. Unfortunate that the easy push a button or two splits and layers of the earlier CP's is not implemented on the new models. I'm ok with programming ahead of the gig - just didn't want to have to work this hard. Still don't know how to create a split - manual is no help. Back to the keyboard...

Let's address the Split thing first, as that's pretty easy.

You can set the split point regardless of whether split is on or not. This assumes you have two voices in the performance so that there's actually something to split (if not, then the split point just sets a lower note limit for whatever voice is in the performance).

To set the split point, first hit the Common button (it lights). Then hit the Page > button, and the display's middle parameter shows "Point" (as in Split Point). You can set the split point in two ways:

* Spin the associated dial to select the note.
* Push on the dial and play the note where you want the split.

Now, just hit the Split button to enable or disable the split. You can do this at any time while you're playing.

About the bass and ride...no problem getting a bass sound for the left split, but after searching through all the available voices, I couldn't find a drum kit voice or drum sample to put in the right split, or to layer with the bass. I think I know the sound you mean - where triggering a bass note also triggers a ride cymbal. As far as I can tell, it's not possible to do this with a "stock" CP50. It appears you have two options:

* Use the CP50's MIDI out to trigger a separate sound module containing the ride sound, set to be triggered over the same range as the bass.
* Create a backing track that plays the ride sound, and play it in the background while you play bass on top of it.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think it's possible to play the sound the way you want to play it. Maybe some expert input from other CP50 users or Yamaha can let us know whether this is possible or not.

[fitztracks]

Thanks for the tutorial. I inadvertantly held down one of the voice buttons and got it to flash and bring me to the voice selection for the left and right parts. Without a bass/ride layered voice onboard, it is not possible to achieve this patch. Why would Yamaha drop this voice after putting it on every digital piano for so many years??? Someone screwed up. (Can't do it on any of the new CPs) I imagine the thinking was - we gave you a rhythm pattern player so we can eliminate the bass/ride voice. Even the other brands, such as Roland, have kept the bass/ride split on all their pianos. It's such a wonderful patch. Produces the illusion of a trio and there's no canned beat to adhere to. My CP50 has spent a few days out of the box. Sadly, back to ZZOUNDS it goes. Can't gig without this patch. It's built into too many pieces in my repertoire. My singer concurs. Too bad - I was looking forward to upgrading my P80 after all these years (personally haven't heard an improvement in any of the 3 layer yamaha DPs since the P80). Grrrr. Can't buy the Roland - way too synthetic and noisy.

Could kluge it together with an external drum machine or sound module and direct a controller zone to the ride patch. Thanks for that suggestion. It is a potential fix. I'll have to sleep on that before sending it off. Still can't believe it... I even test drove this thing several times - and was so convinced it would be there, I didn't think to check. Just let one of the jazz rhythm splits fool me. Bad Yamaha (says the loyal user).

[fitztracks]

Originally Posted by The Pope

Do you have any opinions as to the sound of the CP50 and the CP300? I have a CP300 and a P250 which I love, but they are back breakers. I have not found any of the other Yamaha pianos (P120, P90) however to be as expressive or sound near as good....so I'm still lugging around my CP300 and P250. Basically, if the CP50 sounds and feels as good, I would gladly get one. All the other sounds (and they sound very good in these demos) would just be gravy to me.

Funny how before electronic pianos that actually sounded like pianos came out, I wasn't so picky. I played what was available. Now my piano is much more personal. Like a guitar player, I have bonded...

This is quite awhile after your post, but for anyone just reading - I'm fortunate to live near several retailers and was able to play the CP50, CP5, CP1, FP4, FP7, SV1, RD300GX, RD700GX, Nord Electro 3 - just about everything but Kurzweil - before settling on a CP50. I purchased a Yamaha P80 new - many years ago - and without the benefit of A/B"ing" in a shop, found all the subsequent (P90, CP300/33, etc...) too bright, and although good, not enough of a substantial upgrade (to my ears) to warrant the upgrade. I actually confidently put my P80 on EBAY then went off to purchase a P90 and when I played it thought, what have I done? Jumped back on EBAY and it was too late - my P80 had sold. So I immediately purchased another one selling on EBAY and convinced the seller to send the instrument to my buyer - everyone was happy, including me - albeit out $100 in the deal.

