VOX TONELAB LE (GUITAR MULTI-EFFECTS PROCESSOR)

[Marc G]

Yuh know.....isn't the point of buying a modeler to use the amp and cab modeling? I mean...these units normally are kinda limited with respect to how you can use effects etc. so wouldn't it just be better to get stomp boxes if all you want is the effects?

[dwerlin]

Marc G:

For some people, yes, it would be better to get stomp boxes...depending on how they use them. If people want to put together multiple boxes of the same effect category, then they would have to get individual pedals (since the ToneLab and every other unit under the sun limits you on what effects you can use simultaneously).

However, for the cost of 4 good stompboxes, you can get the ToneLab LE, and have MANY more effects for the same price.

Also, like me for instance, I want a unit that I can use for direct recording (so I want the amp/cab models for that), but I also want a unit that I can run in front of my tube amp WITHOUT having to use an amp/cab model to color the natural tone of my amp (so I can use just stompbox effects).

[unhorizon]

I think my TLSE is pretty damn good at effects. Maybe better than amp sim.?

[Pascal]

Originally Posted by Marc G

Yuh know.....isn't the point of buying a modeler to use the amp and cab modeling? I mean...these units normally are kinda limited with respect to how you can use effects etc. so wouldn't it just be better to get stomp boxes if all you want is the effects?

Well, it is partly what I was wondering. dwerlin made it clear that I could bypass the amp/cab simulations and get the clean tone of my amp, so that's cool. [You can't bypass the modeling to get to the effects, but you can "neutralize" them. -JC.] Now the other part of the question is does using amp/cab models sound like ass when the tonelab is plugged into a guitar amp, or can the amp/cab mods be used to get different tone colors/breaking-up styles (with or with additional effects)? [The ToneLab LE sounds great when plugged into a guitar amp -- it's designed to be used this way, as all multi-effects are. -JC.]

Would that really be much more different than guitar => modeller => P.A. (incl. P.A. amp + speakers)... considering the amp would be a ss amp specialised in cleans (although the speaker in this one is a guitar speaker). [This is an ideal way to use the ToneLab LE -- using it to get your distorted/modeled/zany sounds, while your solid-state amp or p.a. delivers the "clean" sounds or acts as the neutral medium. -JC.]

If it does sound like ass, I might consider getting a few good pedals instead, indeed, but I would be interested by the extra flexibility of the amp models.

I guess an alternative would be to buy one of Vox's modelling amps, but I hear their cleans aren't exactly to die for...



Edit: Thanks Jon

[Pascal]

I guess I have my answer.... unless some of you guys disagree to what was said here: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/....php?t=1582259...

Thanks.

[Jon Chappell]

Originally Posted by dwerlin

[1]For some people, yes, it would be better to get stomp boxes...depending on how they use them. If people want to put together multiple boxes of the same effect category, then they would have to get individual pedals (since the ToneLab and every other unit under the sun limits you on what effects you can use simultaneously).

However, for the cost of 4 good stompboxes, you can get the ToneLab LE, and have MANY more effects for the same price.

Also, like me for instance, I want a unit that I can use for direct recording (so I want the amp/cab models for that), but I also want a unit that I can [2] run in front of my tube amp WITHOUT having to use an amp/cab model to color the natural tone of my amp (so I can use just stompbox effects).

Good points all, dwerlin.

[2]It's a reasonable question to ask of any multi-effects modeler if you can use just the effects -- by bypassing the modeling section up front. The short answer is no. The longer answer is that it's hard to turn the ToneLab LE (or any other multi-effects unit) into a true "hardwire-bypass front-end going into hi-Z-input stomboxes." You can turn off the effects, but you can't jump to the effects in a hardwire-bypass fashion. That's asking the unit to reconfigure itself electrically, which is not feasible, at least for a unit in this price range. The ToneLab LE can't be all things to all people, so it strikes a compromise. A workaround is to turn off the amp modeling or find the best "neutral" setting that suits your particular destination.

[1]As dwerlin says, if you want no modeling and just effects, buy stomboxes (or find your own "neutral" in the modeling section). Note, too, dwerlin's comment about most multi-effects limiting you to the number/type of simultaneous effects. So buy the one modulation effect you need (in addition to the onboard one you'll use), and strap that on via the ToneLab LE's Insert Point. If you really require two onboard expression pedals and two or more onboard modulation effects (e.g., flanger and univibe), the ToneLab LE isn't for you. It puts the stress in its modeling section and in its Valve Reactor-based front end. Which is not to say it slouches in the effects dept. Vox has done a great job in the effects modeling section, too, the specifics of which I'll get into in future posts.

