Stereo vs. Mono - Live?

[GigMan]

Ok, I know we've covered this before but I'm still curious to hear other viewpoints (and just too tired [a/k/a lazy] to dig up the old posts, so here goes:

 

I want to hear from those who play out in live gig situations: do you run your rigs in stereo or mono? I want to hear from those who may send their Main Outs in stereo to the band's FOH and monitor themselves in mono (what I do, sometimes). I want to hear from those who use self-contained stereo keyboard amps - like The Pro and his Motion-Sound KPS-200. I want to hear from those who go so far as to even monitor themselves in stereo - like Surreal McCoy, who I think uses Yamaha MS400 powered cabinets, if I remember - for his Yam. S90? And finally, I want to hear from those who think stereo in a live situation is a waste of time + perhaps even detrimental to your sound as a keyboard plyr.

 

I want to hear from the live "playas" - wheresgrant3, tucktronix, eric, nolights, murf, Mal Sellars, jchas, dan88z, b3keys, orangefunk, Roald, et. al. ...

 

 

[Tai Mai Shus]

i'm not a "playa", but i'm going to put my money on mono for the win.

 

I'm feeling lucky tonight.....

[eric]

I'm a stereo addict, using dual Motion Sound KT80s for all gigs unless there is a space limitation on stage, at which point I will just grin and bear it in mono.

 

The keyboards I am using (S90 and Electro) really come alive in stereo and it inspires me to play things differently or just plain better. It a bit hard to explain that inspiration, but I guess the fuller spread seems more natural and real. Particularly with the Leslie simulator on the Electro. In stereo, I could swear there is moving air from a real rotating horn. I do not get the same feeling in mono. Also, I found that the S90 piano sounds are MUCH BETTER in stereo. They seem to be lacking a bit when playing in mono.

 

Another benefit I have found is that I don't need to crank my amps quite as high in stereo. This is easier on my ears.

 

I'll toss in a couple of other benefits of having 2 separate amps (I have posted this on the KC forum previously):

 

1) I can just use one amp if the stage is too small

2) I have a compact stereo rig that fits most anywhere

3) If one amp fails, I always have the back-up right there with me

 

When it comes to the house sound, most of the soundmen in my area are not using a "true stereo" PA, so I just send one line to them. When I come across a soundman with true stereo, he gets 2 lines to the PA.

 

Regards,

Eric

[mrcpro]

Stereo for me, unless I absolutely have to...and unfortunately those are always the biggest jobs where a real professional PA is provided and those guys always run in mono. I'm prepared for it but I don't like it.

[orangefunk]

At the moment I'm trying the "no monitor" technique, relying on the PA... I can do this but one other people in the band won't even give it a try, as they want to hear themselves a lot louder.. unfortnately I can see the usual battle of the monitors and feedback problems slowly arising.. this combined with fact some people are really tight with money and use crappy gear, bizarrely, or expect me to buy everything for them (I kid you not!)

 

I only play small gigs at the moment, but at larger venues I'd probbaly use a small Marshall acoustic guitar amp I got.. its pretty clear and compact... its mono btw.. and it sounds a whole lot better with my Promega 3 than it did with the P120. I don't get any phase problems at all...

[wes-ninja250]

I see you saw my earlier post -- to answer your questions, I find that stereo monitors are a waste of money, time and effort. But stereo PA -- no way, it's worth the effort. But no crazy full-pans on individual sounds (well, unless it's for a special effect).. it just gives a "fuller sound" when using a bit of mild DSP .. chorusing, reverb, etc. To me, this is most important in a club packed with bodies which tend to deaden the space.

 

If I ever gig again, I'm going to really want stereo.. I have a Simmons SPM which lets me pan against an LFO. It sounds really wicked with organ sounds.. but again, the context must be right.

 

Speaking of crazy full-pans, I once was in a group that a post-apocalyptic kind of story/song. Starting the near-future section with a helicopter sample moving around the room was pretty sweet. I had had of those processors that can make sounds move up and down, as well.

 

Wes

[The Pro]

You already know what I think - stereo or death. Still nothing I like better than my Motion Sound KP-100s and KP-200s stereo amps which serve as both monitors and mains in small to medium rooms (sits on an amp stand directly behind me). In large rooms or outdoors I take direct outs from the KP-200s and go straight into a pair of powered JBL EON G2 10's and matching powered subs for a surround-sound system (surround for me, stereo for the audience).

 

I play one place that has their own PA made up of two powered Mackies and those work fine too. In this case they are set on the stage like monitors but pointed towards that audience and slightly behind me on either side - so they act as monitors for both me and the audience.

 

I should note that I play solo 95% of the time. I still use the KP-200s when I sit-in with bands and run a stereo send to the FOH mixer. I can also take a vocal monitor send from the house mix back into my KP-200s so it can act as a vocal monitor too. Very handy.