The CPs are (in my opinion) the first Yamaha DPs worth upgrading to or starting with. The CFIII is a whole new animal. The 3 layer DPs (like my P80) will annoy you if you start listening to the split between p, mf, ff - Try Albeniz' classic Leyenda/Asturias - bring out the voices on the repeated notes and yikes - there it is. The new CPs show no split points. Although I think you lose a little in the quality of the sound of p and the bite of ff - there's no more obvious 3 layer characteristic.

I liked the Korg SV-1 - but too specialized for my use. Owned a Roland RD500 years ago - but switched to Yamaha and never went back. Roland's probably cut better in a band - Yamaha's sound more like a piano to me. I didn't get to try the Clavia Nord Piano - but from the sound of an Electro - I bet it's quite nice - just $3k - which is twice my budget at the moment.

If you can live without the bass/ride and piano split voice that is on most DPs these days - I think the CP50 or 5 is the way to go - although I'd put my hands on a Nord Piano if I were considering the CP5.

Good luck to all digital piano shoppers out there. From this piano player of 30 years - CP50 - or for a different keyboard feel - CP5 - are excellent choices. Yamaha still produces the best DP - to my ears. I also have a 1975 6' Kawai KG2C Grand upgraded with Abel hammers. Nothing like the real thing....

[Anderton]

Thanks very much for your insights, Fitztracks. People like you are what make pro reviews special...and I think your points are very valid, and are obviously informed by considerable experience

Thanks again.

[fitztracks]

(SOLVED THIS - Using an Alesis SR16 midi'd to the piano) Thank you Anderton for the fabulous and obvious suggestion of midi"ing" up a drum machine to my CP50 to recreate the bass/ride left hand split I've been accustomed to on my P80. I haven't done it yet, but the more I think about it - what a fantastic idea! Now I will actually have separate patch/tone/volume control over the ride cymbal layered with the bass. At my last gig it was hard to bring out the ride without over-increasing the high eq on the entire instrument. Now I'll have the ride on it's own mixer channel. I'm thinking an old-steady Alesis SR16 should do the job nicely, and even give me some rhythms to play around with (I always liked their A/B patterns with variations and fills by footswitch - very practical).

 

OK - more feedback for the person thinking about a CP50. I'm am sitting here at my computer between a Yamaha CP50 and a Yamaha P80, monitoring with a pair of Genelec's. Lucky me. What an interesting study. Most importantly - the piano: There is definitely a difference, but more like two different instruments rather than good/bad, better or worse. Suprisingly. I thought there would be a big leap from the P80 to the CP50 - considering I bought my P80 around 12 years ago (what an incredibly solid and lasting instrument!). Differences (Note - you could probably generally substitute P90, P120, CP250, CP300/33 and other recent pro Yamaha models for the P80 - as they share a similar three layer sample and design) :

 

P80 has much more bite than a CP50 when you strike hard. Conversely, CP50 is mellower and sounds like a more refined grand piano, particularly when played softly. (Additional comment - the CFIII sample gives "me" the impression of a larger grand piano than the earlier CP and P(x) models)

 

CP50 - smooth transition from p to ff. P80 jumps from one sample layer to the next - audibly.

 

Decay - there is wayyyy more going on in the decay of a P80 sample than the CP50 CFIII sample. Like - crazy better. The CFIII quickly arrives at a sustained (non-changing) tone that simply fades with an envelope. The much older P80 actually has a nice overtonal thing going on. Huh? 12 years later - not necessarily better. Odd - but not a deal killer (there's a lot more bells and whistles to a CP50).

 

General tone - CP50 mellow - P80 and subsequent models - bright.

 

Key-off - damper returning to the string - oooooh - nice nuance on the CP50. Non-existent on the P80

 

GH Action - CP50 a little heavier than my P80 (just a little) - but then, I've been playing the P80 hard for 12 years. Again - what amazing construction. Anyone thinking of buying used - get a P80 for $400. You'll be happy.

 

Electric Pianos - CP50 - more choices. However, the Rhodes lacks the bell quality (albeit perhaps more realistic) of the P80. Definite bummer on the CP50 are the EP's they left off and only put on the CP5. Bugger. At least Roland didn't short change FP4 users relative to the FP7. Bad Yamaha.