[chiro972]

Originally Posted by ouch1234

There is a noise gate and it can be adjusted...its rather sensative..

This is my BIG problem with all the modelers I have tried. I bought the RP250 and it is horrible on the presets in the way it cuts off the sustain in a very unnatural way. My Vox DA15 amp also does this. Both of those also have a digital sounding hiss that is there all the time whether the noise gate is on or off.

Perhaps all this is simply the fact that these things aren't really suited for the practice room/bedroom volumes I usually am playing at. At some presets, if you don't have the guitar volume cranked and you don't really dig in to the strings, no sound comes out at all.

[Jon Chappell]

 

Originally Posted by chiro972

Perhaps all this is simply the fact that these things aren't really suited for the practice room/bedroom volumes I usually am playing at. At some presets, if you don't have the guitar volume cranked and you don't really dig in to the strings, no sound comes out at all.

 

In that case, it's not really the "things" themselves aren't suited, it's the noise gate setting. Simply turn down the threshold, or turn it off completely (and store that setting) for low-volume situations. It's true, though, factory presets are typically designed for the cacophonous and chaotic showroom floor of a music store. I often find them way overtweaked, and spend the first few moments auditioning multi-effects by knocking back the effects and gain settings.

[hobbstweedle]

As BenJammin62 mentioned earlier, I had the same aliasing/zipper noise issue with the TLSE models I tried. I tried 3 new out of the box models from GC and they all exhibited a God-awful fizz/fuzz around the notes. Totally unusable.

I tried all 3 units that my local GC had in stock along with the floor model and they all exhibited this behaviour. It was very audible and even the manager of the store admitted that something was very wrong with these things.

Unfortuately, I'm travelling and not on my own computer or else I would attach an audio clip of this.

That said, I have some fly dates coming up and I HAVE to buy either the POD XT live or try the VOX LE model since I can't fly my Bogner XTC heads. I don't need all the FX routing capabilities or really a lot of models....just a decent classic rock crunch and a sparkly clean, and I'll be happy.

However, why VOX still left the wah on the same FX block as the dist, is somewhat baffling. They claimed to have tweaked the LE per their customer suggestions, but that was by far the most popular gripe about the SE, and they totally avoided it.

Again, my issues were with the SE model.

[Jon Chappell]

I haven't run into any LE units with the aliasing/zipper noise you describe. The ones I've tried are quiet and smooth (with respect to digital artifacts). I don't think it's a problem, but I'll pass the info on to the Vox folks.

To your comment about the Wah and Distortion Pedal effects being on the same block:

These are both part of the modeled effects. So when you elect to use one of the Vox wah modeled effects, you use the same knobs to control those parameters that you would for the modeled distortion pedals in another setting. It's not an oversight, it's by design. You'd have to build in an entire wah stage -- with dedicated hardware and additional costs -- just for the wah (and then it begs the question, why the wah? Why not, say, the compressor?).

So Vox assumes if you select the wah as your modeled effect, you'll be dialing in your distortion downstream -- in the amp- & cabinet-modeling section, where you can program in Gain, VR Gain, EQ, and Channel Volume (in addition to the amp & cab selection). This is how you would solve this problem in the orthodox way -- using the modeled wah, and applying the ToneLab LE's best resources (the amp & cab modeling) to the distortion tasks. Or if you decide you want one of the modeled stompbox distortion units (like the "Octafuzz"), you can STILL use the expression pedal for wah by selecting the FILTRON (auto wah/envelope filter) effect in the mod section and assigning the manual parameter to the expression pedal. Not the same thing as a dedicated wah circuit in front of the Pedal modeling section, but a way to use the flexibility of the signal routing and amp/cab modeling to get "modeled Vox wah and distortion" or "modeled distortion and wah," respectively. I just don't want people to think you can't get simultaneous wah and distortion out of the ToneLab LE; you can, and in two ways.

[hobbstweedle]

good info on the wah situation Jon. Thanks!

[BenJammin62]

Originally Posted by hobbstweedle

As BenJammin62 mentioned earlier, I had the same aliasing/zipper noise issue with the TLSE models I tried. I tried 3 new out of the box models from GC and they all exhibited a God-awful fizz/fuzz around the notes. Totally unusable.

Originally Posted by Jon Chappell

I haven't run into any LE units with the aliasing/zipper noise you describe. The ones I've tried are quiet and smooth (with respect to digital artifacts). I don't think it's a problem, but I'll pass the info on to the Vox folks.

