Members WynnD Posted February 22, 2014 Members Share Posted February 22, 2014 snake returns are usually only suitable for signals and not for amp outputs. Might want to check the wiring on that. 20 gauge would be bad. 14 gauge is probably OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 24, 2014 Members Share Posted February 24, 2014 Typically, thought not always, the foh guy will use house Left, cntr, right rather than stage right, etc. it depends. What's clear is that it will be is identified as such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 24, 2014 Members Share Posted February 24, 2014 The correct term is parallel connection, not series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 27, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Series:amp (+) ----------------amp (-) Parallel:amp (+) ---------------> | | >to other spkrs>amp (-) ----------------> For 99% of commercially available speakers, if there are two jacks, they are wired in parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nousername Posted March 28, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2014 So, tomorrow's (sold out) show is Curtis Salgado. It will be my 17th show as an "engineer", so you can imagine I have a bit of anxiety about it. I'm bringing in my own active cabs to get a third and fourth monitor mix. Otherwise, it should be just like any other night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted March 28, 2014 Members Share Posted March 28, 2014 So' date=' tomorrow's (sold out) show is Curtis Salgado. It will be my 17th show as an "engineer", so you can imagine I have a bit of anxiety about it. I'm bringing in my own active cabs to get a third and fourth monitor mix. Otherwise, it should be just like any other night.[/quote'] Good luck! Just another night right? ...dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted March 30, 2014 Members Share Posted March 30, 2014 So? How'd it go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nousername Posted March 30, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 30, 2014 It went very well. Only the bass player brought his own vocal mic. That surprised me. Curtis brought his own harp mic, but not vocal. I gave him an Audix OM5. That or an e835, or an Audiopile V-1 (SM58 clone). All five guys were singing. Sheesh. All the musicians setup their own gear, then the tour manager and I ran XLR. Well, he ran them and I fiddled with monitor sends. We have two (2 wedges downstage and a single cabinet upstage) mixes, and I route them through our 2 channel EQ, instead of the mains going through the EQ. The tour manager wanted a third and fourth monitor mix. I brought in my ELX 112P cabs, but we had to decide which to EQ. It was decided to be the drummer and Curtis. So I ran TRS to XLR male out of aux 3 and 4, leaving aux 1 and 2 alone. But aux 2 had to be pulled OUT of the EQ and be replaced with aux 3 for Curtis. So, aux 3 > TRS to XLR male > EQ > XLR female out all the way around the room to the stage > Curtis' monitor. Aux 1 for the drummer was already routed the EQ. I was furiously making notes of course. That left the pair of MR825 wedges for a single monitor mix on downstage SR and upstage L. Keys got aux 4 with no EQ (my second ELX 112P). Drums - aux 1 (EQ), SR and upstage L - aux 2, Curtis - aux 3 (EQ), keys - aux 4. It managed to get completed with only one mistake, and the manager helped me get it fixed. I had the wrong set of long run XLR coming out of the EQ going to the stage. Whew. Of course, I have no short cables, so the TRS > XLR were all 25 footers. Now bundled up in any available space around the desk. Desk to EQ (directly under the desk) is not 25 ft. Soundcheck started with the manager on stage, doing a vague monitor preset for each player's position. He also EQ'd the two mixes by calling out the frequency to be cut. It was AMAZING. The skill and efficiency was so welcome after working with amateurs week in and week out. The band came up, and played a few minutes. We dialed in each mix and that was it. The tour manager told me as soundcheck ended he was going to run vocal faders and I would run instrument faders during the show. No problem. As the band started, he came over and adjusted one fader from the opposite side of the board. Then he came back a minute or so later and adjusted the EQ on the strip of another channel. And then he never came back except to tell me there was ten minutes to go. After the gig he said that things were going just fine with me alone on the desk, so there was no reason for him to get involved. I shook his hand and sincerely thanked him for the compliment. It's a nice feeling to get recognition from someone like that. Plus, there were no complaints about the level of the house, so that was good. Weird synchronicity: as the band was finishing their last song, I pressed play on the iPhone that plays our break music. I didn't notice what it was. They finished, said goodnight, I muted all channels, then unmuted channel 20 with the break music. Blues Brothers "Soul Man" was playing. What kind of sorcery is that? I seriously had to stop for a second. It was very spooky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted March 30, 2014 Members Share Posted March 30, 2014 Sounds like this tour manager fellow was a real pro. I love working with real pros in any context. Such a great opportunity to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted March 30, 2014 Members Share Posted March 30, 2014 Congrats nousername -- sounds like it went well and a special congrats on the compliment from the tour manager. I agree with Wes, a great opportunity to learn. I've been following this thread from the beginning but forget some specifics (and all the early posts are still gone so I can't review) -- so you had to forgo EQ on the mains so you could EQ two of the four monitor mixes? Yikes! At the risk of sending an easy fast ball straight across the plate for Andy's batting amusement, any chance the venue owner would consider upgrading the desk to even a modest digital (digilog?) unit like a SL 16.4.2? Now I'd be the first to agree that one should not use processing options unless needed but having basic EQ on all the outputs hardly seems excessive. The 16.4.2 has six auxes each with (semi) PEQ and GEQ -- likewise for the mains. Given that your working with an installed system in a venue that very likely was never designed for acoustic performance, setting EQ on the mains will