 

Strings - simply more choices on the CP50. Would have liked more moderate-slow attack patches, and less biting patches (but perhaps I can get in and edit the attack envelope on the CP50 patches).

 

Harpsichord - key-offs on the CP50 -nice.

 

(NOT TRUE - I wasn't playing the organ patches with effects settings - I was simply scrolling through the samples in edit mode using the basic CFIII program and swapping out the program voice) Organs on a CP50 - CRAP! Really... not kidding.... they're crap. B3 to church organ players be warned - this is not your axe. I dread my next sit-in with the local blues band. Someone sure phoned in the organ samples.

 

Bass - Ooooo - the acoustic bass on the CP50 is fat and "touchy" - sticky gooey fingered goodness. Makes my P80 sound like a cheap sound module. LIKE IT. Rest of the basses - whatever. There is one velocity layered pick bass that isn't anything special. I remember a fabulous finger/slap cross-switch on and old Kurweil (I think it was on the 1000PX module) - whatever happened to giving us keyboard wanna be funk bassists that patch - miss it.

 

Guitar - (not on P80) - biggest complaint - no velocity cross-switch patches for acoustic guitar - particularly nylon (actually there is one - not incredible - but it's there). Whaaaa. So simple - why didn't we get one??!! CP5 has one with harmonics - but they didn't put it on the CP50. Acoustic guitars are usable - just would be more usable with dynamics. I don't have much use for the electrics and nothing cool about the distortion guitars - like going into feedback that you get on some keyboards.

 

Pads/Synths - uhhhh, get a synth - not a CP50 - nothing much here of any ear tingling interest. (I'm pretty much sticking to this comment - but there is stuff to experiment with in edit mode)

 

Brass - nothing special.

 

Winds - saxes - uhhh, come on guys - that's the best you could do? No velocity cross-switch - don't sound very good - why add these sounds without nailing them? This whole section and brass and synth are pretty much sound like general midi leftovers from an old yamaha workstation or module. I don't think I'm being too harsh. Expected more from a modern $2,200 list instrument. (Hmm, harsh, but further review on the CP50 - getting through ALL the presets - hasn't changed my opinion about this).

 

Choir - one usable patch (Choir2) One of my favorite Yamaha choir patches can be found on their old EMT-10 module - it was made to hook up to their digital pianos. Nice. This patch is close to that - it's an "ahh" patch.

 

Drum patterns - no fills, variations, A/B - just start and stop (assignable keyboard sync (any key or a specific note), button, pedal. Might use it on one track a night with my vocalist - for fun. That's why the left had bass/ride patch is so essential. Total control - simple - yet give the illusion of a trio.

 

THE REST: The CP's are new animals in terms of editing power. Sadly absent from the CP50 is the adjustable hammer hardness function that is on the CP5 and CP1. I was looking forward to tailoring my piano patch with more than EQ. Love Yamaha - but always a little too bright (Steinway to mellow) to my ears. I'm really looking forward to setting up my programs and naming them by song from my fakebook and storing them in the user programs.

 

Here's a handy bit of info - I printed the patch lists of the CP50 and CP5 and compared them - notable items missing on the CP50 but present on the CP5: S6 Grand, 73 RD1, 78 RD2, Dyno, A bunch of B3's, 2 pipe organs, Nylon guitar with harmonics, Jazz guitar, 4 choirs, 7 strings, Sweet Alto, Flute 2.

 

I have a feeling I may upgrade to a CP5 after awhile. I want a few of these voices and you can layer 4 parts plus rhythm on a CP5 - 2 on a CP50. CP5 has the internal vocal channel and mic in so I can process my singer through the keyboard and store settings. BUT - it's bigger and heavier - and that's a consideration.

 

Well - that's all the time I can give this tonight. And as far as I've gotten into the instrument. Only a few hours tinkering time so far.

 

Bottom line for me - piano sounds better than Roland, has more features I need than Korg SV-1 or Clavia Nord, wish it had variations and fills for the drums (since they included rhythm tracks), and HEY - didn't come with a music rack to put into the holes in the back of the keyboard - what the heck is up with that??? Oh, wall wart too - come on - we're pros!