Yeah, Jon - I'm not saying the noise is still there (this was several years ago and mine was a pre-ordered original desktop Tonelab - very early production) but I do know that for some reason many people are obliviouse to this type of high frequency noise until it is pointed out - but once you focus on it you will hear nothing else...it's that irritating. An almost identical noise issue came up in a more recent early beta of a software amp sim and nobody noticed until I pointed it out - even then it was some days later before everyone knew what I was talking about and then it was cured by the developer by oversampling in the "tube" components.

Again, I wasn't saying the noise is there in the Tonelab LE - just asking. Roger that! -JC

[Oaksong]

Any idea how this compares to the GNX3000?

[jeverist]

Not so much with the Boss GT-8. For one thing, most effects that you would use on a regular basis - wah, od/dist, chorus, delay, reverb are always available and can be used in any patch, and in any chaining order. You do have a limitation with effects that are in the FX-1 and FX-2 group(can only use one of each), however, everything from FX-1 is also available in FX-2 and FX-2 has only some of the most esoteric effects.

There would never be an issue such as not being able to combine wah, overdrive and univibe in the same patch. That seems to be a pretty serious design flaw - can't do a lot of Hendrix songs without having that available.

Originally Posted by dwerlin

Marc G:

For some people, yes, it would be better to get stomp boxes...depending on how they use them. If people want to put together multiple boxes of the same effect category, then they would have to get individual pedals (since the ToneLab and every other unit under the sun limits you on what effects you can use simultaneously).

However, for the cost of 4 good stompboxes, you can get the ToneLab LE, and have MANY more effects for the same price.

Also, like me for instance, I want a unit that I can use for direct recording (so I want the amp/cab models for that), but I also want a unit that I can run in front of my tube amp WITHOUT having to use an amp/cab model to color the natural tone of my amp (so I can use just stompbox effects).

[Jon Chappell]

Originally Posted by jeverist

There would never be an issue such as not being able to combine wah, overdrive and univibe in the same patch. That seems to be a pretty serious design flaw - can't do a lot of Hendrix songs without having that available.

But you could combine wah, amp-&-cab-modeled overdrive and flanger/rotary/phaser. And you'd still have delay and reverb available too.


It really isn't a "design flaw." I reserve that term for situations like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge or when the handle of my shower stall door scrapes against the sink (contractors ... don't get me started). This is more a choice by the designers to focus on the Valve Reactor front end coupled with amp & cab modeling, followed by modulation, delay, and reverb effects downstream. The modeled pedal section is up front as a bonus, and yes, you can't use both "U-Vibe" and "Vox Wah" simultaneously. But you're talking about very specific, named models that you want used simultaneously. If you want to model, say, Hendrix, you'd really need at least four simultaneous modeled effects: A Vox Wah, an Axis Fuzz or Roger Mayer Fuzz-Face, a Mayer Octavia, and a Uni-Vibe.

I'm working on the solo to "All Along the Watchtower," and am getting good results with the modeled Vox Wah and the vintage KT66-configured Marshall models. (KT66's are similar to 6550's, which Hendrix was known to have used.)

The Boss GT-6 has a versatile effects matrix. But the Vox ToneLab LE will appeal to the people who buy into its 12AX7 tube, the Valve Reactor analogue sound circuitry, and the dedicated amp models and cabinet models. Add to that the modeled pedals on the front end, with the deep modulation, delay and reverb effects on the back end, and you have some pretty wide choices available.

[ouch1234]

I use the tonelab se..the le and the gnx3000 as well as the pod xtlive...and cybertwin se...so i have a good feel for modelers..i had the gt-8 and vg88 as well but i have to say for me the roland cosm stuff is just too sterile and 1 dimension to my ears..its not warm and analog at all.

Anyhow..the tonelab le is not really a scaled down version of the se..its less one pedal and the a/b amp switching but but has more selectability in the output section which is a plus for different applications.Overall the le "may" sound a bit smoother but again to my ears i dont notice much difference tonewise...if you have the se..you really dont need the le and the move to le may make you less happy if you are used to the 2nd pedal. There are some new effects on the le which are cool like tap delay and chorus tap..but the new metal pedal i could care less about as i am not a metal player. And the octave pedal and ring modulator...well those i would rather see replaced with more esoteric pedals and i do wish the le had a coice of 2 pedals( maybe an identical set of pedals on the same chicken switch so you can choose pedal1/2..easy to impliment on the same switch with an added button for effect2) ( set up like the amp/cabimet switch sharing the same switch with a button for each??)