 

(.)(.) The best things in life are in stereo...

[nolights]

whoa... it's cool to be a "playa".

 

Yep ---to paraphrase The Pro...and give it a New Hampshire spin... live stereo or die.

 

In fact, it was The Pro who convinced me that the problems with my live sound (using a Roland KC-300)...i.e., that muddy, flat-tire, hollow sound... could be cured with a healthy dose of stereo in the form of a KP-200s.

 

I play in a band...and as a duo/trio. In the band, we do funk and classic rock covers in bars most every Friday and Saturday night. I've got an S-90 and CS6X for these kind of gigs. We're a low-budget operation... the band's PA is mono, and none of the clubs we play at have anything better than that. So, I put the KP-200 behind me and facing away from the rest of the band (and I don't use very much stereo expansion)...and use it as a monitor, while sending a single line to the PA. At least I get to hear good sound, which does tend to help me play better. Mostly, the kinds of pianos I play are the kind you'd hear in "Takin' Care of Business" or "Old Time Rock and Roll" (God, I hate that song)... just pounding, piercing, bright piano. The KP-200 does well on organs, EP's and brass, too.

 

For the jazz gigs, the KP-200 really shines. Just the right amount of power to play almost any wedding reception, corporate or cocktail gig. Good enough bass... and I really crank of the stereo expansion (which is pretty amazing). I tend to play a mellower piano or one of the great S90 Rhodes sounds.

 

Yep, Stereo is the way to go!

Yep, Stereo is the way to go!

[GigMan]

Originally posted by eric I'm a stereo addict, using dual Motion Sound KT80s for all gigs unless there is a space limitation on stage, at which point I will just grin and bear it in mono. The keyboards I am using (S90 and Electro) really come alive in stereo and it inspires me to play things differently or just plain better. It a bit hard to explain that inspiration, but I guess the fuller spread seems more natural and real. Particularly with the Leslie simulator on the Electro. In stereo, I could swear there is moving air from a real rotating horn. I do not get the same feeling in mono. Also, I found that the S90 piano sounds are MUCH BETTER in stereo. They seem to be lacking a bit when playing in mono. Another benefit I have found is that I don't need to crank my amps quite as high in stereo. This is easier on my ears. I'll toss in a couple of other benefits of having 2 separate amps (I have posted this on the KC forum previously): 1) I can just use one amp if the stage is too small 2) I have a compact stereo rig that fits most anywhere 3) If one amp fails, I always have the back-up right there with me When it comes to the house sound, most of the soundmen in my area are not using a "true stereo" PA, so I just send one line to them. When I come across a soundman with true stereo, he gets 2 lines to the PA. Regards, Eric

 

Good points you raise eric - re: redundancy of the two amps (one extra in case 1st one fails), compactness, etc...

 

So, are you saying you use the two KT80S amps as your monitoring system - the two amps just for your stage monitor setup, and then you run one line to the soundman for front-of-house signal? Wow - I wish I played in places that big, that had enough room for that: sometimes I can barely squeeze me + my keys + one of my JBL EON15 G2's in the corner of the stage designated for me...

 

BTW -

Where do you run the 1 line from - a mixer, or straight from one of the two KT80S amps?

 

 

[MP3Chuck]

I always go mono ... but I'm not a lead instrument in my band so I guess I'm in a different situation. No sense running stereo when I get panned off toward the left anyway. Just causes phase problems.

 

Though a guy showed me a trick ... to always run from the "R" output when going mono since (on my Yammys anyway, I'm assuming this happens on other boards) the signal gets summed when running mono from the "L,L/R" out and can cause phasing problems with stereo samples.

[dan88z]

I run mono. Every system we play thru is mono and I don't see the need to run in stereo when I'm the only one who is hearing it that way. I used to run stereo, and it was pretty cool, but for the last few years mono has been easier. I'm running a Leslie and a Barbetta, and it covers what I need nicely.

[GigMan]

Originally posted by MP3Chuck I always go mono ... but I'm not a lead instrument in my band so I guess I'm in a different situation. No sense running stereo when I get panned off toward the left anyway. Just causes phase problems. Though a guy showed me a trick ... to always run from the "R" output when going mono since (on my Yammys anyway, I'm assuming this happens on other boards) the signal gets summed when running mono from the "L,L/R" out and can cause phasing problems with stereo samples.

 

Right -

I've seen this "trick" mentioned before - "...if you must run in mono, use the right output instead of the L/mono/L/R output - which is usually summed + produces phasing, blah blah blah..."