 

First time out will be at the local casino in a few weeks. Feeling solid. Not overwhelmed, or, oh my god what an improvement over my P80 - but solid. Not quite sure if I'm getting the $1,300 difference after I sell my P80 (if I sell it) - I'll have to see how it sounds in rehearsal with my singer tomorrow.

 

Hope this helps anyone looking at this instrument. If you just need a great sounding digital piano - seriously check out the Korg SV-1 and Clavia Nord Piano too. I needed a few more bells and whistles for my duo gig - but if I was just concentrating on Piano/Keys - I'd consider those other two strongly.

 

Ciao.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

fitz, what about the P80's sound FOH, which is usually summed to MONO? I played a P80 on one festival gig, and listened to half a dozen other P80 performances (including the phenomenal MS based Eden Brent), and in every case the piano sound was pure mud (regardless of the stellar performances). My P120 sounds somewhat "phasey" monitering in mono, but doesn't translate nearly so badly FOH. For live, real-world gigging, it is a big attraction for the Yamaha DP's from CP33 on to feature mono samples.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by fitztracks

Thank you Anderton for the fabulous and obvious suggestion of midi"ing" up a drum machine to my CP50 to recreate the bass/ride left hand split I've been accustomed to on my P80. I haven't done it yet, but the more I think about it - what a fantastic idea! Now I will actually have separate patch/tone/volume control over the ride cymbal layered with the bass. At my last gig it was hard to bring out the ride without over-increasing the high eq on the entire instrument. Now I'll have the ride on it's own mixer channel.

First of all - again, great feedback in general. I don't know if I'd agree that the organs are "crap," because I've heard far worse...I need to dig into them further and see how editable they are, because it may just be a question of the processing. My impression of the organs is that the processing is a bit "timid," and messing with the amplifier processing block and compression might be just what the doctor ordered. We'll see when I get into the processing part.

Anyway, glad you like the MIDI drum machine idea, but you're not quite out of the woods yet. Most drum machines let you assign a pad to one, and only one, note. In that case, you would need to assign a high-hat to every pad, assign each pad to different notes, and hope there are enough pads to cover all the notes you want to play.

However, there is definitely more than one way to skin this particular cat. Most samplers have an option where you can trigger a sample over any key rather than restricting it to a particular range, and have it not transpose. The thinking here is you might want a situation where you can "finger roll" over multiple keys and not have the sound change, but nothing prevents you in this case from using the entire keyboard for triggering. You can probably find an old rack sampler for cheap on eBay or whatever, and if you can't find a ride cymbal sample, I can post one here.

And here's another option (hey, do we go the extra mile, or what ?). The company MIDI Solutions offers a device called the Event Processor. This can basically map anything to anything, and costs $149. I downloaded the software that controls it to see if it can do what you want it to do, and by golly, it does - see the attached image.

Basically, I set up a program that accepts any MIDI note, at any velocity, and maps it to MIDI Note 60 (middle C). But look further, and note that you can of course restrict the range that's mapped (it doesn't have to be any note, but just the ones that cover the range of your bass split), and what's more, you can also restrict velocity which might be helpful - for example, you might not want really low velocities to trigger anything.

I have used MIDI Solutions boxes in the past for other applications, and they've always worked well and been reliable. Granted it will set you back some $$$, but it sure seems like this is exactly what you want to have happen.

If you contact MIDI Solutions, IIRC the main guy's name is John. Tell 'em I sent you - he might not remember me, but it can't hurt.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by fitztracks

Oh, wall wart too - come on - we're pros!

I too share your dislike of wall warts, unless they're "global" types that handle a range from 100-240V, like you find with most computers. As someone who travels a lot, being able to run things in the US, Europe, and Japan is a big plus to me. The CP50's wall wart is 120V only, so it's basically set up for the US and nothing else.

However, in the interest of "fair and balanced," I should mention some of the advantages of wall warts. First, if you do travel, it's not a big deal to pick up a wall wart for your country of choice and use that. I bought one of those multi-voltage adapters for use in Europe for effects boxes like the AdrenaLinn (a big part of my act when playing over there), and have never regretted it.

