Members Bajazz Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members imnotded Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 Personally I like the Bose systems, given its applied correctly. Bose stuff is overpriced, and a little competition isnt ever bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 No US distributors for the product... Hmmm... Maybe because of patent "issues"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 12, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 No US distributors for the product... Hmmm... Maybe because of patent "issues"? Good question. Is the PAS/L1 system patented? A quick peak around BOSE.com didn't reveal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reson8tor Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 There may be components of the Bose L1 system that are patented, but I don't think they could have patented the small drivers-inna-tower over a sub idea. Renkus Heinz has been selling a higher-end (steerable array) version of that idea for a few years now: http://www.renkus-heinz.com/loudspeakers/iclive/index.html At $10k, it's not exactly a direct competitor. (Edit): Also, didn't Shure or someone else sell a tower/small driver PA speaker, years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted July 13, 2011 Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 A good short primer/history of column speakers: http://www.roger-russell.com/columns/columns.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 13, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 (Edit): Also, didn't Shure or someone else sell a tower/small driver PA speaker, years ago? Yep, Shure or someone: [ATTACH=CONFIG]336815[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted July 13, 2011 Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'll take this one - K-array KR400S . It's distributed in the USA by Sennheiser. Curious system of a 21" subwoofer with only a 3" VC and 24, 3" drivers (12 per speaker, which stack). The two part tops can then be angled via a hinged connector on the sub and between the 2 mains. Street price appears to be around $13,000 for 2 subs and 2 tops. Here's another link with more pics and the system setup in a variety of venues. Pricey, but not stupid pricey for even a serious weekend warrior type. I'm actually interested in hearing them, but can't get over the obstacle these types of systems would have in a small venue where people are near the stacks. For starters, one push and it looks like they'd snap off the subs. The bigger issue is that the entire thing comes to around 62" or just over 5 feet (EDIT - Actually I can't tell if it's 62" or 100", which would be over 8 feet. The spec is confusing. The pics make it look pretty tall). So if anyone stands close to the thing they are effectively blocking the entire speaker. I know, I know, these types of designs are less susceptible to that than a traditional box. Still, I'd be pretty PO'd the first time a dude decided to hang out all night 2 feet from the array. With boxes I can get them over heads and know something acceptable is coming out. In general these designs just seem fragile and easily blocked by bodies. Still I'd love to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted July 13, 2011 Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 I've also been lusting after the K array columns. Seems even the smaller KR200s can cover quite a bit of territory: http://fohonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5160&Itemid=1 A little on the KR400s: http://fohonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5036&Itemid=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted July 13, 2011 Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 Good question. Is the PAS/L1 system patented? A quick peak around BOSE.com didn't reveal. As far as I know, the Bose patents are around the physical coupling of the two smaller cabinets pieces and the electric connections ... not the principle of line arrays As saw the LD's and heard the k-arrays in Germany a few months ago (also the HK, which is a beautiful mechanical execution). None of these seemed to deliver the sound quality I'd associate with their respective pricing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 13, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 As far as I know, the Bose patents are around the physical coupling of the two smaller cabinets pieces and the electric connections ... not the principle of line arrays As saw the LD's and heard the k-arrays in Germany a few months ago (also the HK, which is a beautiful mechanical execution). None of these seemed to deliver the sound quality I'd associate with their respective pricing. I was thinking along the lines of them holding a patent for a compact portable public address system utilizing a short vertical array, an undersized subwoofer, and an exhorbitant pricetag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reson8tor Posted July 13, 2011 Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 The K-Array stuff looks interesting. Also, it seems they now have a prosumer version, the Blueline KB1. In a quick search, I didn't find anyone selling them in the USA yet. At about $3,500 list with an included digital mixer (based on a UK price sheet I found), it looks like it's aimed squarely at Bose's musician market, unlike some of this other higher-end stuff. It will be interesting to see if they find any wide distribution here. The thing I mainly dislike about the Bose system is the way it's marketed as something that eliminates the need for conventional monitors, with the tower behind the performers. That might work in a few limited situations, but I've seen it fail more often than not. And then the towers get put in conventional locations to avoid feedback, or so the performers can hear themselves better from the front. If you look at the in-use photos on the K-array and Renkus-Heinz sites, they're showing the gear in conventional locations at stage front and sides. The appeal is partly the steerable array, but I'll bet the main reason people spend money on these things is to get a low visual profile. It's more invisible as a church installation, and