But..This is not a flame to the pedal but a suggestion to vox in general.Overall the tonelabs sound fantastic and very warm and analog. The pod xtl with a variax is hard to beat for that dynamic of flexability..of course its a whole nother ballgame but to me the pod xtl has some sweet tones and options(i have all the modelpacks) and i like it in alot of ways much better then rolands offering. Of course the gt series by roland has versitile and endless effects for a tweekers fantasy but i found myself spening more time tweeking then playing because there are so so many options..you know what i mean right? "Maybe if i add this...oh yes i like that..but what about this setting up a notch...well...i am not sure...maybe if i change to this effect and add this...ect ect..."..it just can be an endless process...I like to K.I.S.S. and dial in an amp..cab..and effects 1-2-3 and save it and go....but thats just me...

The gmx3000 is a cool modeler and i like it and can get some really shimmery big tones from it..with the x-y pad thing in the edit software that has the ability to mix any amount of 2 amps and 2 cabs its pretty amazing what tones can come out of that..It has a very in your face sound and to me not as 3d as the tonelab stuff and somewhat flat sounding..i still get some neat tones and the pro features like xlr outs are very nice.

The adrelinn 2 is a cool tool for some wierd sounds and the amp models on it are decent but the interface to me is poor and cumbersome...but i like the unit itself for unique tones and effects.

The cybertwin se is a sweet amp(as is the cybertwin original which i had but sold) Its effects are very digital and clean but the reverbs are very nice as is the delay..I feel the ct sounds very warm and punchy but again its a little different animal then the tonelab as its an amp...

Back on topic the tonelab tube circuit really sounds warm and analogish to my ears and the le is a very solid versatile unit.

The next unit to go from my tools may just be the gnx3000...i am still debating this..

[ouch1234]

For effects box only use into a guitar amp then defianately get a gt-8...but the amp and cab models will not be as pleasing and warm and analog as the tonelabs..period!

As far as that Wah workaround..thank you for the suggestion Jon. I have had the se for a while and replaced my tube with a mullard type by groovetubes and its dead quiet with no "zipper" sounds at all..But then again I am not looking for it either...All i can say is this...Listen to a real tube amp overdriven with stomp boxes on and tell me there is no noise or wierd sounds and i will say you are crazy...

Jon is correct in saying no modeler will be everything to all people..I tried the zoom 9.11 unit for 3 weeks and just hated its tone..the tubes are useless as you needed to change the settings of both tubes for almost every different amp and there is no ability to save the tube settings so imagine bending over every amp change to readjust the tubes settings on the zoom?! Rediculous..the build was great and edit software nice but it sounded like a swarm of bees in summer...for a metal guy that may be just what he is looking for but to me it sounded like crap!

So for someone else the zoom is "the best" so I say thats cool but for my needs its just not working...If you are a metal head i would have to say in my opinion..stay away from the tonelabs and go with the gnx3000 or gt-8..The tonelabs can get saturated but really shine in the classic amp-just breakingup to rock tones...I think tonelab le added the metal pedal to try to appeal to metal heads as a selling point(as alot of modelers do because to actually play wide open saturated tube amps at high volumes is not practical financially and just noise issue wise for most teenage metal heads at home with the parents...lol..and mose pros into metal will have a real tube amp they play at clubs with.

[GCDEF]

Originally Posted by Jon Chappell

But you could combine wah, amp-&-cab-modeled overdrive and flanger/rotary/phaser. And you'd still have delay and reverb available too.

That's not the same thing at all. None of those sound like a Univibe. When I used it I just used a standalone what with it, but it would be nice if they could come up with a way to remove the limitation.

Do you work for Vox or something?

[Pascal]

Originally Posted by GCDEF

Do you work for Vox or something?

Well.... or M.F.?

Note that the forum is named pro reviews, not con reviews.

[Jon Chappell]

Nah, I don't work for Vox, but I do work for Harmony Central, which as Pascal points out, is owned by M.F. But that's all in the pro review FAQ. My task is not to glorify or defend the ToneLab LE blindly, but to review it fairly. THAT'S what I'm paid to do -- offer my objective observations. I like what I see so far, and I'm taking the broad view. Not having a dedicated Uni-Vibe is not the deal killer for me that it might be for some. Neither is the absence of the second pedal. I like digital effects and modeling, and what I like here is the incorporation of those elements with the 12AX7/analog front end and the Valve Reactor technology ported over from their Valvetronix amp series.

In fact, I do have issues with some of the aspects of the ToneLab LE, including its interface design (the display shows you only the bank #, not the bank/program #), the MIDI implementation (using 5-pin ports vs. USB is questionable), and the tap tempo implementation (which is a great inclusion, but a little clunky to access easily).