I've also heard from companies that there's a time-to-market issue. I may not have this quite right, but IIRC, an engineer said that the UL approval process is pretty odious and time-consuming. Companies can bypass that whole issue simply by using a UL-approved adapter. Again, not sure if that's 100% true, but I think I got that right.

In my ideal world, all power supplies would handle any voltage from 100-240V, 50/60 Hz, and have an IEC-compatible detachable line cord so you'd only need to carry around a few line cords (or one with an adapter). From what I understand, though, that adds quite a bit to the cost.

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by way2def

fitz, what about the P80's sound FOH, which is usually summed to MONO?

 

This doesn't address your particular question, but if you want to know what the audio examples sound like in mono, just play them back through a mixer and set the panpots to center (or listen to a DAW or digital audio editor set to mono).

[fitztracks]

Hi gang - whew - I did come out a little strong against some patches. It's several hours later and, uhhh, surprise I discovered some nice stuff in the USER presets section. I don't know how I'd missed these. It's all about the ModFX/PreAmp - with some of this stuff - and - look - rotar speed control for the B3's - sounding much better!

When I wrote my last entry I was simply scrolling through all the internal voices using the settings of the base CFIII program - just swapping out the voice. Without the additional processing, some things sound lousy. But slap on a chorus, rotary speaker, different EQ, etc... and - that actually sounds good. I was being something of a purist there - as I do want voices that stand on their own and don't sound like junk once you switch off the FX processor.

So - I retract some of those harsh first impressions. Seems to be a theme. Lots of people say you have to give this instrument time and dig into it to really get what it can do. I must say the same thing. The more I dig in, the more attracted I am to programming this piano.

That MONO PIANO question - got me there. I haven't been in much more than a solo/duo - acoustic oriented ensemble for quite awhile. Smallish, intimate concerts generally. Would not doubt the remark that the P80 didn't work well FOH. I bet a Roland cuts better.

Further listening to the piano decay on the P80 (and likely many subsequent models) compared to the CP50 - what happened? I will hold to that critical remark - they really cut a corner there. On the CP50 you get just a tad of a natural sounding decay - then - bang - synthetic sounding, non-evolving, envelope driven, falling off to silence. Yuck. Not that most people are going to hear that through a PA. The P80 has a lot of overtonal content in the decay. Not so - certainly not very audible - in the CP50.

Having fun in the User Preset section now... had to stop and soften my earlier remarks.

As to that external ride patch to accomplish the bass/ride left hand layer - I figure I'd just use the keyboard zone control to send midi channel 2 on everything below my split point and set the drum machine to the desired ride cymbal patch (doesn't need to have a note number assignment) outside of a pattern mode and away I go...

Really is something to be sitting here exploring my first new DP in 12+ years. Glad I waited - there is plenty in here to play with. Going to add quite a new flavor to solo piano gigs (where I usually do an all-improvised Keith Jarrett"y" sort of thing - not that I'm putting myself in his class - but that's the association people make. He wouldn't goof around with delays, and layers and yadda - yadda - but I might. ;-)

THANKS FOR THE FORUM!!!!

[fitztracks]

Anyone test driving a CP series piano - important navigation tool: press Pre or User once to access Pre/User 1, again before a patch selection to access Pre/User 2, and again to access Pre/User 3 - to gain access to all presets. There are some dupes, so it's not 3x4(banks)x10 patches - but, this is where you find all the Yamaha setups for many of the internal voices - particularly the organs - which I bashed so brazenly earlier. Geez - gotta be careful - I feel bad spewing all that on the web after listening more carefully. I'm not blown away - but definitely not "Crap" as I had the nerve to suggest - or worse yet "phoned in". I can just imagine some sound designer at Yamaha telling me where to stuff my post.

I remember accessing these patches when I was shopping - but I received my CP50 while in the midst of a serious head-cold (which is lingering) - so I was out of it and mostly focused on my surprise to discover no bass/ride layered voice - a shock, considering I use it on several of the standards I perform with a singer.

So - switching off my CP50 after it's first day in my home, and a test drive of ALL the presets - and thinking, hmmmm - maybe I did get $1,300 more keyboard than my 'ole trusty P80. Yeah - even did find a cool distortion lead guitar...