it looks sexier at a trade show than a conventional box on a stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 13, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 I've personally never seen anyone have feedback problems using the BOSE system behind them, and most venues were tiny with the towers about 6 feet behind and to the side of the mics. If someone insisted on taking the mic and pointing it at a tower it definitely fed back. But that's normal use, is it? I have heard of people having trouble with them. I just don't know the actual details as I haven't witnessed it personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reson8tor Posted July 13, 2011 Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 For sure, feedback problems will vary based on the skill of the user (not pointing mics at the tower, etc.), but these things are marketed to people who don't want the hassles of a conventional system, and often aren't that knowledgeable. I've seen 'em feed back a bunch of times, typically when someone sets gain with their head or body blocking the mic, then they lean over to put a guitar in a stand and it takes off. If reflective walls are fairly close, the tower's wide dispersion doesn't help either. All that reflection comes in behind the mic, instead of more towards the front, as with a conventional main speaker location. This is the kind of thing that can be helped with a bit of EQ, and/or a feedback killer in the signal chain. At very small gigs like private parties, I've placed a single SOS behind an acoustic duo or trio and made it work. But you have to know what you're doing, and in my experience, many Bose L1 owners don't. The Bose marketing approach practically selects for people who don't want to know much about running a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted July 13, 2011 Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 The same thing that makes any speaker feedback does the same to these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reson8tor Posted July 14, 2011 Members Share Posted July 14, 2011 The same thing that makes any speaker feedback does the same to these. Yeah, but Bose is the only manufacturer that tells their customers that the recommended way to use their product, is to put the FOH mains behind the mics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 14, 2011 Members Share Posted July 14, 2011 Yeah, but Bose is the only manufacturer that tells their customers that the recommended way to use their product, is to put the FOH mains behind the mics. And for good reason too. It has to do with the SPL density from pattern control, which is valid above a certain point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members camplg Posted July 14, 2011 Members Share Posted July 14, 2011 This is the one I would choose: http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/tou...theatre/ttl11a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 14, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Yeah, but Bose is the only manufacturer that tells their customers that the recommended way to use their product, is to put the FOH mains behind the mics. Are you expecting BOSE to make an idiot-proof product? Is this possible? BOSE has basic instructions on how to use the product. If one follows them even remotely, and isn't acting like a complete jackass, the system works really well to self-monitor. It's not elfen magic, and doesn't bend the rules of physics. It's using a short line-array to best advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flogger59 Posted July 14, 2011 Members Share Posted July 14, 2011 The R-H Iconyx is feedback resistant (not feedback proof) if you set mics in front of it, because they are manipulating the phase relationships among the drivers in the array (each speaker in the column has its' own amp and DSP). Within about 20-25 feet the wavefront hasn't coalesced, so it's tougher to get a feedback loop. Get beyond 25', though, and all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members imnotded Posted July 14, 2011 Members Share Posted July 14, 2011 Yeah, but Bose is the only manufacturer that tells their customers that the recommended way to use their product, is to put the FOH mains behind the mics. We run with out mains behind us at least 50% of the time due to space issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reson8tor Posted July 14, 2011 Members Share Posted July 14, 2011 We run with out mains behind us at least 50% of the time due to space issues. Sure, I do that too, although not quite that often. I've got a gig this evening at a private party where we'll probably be doing that. But that's a compromise for a less-than-ideal performing space, not a "best practice" for sound reinforcement. I assume if you preferred that setup, you'd be running the system that way 100% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted July 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 14, 2011 I had feedback issue once with my BOSE PAS L1. It turned out that the gain structure was completely wrong + I used a omni headset mic very close to the speaker. Since that time I don't get feedback unless I crank up and touch my mic with the speaker. I use a headset mic DPA 4088, but once I adjusted the gain on wireless receiver, beltpack, BOSE input and BOSE mixer I had no issues with my Countryman E6 omni either. It's a good idea to read the manual and work with any gear before you drag it on the road... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted July 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 14, 2011 And oh yes: I always put the BOSE a few feet behind me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted July 15, 2011 Members Share Posted July 15, 2011 Yeah, but Bose is the only manufacturer that tells their customers that the recommended way to use their product, is to put the FOH mains behind the mics ...and you should. When I had an l1 i never had feedback issues. And the Bose system is less prone to feedback than a conventional system when placing both behind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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