But I'd like to focus on the attributes of the unit first, and stay on-topic for issue specific to the ToneLab LE. There's a lot to explore in this unit. I like healthy dialog on some of the choices Vox made, and it seems we've struck a nerve, specifically in the Pedal modeling section. It may bear repeating the structure, to follow the recent thread: The select models are up front, followed by the amp and cab modeling (the unit's best feature, IMHO), and followed by the mod, delay, and reverb sections. Here's the image of the chicken-head selectors, followed by the matrix that allows you vary the parameters:

[andresc]

Not being very knowledgeable about audio equipment. I was wondering if some one can explain how the different settings relate to the different amp/cab types.
Then reason I ask is because none of the "Amp" presets sound right with my hot rod deluxe. The "Line" presets sound good; but i am sure it could be better kind of like the old tonelab...anyone?

These output settings are just suggestions (because there are other factors, like what guitar and picups you're using, too), and involve mostly EQ. Interestingly, I found that some of the programs sound better through my amp on the "Line" settings than the "amp" ones. So you're not alone here. Use your ear -- you can't screw anything up electrically speaking. --JC

[Mr. Diamond]

DESPERATELY SEEKING SOLUTION.
I own a VOX AD50VT and am amzed at how it makes my RG100s seem so pale in comparision.

Have been considering the LE but have a few concerns:
A) Redundancy - Logically, I would go with a clean tone on the amp and use the LE modelling instead for increased versatiltiy. Your thoughts Mr. Chappell? Yes, you got it; the modeling works best in a "neutral" setting." The ToneLab LE is still an effects processor, and so has to live in harmony with your amp. (The analogy that comes to mind is using a distortion pedal with a tube amp. Certainly they can be used together, but you probably wouldn't max out the tube amp's distortion, and then kick in the stompbox on a high setting.) So try a clean setting first, and then see which aspects you like coming from the pedal vs. the amp. --Jon C.

B) In regards to all of this business regarding running multiple effects at once... Maybe its' simply because it's Friday and I'm in need of a Guinness or 2 but I'm not clear here. Can you run multiple effects at once? Example:Wah, delay, chorus? Yes, all three, and even four -- refer to the chicken-head schematic above -- because Pedal, Mod, Delay, and Reverb are all separate blocks. So, to take your question, you could choose, say, the Vox modeled wah, the Multi-Tap Chorus, the 2-Tap Delay, and toss in Canyon reverb. --JC

JC, I think this forum is great and am glad I discovered it. Thanks!This really helps when looking for new gear. I could have used this in the 80's. Ah, the '80s ... when modes were mighty, rack-gear ruled, and hair was humongous! --JC

Any and all info is appreciated.

[Jon Chappell]

Okay, here's me messing around with the factory presets. I played these with an SSH Strat (w/Duncan Classic Stack pickups) through a 15-watt Matchless Spifire (tube amp w/EL84's), miked with a Shure SM57 about 3 inches off the grille. These are just the preset sounds, with no editing (except in #13, when I turned off the delay).

#11: COMCHORS - Bank 1, Program 1 -- the first factory preset is a clean, compressed sound with slight chorus. Some rhythm-y stuff.

#13: BIGLEAD - A huge sound for single-note lead work, but I took off the delay, because it was a little mushy. This is a blues-rock line in the style of Jimmy Page.

#32: S-R-V: For some reason, this sounded good for fingerstyle blues (as well as for SRV's lead/rhythm hybrid style), so I noodled around with some Delta licks. Note how when I back off the attack, the notes clean up, and when I dig in (like on the fills in the E chord), the tone breaks up.

#62: POWERBLS - Good for rhythm or lead, so I did a little of both, inspired by Billy Gibbons. Eking out that pinch harmonic in the lead section was effortless, due no doubt to the tube-driven distortion.

#84: ERUPTION - Hey, the name's right in the dang preset -- what else could I have played? Listen for the slow phaser effect over both the held chord and the tapping passages.

#74: THROAT - Here's a weird, totally non-guitar one to show off the bizarro effects, using the modeled Octave, Talk Mod, and Expression Pedal. I call it "Troglodytes on Acid meet Edgar Winter's Frankenstein."

[Mr. Diamond]

Samples sound really nice. So, I'm clearly hearing combinations of effects. Where is the issue?

[GCDEF]

 

Originally Posted by Mr. Diamond

Samples sound really nice. So, I'm clearly hearing combinations of effects. Where is the issue?

 

The issue, with me at least, is that there are limits to what you can combine. They're arranged into four groups and you get one from each group. I was expecting the next tonelab would remove that rather nasty limitation. It's disappointing that they didn't. I'm a Trower fan, and all the Trower effects are in one group, so it's not possible to use the same combination of pedals Trower or Hendrix used, which is a big annoyance to me. If you don't go for that sound, you may not care.