likely make a substantial difference -- especially using something like the Smaart Room-analysis wizard that comes with the SL. Likewise the monitors. Just a thought. I know you're still relatively new there and trying hard to learn the ropes (and not make too big of waves) but for $2k you (and the owner) could have a much more flexible system to work with. Besides, with all that HPF, gates/limiters, compression, PEQ, and GEQ available you could get yourself in all kinds of trouble and generate tons of posts here (it's been too quiet 'round here lately anyway -- kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nousername Posted March 30, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 30, 2014 Thank you very much. My anxiety was for naught, as everything went very smoothly. In fact last night was the first emergency in nineteen shows. Local band, they decide it's okay to arrive 30 minutes prior to doors. Okay. Bass player shows up 20 minutes AFTER doors. Okay then. His vocal mic was ready, as was his cable from his preamp to the snake. It was literally thirty seconds to get him going. Quick level check, no clipping on the board, he wants nothing in the monitors, done. They start a song, and I've suddenly got no signal light on that channel. Weird. I fire up the talkback and ask if he changed something. He says no. I mute the channel, go up there and swap cables and then swap inputs on the snake. No change. Now I add a DI box and another instrument cable. Instant fix. Back to your post. Around the third week or so, I started playing with the EQ. First thing was to download an RTA iPhone app. It's not perfect of course, but gave me a rough idea of holes in the sound. I made a couple adjustments and when I pressed the bypass button, the difference was negligible. As far as my ears and the app could tell, anyway. This was listening to a .wav on my iPod of a song I know. When I routed the monitors through the EQ, this was a HUGE improvement. Those cabs are muddy as anything, and cutting a few of the sliders made things a lot better. I will make slight changes on the channel EQ if the input needs it, but nothing more than 3dB either cut or boost. Believe me, I think it would improve things if I did have the ability to EQ the mains AND have the tools to analyze it properly. i.e., not an iPhone. The chances of even a used 2 channel dbx EQ making its way onto my table are slim to none. It's a new business, and they've told me the bills are being paid, but I don't think there's any money for upgrades. On our local craigslist site, a pair of Peavey PV118 subs popped up last week. They are asking $300 for the pair. My boss wasn't interested. And he knows we only have one at the moment. So, I think like most small clubs I just have to make do with what I have. This is where I get the itch to buy something, but hold myself back. There's a pair of Audio Logic SC-31 units over in Portland. $80 for the pair. Seems like a no-brainer to buy something like this, but cooler heads prevail with my money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted March 31, 2014 Members Share Posted March 31, 2014 Roger that nousename -- we all have to live within certain limitations. I'll bet even Andy can think of some upgrades to his venue if the economics would support it. Sounds like you are doing a good job of making the best with what you've got. That said (and I'm just shooting my mouth off now) what did the venue pay to the Curtis Salgado troupe for that sold-out show? Glad it went well but you have to wonder if that tour manager has talked to other regional acts and said, "Yea, we pulled it off and made it work but wow, they didn't even have basic EQ on the mains. I'd be careful booking there in the future". OK, I'll shut up now . Do keep up your posts -- I enjoy them -- as your and my situations are not that dissimilar actually. ..dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nousername Posted March 31, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'm guessing around $3000, which was door receipts. The amount of booze sold was likely insane. I agree about the word of mouth aspect. Last month a Johnny Cash tribute band was in and we were talking about crap venues. They actually keep a list of places they won't ever revisit. So I imagine it's possible. Although, this is Curtis' second appearance, and number three is already in discussion. My annoyance this week is my boss told me when I was gone to see Tool a couple weeks ago, he paid another guy $200 for the night. I'm only making $85 per night, maximum. grrrrr My wage isn't a surprise to me (duh!), but the extra high compensation to the fill-in is weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ewizard Posted March 31, 2014 Members Share Posted March 31, 2014 Congrats on the new job! I'm going to give you some advise that I hope doesn't offend you..... For one realize that your lucky; very lucky, to be in the position your in. Don't take that for granted. Your in essence playing around with someone else's rather large investment. The goal is to maintain it and reduce the potential for failures to that equipment. This includes user errors, abuse and misuse! Don't get stale in the learning department. You should be spending some considerable amount of time learning the system inside and out from how it's connected, what it's powered with and how to properly protect the speakers. There is soooooo much more to saying your a sound guy than simply being able to get sound to come out. You should be proficient in setting a PA up from a bunch of random pieces into a working PA, as well as the tuning aspects of dealing with the effects of the room and other anomalies. There is a science to it and simply making things sound good isn't always enough. I have been doing sound for a little over ten years and run my own small sound company that has done me very well. Many in the industry will say that your not truly a sound engineer unless you own your own equipment. This is true to a degree, as the right to say so should have a right of passage???? Now adays there are many bands and individuals that own small, barely adequate systems that rob the true professionals of gigs and destroy the image a truly good engineer could otherwise change. The reason being is that the professionals get undercut, the show sounds ok at best and the clients and regular users have a general impression that it's as good as things get. It's embarrassing to call the