I'll check back here again in awhile and see if there are any questions I can answer. I'm considering putting sound samples on YouTube - it was so helpful to scan everything other people had posted regarding various current DPs. Least I could do is pitch in some CP50 sounds not offered online.

Patrick

[Anderton]

Hey, post the sound samples here!

[fitztracks]

I'll be happy to post CP50 samples here. Cramming for the next gig - but will do it. Just playing the Steel String guitar patch - low and behold - velocity cross-switches after all.

I have to reiterate what others have said about the new CP's - gotta stay with them for awhile and dig in - then - one discovers these are very substantial DPs with alot going on. I can see I'll be getting into programming - and I'm already hoping someone will release patch libraries.

For myself, after 13 years on a P80 with nothing more than 12 programs with a variation button and a 3 LED display - I arrived at the CP50 with little appreciation for it's complexity and a certain impatience to dig in and discover things. But there is so much there I am truly feeling the value of the instrument. I took advantage of the 4 payment plan at ZZOUNDS for $1,699. I'm feeling very satisfied with the price and value of the instrument - it's balanced.

Still disappointed in the lack of complexity in the decay of the CFIII piano and am wondering if the S6 sample on the CP5 and CP1 does the same thing. I'm also hankering for those 2 extra left/right voices on the CP5 (for future patch programming), but not so excited about lugging around the larger keyboard or the extra $1k - for now. Think I'll stick with the CP50 and consider upgrading down the road.

By the way, in my opinion, put a good singer with this instrument and the packaged rhythm tracks and bass splits sound good - not cheesy. Even sounds good on it's own, but add another live voice and the drum machine/karaoke factor drops off. The patterns are nice (100) and so are the kits.

[fitztracks]

If you're trying to decide between a CP50 and a CP5 and the extra $1k and size and weight aren't a deal breaker - I say go with the CP5. I'm sitting here playing my CP50 and getting to some nice layers - with no possibility for a bass/split as the 2 layered voices are already used up. I'm already wishing I had the CP5 - but at this moment the price/size are concerns. My poor Toyota Camry is already abused by carrying a pair of Mackie SRM450's and a Yamaha P80 around.

Important - absent on the CP50 is the option to change hammer hardness. It's a CP1/5 feature only. BUMMER.

After playing the CP50 and CP5/1 in the store and returning home to play my acoustic grand - I was reminded that the CP50 is much closer to an acoustic feel. I read somewhere that the CP5/1 intentionally deferred to the electric keyboard feel - much lighter. I play fairly hard and with a fair amount of dynamics so the CP50 doesn't put me off. I actually wonder if the CP5 might be a bit light for my taste. Been playing a GH keyboard now for 12 years or so and I'm used to it.

Listen to the CFIII and S6 carefully and check the sustain/decay characteristics. I'm hankering for a CP5 now because I'm wondering if the S6 has more complex/overtonal or evolving content in the sustain/decay. The CFIII rolls off quickly. Disappointingly so. However, I find the Yamaha CP line to sound better than anything else out there with the same sort of structure - bass splits, rhythm tracks, wide variety of voices.

I've mentioned this before - Big Disappointment for me - Yamaha dropped the bass/ride layered left hand split voice on the new CP line. I don't know what they were thinking. It's so useful. It's on the Roland DPs - and has been on the Yamaha DPs for years. I'm still figuring out the best external midi solution for triggering a ride with the acoustic bass split.

I worked on my CP50 decision for months - and played everything out there. For a duo situation (piano/voice) - this is the best choice for me. For solo piano work, I'd have to seriously consider the Nord Piano.

[fitztracks]

Easiest explanation is to give an example of an arrangement. We do My Favorite things with a slow walking 4/4 for the first 8, then a fast 3/4 for the next 8. The Bass/Ride layer allows me to change meter and tempo at will - with the illusion of a trio sound. After my last gig several people came up to chat, mystified at what was going on - sounded like a jazz trio was on stage. I don't want to get trapped in a canned rhythm or pre-programmed bass. I do the bass playing myself. No pattern switching on the CPs - just start and stop. I assume they dropped the bass/ride layer because they put rhythms in the DP - but then, they must have not understood what users were actually doing with that patch - it's the fabulous alternative to having canned beats.