 

But I just don't get it: if the L/R/mono output is summed, then it gives you a combination of the L + R signals together, right? Isn't that what you would want? And if the R output is ONLY the right channel, aren't you missing half the signal? And isn't missing half the signal actually worse than having a summed signal with slight phasing issues?

[MRkeys]

I think a lot depends on what type of gigs you are doing. In a loud guitar band in a bar I think mono usually sits better in the mix. It just cuts better without taking up as much room and is less of a hassle.

 

Years ago I use to think that playing stereo live would be the ultimate, but finally just gave up on the idea. However doing solo or even a small jazz trio would be quite different. I could see stereo working well in that setting.

[The Pro]

I used to use regular PA's in stereo for solo gigs and had a mono keyboard amp for band work, but now that stereo keyboard amps are available I just can't see why NOT to go stereo anymore.

 

Back to the house PA system I mentioned before that I use - I know that nights when I'm not there the other groups change the PA system back from stereo to mono. There is an XM receiver that is used for break music, and I'll come in to setup for my gig and can readily tell when the system is set for mono operation because the XM radio loses some of it's clarity in mono. Changing it back to stereo sounds better. I can't help but think that my keyboards sound better in stereo in the same way.

[GigMan]

Originally posted by The Pro I used to use regular PA's in stereo for solo gigs and had a mono keyboard amp for band work, but now that stereo keyboard amps are available I just can't see why NOT to go stereo anymore. Back to the house PA system I mentioned before that I use - I know that nights when I'm not there the other groups change the PA system back from stereo to mono. There is an XM receiver that is used for break music, and I'll come in to setup for my gig and can readily tell when the system is set for mono operation because the XM radio loses some of it's clarity in mono. Changing it back to stereo sounds better. I can't help but think that my keyboards sound better in stereo in the same way.

 

No doubt that in general, stereo sounds better than mono - if you're in that fabled "sweet spot"

 

But that's my whole reservation about live stereo: most of the audience is NOT in the sweet spot. So what exactly does the crowd on the right hand side hear + what do the left-side folks hear? Certainly not the same thing?

 

Whereas if you run in mono - everyone hears exactly the same thing, no matter what part of the room you're in.

 

[wes-ninja250]

It's no different than listening to a CD in a club. It's not uncommon to have stereo house music!

 

The important thing to remember is to set your instruments up so that losing one speaker doesn't mean you lose the part entirely.

 

I think maybe musicians worry about this too much. My bottom line is -- try it and see if you like it. I always have a friend walking around who can recommend mixer adjustments anyhow.

 

Wes

[The Pro]

I disagree with the "sweet-spot" theory.

 

Unless the room you are playing in has perfect acoustics and has no reflecting surfaces at all (unlikely), then the sound is bouncing off of windows, tables, walls, floors and more. If that sound is mono then you probably do have the same sound bouncing around - but if that sound comes from two separate sources and is not exactly the same sound then you get two different signals bouncing off the surfaces, thus giving you multiple reflections. No matter where you are in the room, with stereo music you may not get a perfect stereo image where you are sitting but each ear will hear something slightly different, thus reducing phase cancellation and giving a "livelier" impression.

 

That's the fallicy with the anti-stereo argument: you don't have to be seated in the perfect middle to benefit from stereo - the room acoustics will take care of that and treat you to a richer sound with stereo than with mono.

 

Of course this is easy enough to prove for yourself - setup in a room for a gig an try your break music in both stereo and mono while walking around the room.

[kikedeolivos]

Mono.

[murftone]

stereo vs mono live ? ........ firstly, I'm a freelance player .... some of my work is on real pianos but at the moment the majority of gigs are in band situations. I mention this because it can be quite different than playing in the one band where you tailor your set-up to that situation and pretty much stick to it for all gigs.

 

also, I'm just using the one board .... a digital piano ... and usually just use the piano, rhodes, hammond organ and clavinet sounds.

 

my rig has got to be flexible and self contained ..... I can't be depending on FOH and coming through foldback. also it's got to have some some grunt in case things get pretty loud. my primary concern is my onstage sound and in smaller venues I don't bother with FOH.

 

I'm using a small stereo P.A. for this purpose ...... a Yammy EMX- 68S stereo powered mixer ..... it's 400 watts per side into 4ohm boxes ..... ( 270 watts into 8ohm). The two amps in it can be bridged for a more powerful mono output.

 

my speakers are a pair of Wharfedale Pro EVP-S10. I have actually replaced the 10" drivers with a couple of JBL MI-10 .... these guys are much better than the wharfy 10". They are 'musical instrument' speakers with a response up to 8khz .... there was a huge improvement in the sound when I dropped these fellas in ..... they combine with the compression driver beautifuly. .... I could actually tinker with the crossover if I liked and raise the X-over point for better results but it's a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" or whatever that saying is

 

if I'm in a larger venue with a stereo PA, the sound guy usually gives me a couple of DI boxes and I just run two lines out into these ....... I just back off my stage volume and remind him not to put me thru the foldback. I'm using a Yammy P90 at the moment and I have the option of running out of it's RCA jacks into the DI boxes ..... this actually works great (the sound guy has to pad the signal down cos it's a bit hot ).