local hero sound extraordinaire up and ask him to set up a show with you and he doesn't have a clue whats going on. This is the guy that uses other peoples already installed PA's and has a barely passable one of his own. He is good at making people happy and producing good sound, but if you give him a real production with a more complex system, he couldn't even tell you how it works...... This is important to avoid. You want staying power. You want to be the guy that can go into any situation and have a solid grasp on what the heck is going on. It's so much more than simply left, right, Aux. 1-4 and EQ for each output. It's understanding how to best set up a PA in a room, tune it, then how to mic the instruments and best utilize the tools you have and above all else, produce consistently good results day in and day out in more than one venue. Never stop learning sound and it's science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted March 31, 2014 Members Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't know about the sound industry, but I make WAY more money when I moonlight as a hired gun than I do at my regular gig. I wouldn't worry about if I was you at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nousername Posted May 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2014 Still working at The Roxy. Still mostly working with amateurs. The best experiences have been with Curtis Salgado and a solo acoustic guitar player/singer. Curtis had stage volume, but his band managed it well and thus the vocals sounded fine. The solo guy had NO stage volume, so it was easy to balance the two inputs and have a great sound. But most nights, people have crap mics, or their amps turned up too much. Last night only kick, toms, OH, and vocals were in the mix. And the two guys singing into a 57 and 58 were at least 5dB quieter than the guy with a Neumann KMS105, who sounded amazing obviously. They were so quiet in fact, there were multiple comments made about the guys using the Shure mics. "I can only do what I can do." :shrugs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 3, 2014 Members Share Posted May 3, 2014 Was there a reason why you weren't able to balance the kms-105 to the shure mics better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nousername Posted May 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2014 Was there a reason why you weren't able to balance the kms-105 to the shure mics better? Sorry, I typed that incorrectly. The mics were mostly balanced in the mix, but to get them balanced the Shure mics were pushed to a higher level on their channels than the Neumann was. About -5 to -3dB for the Neumann and +5dB for the Shure mics. And the +5db for the Shure mics was just enough to get them over the stage volume. By the third set, bass and guitars were no longer in the house mix. It was drums and vocals only. So, a typical night for me in other words... If the guys using the Shure mics had even the slightest change in mouth to mic position, it was enough to cause them drop out (of a barely balanced mix) and then the complaints started. "We can't hear Jack." "Well, tell Jack to turn down his amp." This drawing should be good enough. [ATTACH=CONFIG]n100547[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nousername Posted May 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2014 Was there a reason why you weren't able to balance the kms-105 to the shure mics better? Sorry, I typed that incorrectly. The mics were mostly balanced in the mix, but to get them balanced the Shure mics were pushed to a higher level on their channels than the Neumann was. About -5 to -3dB for the Neumann and +5dB for the Shure mics. And the +5db for the Shure mics was just enough to get them over the stage volume. By the third set, bass and guitars were no longer in the house mix. It was drums and vocals only. So, a typical night for me in other words... If the guys using the Shure mics had even the slightest change in mouth to mic position, it was enough to cause them drop out (of a barely balanced mix) and then the complaints started. "We can't hear Jack." "Well, tell Jack to turn down his amp." This drawing should be good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 4, 2014 Members Share Posted May 4, 2014 Where were your trims set? Different sensitivity mics will require different gain Different patterns will respond differently to sound source position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted May 4, 2014 Members Share Posted May 4, 2014 When there is background music in a place, I frequently use that to set a baseline on the trim for all vocal mics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted May 4, 2014 Members Share Posted May 4, 2014 When there is background music in a place, I frequently use that to set a baseline on the trim for all vocal mics. Use what? The background music to set vocal mic trims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nousername Posted May 4, 2014 Author Members Share Posted May 4, 2014 Where were your trims set? Different sensitivity mics will require different gain Different patterns will respond differently to sound source position. All three were set to just below clipping when each singer gave me their loudest signal. I can't say the exact position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted May 4, 2014 Members Share Posted May 4, 2014 Use what? The background music to set vocal mic trims? Exactly. I set them all to the same low level of mic input. When I know that one singer needs more than others, I'll add another 3-5 db on that mic channel. If I've got a real big mouth, they get cut back some. You've got to start somewhere and I generally like the channel faders to be about 0 db at the start of a gig. If I've done a pretty good job, the faders won't move during the night. (That makes my life easier when mixing from the stage.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted May 4, 2014 Members Share Posted May 4, 2014 Seems like that would really mess up a monitor mix, if you were running monitors from the FOH board. And it's effectiveness would vary greatly depending on the pattern of the mic being used and how much of the background music it was actually picking up. Why not just use the PFL meters and check each vocalist individually at sound check as was intended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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