Right now I'm sitting here with my P80 on a tiered stand above my CP50 to see if I can deal with 2 boards on stage - ugh - too much lugging and my shoulder is already tweaking at playing the left hand parts on the P80 12" above the CP50. Got to be an easier way.

I think the best solution so far was Anderton's suggestion to get a Midi Solutions box that will allow me to remap the midi out data to direct all notes in a range (the lower keyboard zoned split) to a single midi note assigned to the ride cymbal on an external drum machine. Thought I'd get an SR-16 as it would give me a usable drum machine as well. The A/B/Fill footswitch setup is still the best thing going in drum machines (in my opinion).

I need to stop fussing about this missing bass/ride business - but we presently use it on My Favorite Things, Lullaby of Birdland, Feeling Good, Softly as in a Morning Sunrise, Sweet Dreams are Made of This (arranged), and Why don't you do right. Real bummer not to find the patch on the CP50. Kinda wedded to it at the moment.

[fitztracks]

Good luck with your deliberations. I actually had to put my CP50 back in the box and revert to my P80 for the upcoming gig. When we met for rehearsal yesterday we arranged Nearness of You, Shadow of Your Smile, and a crazy cool version of They long to be close to you which jumps back and forth between 4/4 and 6/8 - ALL using the bass/ride left hand layer. It's just too useful. Not having it is like not having the drummer show up to the gig.

As I began programming the CP50 I entered further into the reality that the new CPs are completely different animals than their predecessors. Of course this is fairly obvious, but making the adjustment takes awhile. These new CPs are part digital piano part, hmmmmm, programmable, sample-based keyboard. I made my first program and immediately realized - I want the CP5. I want to be able to have a 2 part layer in my right hand and a bass in my left - not just a single voice in my left hand. Since I can program what I want - I want the 4 layer (2 left, 2 right) option of the CP5.

I also want the adjustable hammer hardness, additional EPs and the S6 piano.

The CP50 gave me a solid taste of what the new CPs are about - and the CP5 is the ideal model - in my opinion. As of this writing I plan to upgrade from the CP50 to the CP5. AND - I have to have that bass/ride option - so it's either going to be an external sound module with a ride cymbal voice that I can trigger across the entire keyboard (zoning just the left hand split to send to the module) or I may take Anderton's suggestion and get a midi-solutions box to remap the left hand part to a single midi note addressing an external drum machine - the Alesis SR-16 being an obvious choice - with the A/B/Fill function that is good for live performing without being stuck with a pre-programmed song.

This has been quite a journey. Months of visiting stores and listening to everything I could find on YouTube and manufacturer's sites. I'm totally convinced the the Yamaha CPs are the way to go for someone like myself - playing solo or backing a singer doing standards and jazz-style arrangements of pop material. I have no use for the Roland/Korg arranger style backing tracks - sounds like karaoke to me. I've always found Yamaha to have the most realistic piano samples. There's fun stuff on the Rolands - like the 4 layer jazz vocal patch (though I don't know if I'd actually use it) - but I just hear a lot of noise and synthetic sound in the piano patches (to my ears).

After all my kicking tires, and test driving, and settling on the Yamaha CP - I have only 2 substantial issues - the missing bass/ride layer and the odd decay of the piano voice. I also wish the CP had a storage location for additional drum patterns that could be used to build patch programs.

That's it for the moment. Rehearsal in 1/2 hour - today's arranging project: All of Me, All the Things you are, Angel Eyes, Begin The Beguine, That's All and some other wonderful choices.

Thank heavens for music... and the piano.

[SingMeToSleep]

Originally Posted by Anderton

All right, let's hear what this baby can do. The CP50 has three demo songs built in, which you access by hitting two buttons at the same time.

The first demo song showcases the funky, Fender Rhodes-ish type electric piano sound. The thing to listen to here is the "bark" in the lower register, which has an uncanny resemblance to the real thing. I keep expecting a Miles Davis trumpet line to appear on top of it...BTW, check out the drums, which are the backing track for this particular performance.

The second demo song is all about showing off the piano. Does it sound like a real piano? Well, you can be the judge of that, but if nothing else it sure sounds like a recording of a real piano. Note the dynamics - when the player hits those notes hard, they really project well and ring out strongly. Having recorded a lot of pianos in my time, and played with them live, I must say this song really gets the piano thing across well.