 

if I go thru a mono PA I just use either a left or right line out and hope for the best ...... actually the P90 rhodes, hammond organ and clav sound great in mono but the acoustic piano sounds terrible. In fact, the pianos on the P90 sound very poor in stereo too in my opinion ...... through anything .... not only the rig I have just described to you, and I'm in the process of selling the P90. Ive played my P90 (and the P120 before it) thru all manner of amps/speakers/headphones/monitors and have come to the conclusion that the acoustic piano sounds are not to my taste

 

just to get back on topic ...... there are many times in a band situation (e.g. small stages ... or mono FOH at large venues ) where I think the ideal would be MONO. In my case that would mean just one board with an acceptable mono acoustic piano patch (plus rhodes, organ and clav .... which already exist).

 

if I find a portable dig piano that meets these criteria I could then go the powered speaker route ....... just rock up with piano, speaker, X stand and a bag full of leads and stuff.

 

meanwhile, I'm shopping around for a new board with good stereo piano presets. as soon as I'm happy with my digital piano sound I'll put put my jazz trio back together ... " Trio Los Concious " .... and chase up work. I can add a singer or horn player to this also.

 

Just on the subject of active versus passive speakers ..... I've chosen to go with a powered mixer because I feel that it's flexible and has some definite advantages. Apart from the fact that I've got a decent little 6 channel P.A. ..... it also allows me to try different boxes/drivers and allows me to hire/borrow larger boxes if I need them ..... or simply add more boxes to the wharfies I'm presently using.

 

so " Stereo versu Mono live ? " ...... I guess I'm aiming for gear that gives me BOTH options. ask me again in about three or six months time when I've got a different piano and I may have stronger opinions one way or the other.

 

I welcome any comments on my gear and views in this post. I don't claim to have all the answers to equipment for live gigs and am open to any suggestions.

 

It seems to me that a lot of this 'stereo vesus mono' discussion is purely the result of recent developments in stereo acoustic piano samples .... and the availability of these on portable boards ..... others agree with this ?

 

all for now. Cheers, murf

[The Real MC]

Mono monitors, stereo FOH.

 

That's what I've learned from 25 years of gigging.

 

It's less hassle with mono monitors. Why carry double the speakers and amps when it doesn't add anything to the performance.

 

Stereo FOH makes sense not because keyboards and guitar FX are stereo, but guitars need some processing out front to help the mix. Many times a guitar will conflict with the vocals. One solution is a haas effect on the guitar, a subtle stereo image that gives the vocals (and other instruments) a chance in the PA.

[coyote-1]

Mono, both for monitors and FOH. Less complex, and LESS likelihood of phase cancellation.

[skoyter]

When i am playing in little clubs i prefer mono.I think its better and for the audience but when i play in big stadiums i always ask for two monitors L,R and always but always play in stereo.

[Darkstorm]

Loves stereo. Even if cabs are side by side or stacked one on top of other. Just gives it a little bit richer & fuller sound. Also very nicefor when wants to use panning etc. If runs part of signal to FoH does stereo if they got it.

[MP3Chuck]

Originally posted by GigMan And isn't missing half the signal actually worse than having a summed signal with slight phasing issues?

 

Not necessarily. If you're getting phasing, that means you're losing 1) harmonics and 2) amplitude ... and no boost of volume in the world can make up for that. The summed output might be slightly louder than the R-mono output, but in the end I have found* that the R-mono sounds fuller (or "ballsier" as one guy put it).

 

Keep in mind, though, that my only experience doing this is with the Yammy P120 and S03 ... YMMV, but it would seem to me that in most cases this same "theory" woud apply.

 

 

 

*Hardly authoritativly

[eric]

 

Originally posted by GigMan: So, are you saying you use the two KT80S amps as your monitoring system - the two amps just for your stage monitor setup, and then you run one line to the soundman for front-of-house signal? Wow - I wish I played in places that big, that had enough room for that: sometimes I can barely squeeze me + my keys + one of my JBL EON15 G2's in the corner of the stage designated for me...

 

 

Yes, I use the 2 amps just for monitoring. I send one line from the XLR out of one KT80 for FOH sound. Not all of the places I play are "that big," but we do have a regular circuit of country clubs, plantations, convention centers, outdoor events, etc. and once you have run the gauntlet through these places, you know what will fit and what will not. The only time I find myself going mono is occasionally in small clubs.

 

Regards,

Eric