The third demo song is also all about the piano, but it demos the dynamics even better; and listen to the consistency of sound between the upper and lower register. Honestly, if I was in a bar, heard this, and couldn't actually see the pianist, I wouldn't be able to tell you for sure whether I was hearing a really well-miked acoustic piano or the CP50.

Anyway, that's it for Yamaha's onboard demos, so as we check out some more sounds you'll need to put up with my keyboard playing But there are definitely some other excellent sounds tucked into the CP50's ROM, and we'll check them out next.

Where are these demos I can't find them.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by SingMeToSleep

Where are these demos I can't find them.

I assume you mean you can't find them on the CP50, right?

1. Press the File and Utility buttons at the same time.
2. Choose the demo song with the middle edit button.
3. After choosing the song, hit the sequencer Play button.

[DrPopper]

The CP5 is nice but I've found the S90XS to be much easier to setup and operate when playing live. Love those EP's so I'm using a CP1 for those.

[fitztracks]

Hello Again,

I've been meaning to go back and tone down my early remarks about the CP's. Like others have said, great instrument, but you have to give it a little time and dig in. There's a lot going on under the hood. Start designing your own patch program and, oh boy, hasn't been a digital piano like this on the market until now. OK, blah, blah, blah - thumbs up Yamaha CP's.

I am very pleased to report my idea for a solution to the missing bass/ride layered patch for a left hand split - WORKS!!! I spent $150 for the fix. I simply bought an Alesis SR16 (the old and still manufactured go to drum machine). As I'd hoped, there IS a mode whereby I can set a ride cymbal of my choosing to every note across the keyboard. It's fantastic. And I get a drum machine with that very cool A/A fill B/B Fill foot switch function. Great for standards with A & B parts - create a separate pattern for each with separate fills to transition back and forth, or to fill and back to the original pattern.

VERY SIMPLE setup. Simply go to the midi setup page and turn Drum In On (this switches on the midi in). Choose a Note Map - I chose 00-09 (this means user drum kits 00-09 will be mapped across the keyboard starting at midi note #1). Select User Drumset 00. Use the Page button to get into the edit and program every pad to the ride cymbal you like, and set pan and tuning. You can make every pad the same, or vary slightly for added effect when you are playing repeated notes from the keyboard. Set ASN Mode to Multi so one strike won't cancel the next. Now save the kit to 00. Then save the same kit to 01 - 05 (or more if need be - this will cover enough note assignments to get you to middle C).

Now you have a drum machine that will operate as a standard drum machine if you want to use the patterns and songs, AND when played via midi, it will produce a ride cymbal with every key stroke. Simply program your CP bass/split patch with a separate midi controller zone assigned to midi channel 2 (or any channel other than the right hand zone) and set the SR16 to the same channel. VOILA! Bass/Ride layer on a new Yamaha CP50/5/1.

AND - Even better than the bass/ride layer on all the current and previous digital piano's - this ride cymbal can be mixed separately!!! At my last gig I ran my old P80 through a dual 32 band EQ so I could bring out the ride cymbal frequencies. Simply using a 'high eq" knob to bring out the ride ruined the piano sound. Now I can have the ride on it's own fader.

Pardon me for going on so much about this - but those of you who have taken advantage of the bass/ride patch for playing Jazz are certain to appreciate this solution. That walking/swing bass line in your left hand, and whatever you throw in your right, creates a nice trio sound with a singer. I am so pleased to have found a solution. I sent my CP50 back, to upgrade to a CP5. Hope to make the new purchase in a few weeks.

Final note - I purchased a new SR16 (I know they can be had for 1/2 the price I paid) because I wanted a fresh internal battery to store my edited kits and patterns. If you purchase a used one, you may find the internal battery dead, and unable to store your setups. It will cost you $20 or more and some soldering to replace the battery. I decided it made sense just to purchase a fresh unit.

Hope this information is useful to someone.

Harmony Central Rocks!

Patrick

[Anderton]

Great info, Patrick, and now I know something new about the SR-16

Okay, now that we've solved those problems and offered some insight on the patches, I'm going to get back to the review. Let's look at the drum patterns next.