Stereo vs. Mono - Live?

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by skoyter but when i play in big stadiums i always ask for two monitors L,R and always but always play in stereo.

 

Stadiums? nice to have you on board Elton!

[GigMan]

Originally posted by orangefunk Stadiums? nice to have you on board Elton!

 

 

 

Yeah, what's up wid' dat!? I wonder if skoyter is someone famous or plays with a big name act?

[niacin]

Originally posted by GigMan Right - I've seen this "trick" mentioned before - "...if you must run in mono, use the right output instead of the L/mono/L/R output - which is usually summed + produces phasing, blah blah blah..." But I just don't get it: if the L/R/mono output is summed, then it gives you a combination of the L + R signals together, right? Isn't that what you would want? And if the R output is ONLY the right channel, aren't you missing half the signal? And isn't missing half the signal actually worse than having a summed signal with slight phasing issues?

 

EMU have summed mono out the right side, v.s. everyone else.

Acoustic pianos aside, most of your romplers samples are in mono anyway (Panned tremolo effects aside). I run live in mono because the FOH PA is mono and I want a reasonable replica of what the audience is hearing. And I don't use any acoustic piano cause we're playing funk and the mono CP70 sample sits better.

Kurz and a few others actually provide a mono acoustic piano to solve phase problems in summing stereo samples to a mono output. I think Roland's latest RD offering also has a mono piano. And no you're not missing half the signal if you go out the right (non-summed) channel unless the spread is panned really hard left/right. I have had no phasing problems with my Kawai MP9500 running out the summed out. Yamaha digital pianos seem to be the worst culprits in this regard.

Having said all that, I have plans for an electro-jazz trio working with a vocalist, a horn player and some loops, and I will definitely be running in stereo, but the room will be more intimate and I'm looking for hi-fi quality sound and will be taking my own PA. For the funk gig my kbr-m is just fine.

[skyyder]

There is a very interesting article in pdf format which incidentally I have been reading all day today and there is a section that speaks to whether it's better to go stereo or mono in a live setting.

 

You might want to have a look at the information presented there. It's found under the section entitled PAN on page 19.

 

Here is the link

 

http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/other/paguide.pdf

[niacin]

 

Originally posted by skyyder There is a very interesting article in pdf format which incidentally I have been reading all day today and there is a section that speaks to whether it's better to go stereo or mono in a live setting. You might want to have a look at the information presented there. It's found under the section entitled PAN on page 19. Here is the link http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/other/paguide.pdf

 

 

This is fine from a sound engineer's perspective (and I'm not sure about the reverb issue given we're concerned with live), but from a keyboard player's point of view we have quality stereo piano samples and panned fx that don't sit easily in mono.

[The Pro]

Originally posted by niacin This is fine from a sound engineer's perspective (and I'm not sure about the reverb issue given we're concerned with live), but from a keyboard player's point of view we have quality stereo piano samples and panned fx that don't sit easily in mono.

 

Agreed - this article (one paragraph really) just dismisses stereo outright without any reason given. That's about as intelligent as the one-word "MONO" post here.

 

If that's the way it's done then bands should just run everything through one big speaker stuck in the middle of the stage. Seriously - let's run the guitars, vocals, bass, everything through one big f___king speaker - that's how a lot of bands sound anyway. Let's have mono drums while we're at it - here's the perfect non-stereo drum kit:

 

 

Nobody wants me to have stereo? They can't have it either then. No more spreading the band across the stage - we should line everyone up in a line from the front to the back of the stage according to height. No more home stereos while we're at it - they'll be called "home monos" now. You'll want to upgrade those computer speakers to a 1.1 system of course. It's the day that mono-philiacs everywhere have been waiting for...

[GigMan]

Originally posted by The Pro Agreed - this article (one paragraph really) just dismisses stereo outright without any reason given. That's about as intelligent as the one-word "MONO" post here. If that's the way it's done then bands should just run everything through one big speaker stuck in the middle of the stage. Seriously - let's run the guitars, vocals, bass, everything through one big f___king speaker - that's how a lot of bands sound anyway. Let's have mono drums while we're at it - here's the perfect non-stereo drum kit: Nobody wants me to have stereo? They can't have it either then. No more spreading the band across the stage - we should line everyone up in a line from the front to the back of the stage according to height. No more home stereos while we're at it - they'll be called "home monos" now. You'll want to upgrade those computer speakers to a 1.1 system of course. It's the day that mono-philiacs everywhere have been waiting for...

 

 

...good one, Pro!

[The Pro]

Thanks Gigman. That's a real drumset BTW, made by Yamaha. The bass drum is on the bottom and the snare is on the top although they are mounted in one unit. When I first saw that, I thought about drums being in stereo naturally (except this one of course), and that got me thinking about bands in general - they are all in stereo by their very nature. Whether the FOH is mono or not, some amount of sound is going to be in stereo irregardless. I know that as a one-man-band, I have the power to be truly mono but that would go against the nature of what a band really sounds like.

 

Between the phase cancellation issue, the "sweet-spot" issue, the L/R keyboard outputs, the sound engineers that don't want to bother with designing for stereo when their mono products are selling well, and on and on... I just think this is getting monotonous, pardon the pun. The bottom line is that every musical instrument I own has stereo outputs, and I'm going to use them as they were meant to be used. ^:cool:

[HuskerDude]

Originally posted by The Pro Agreed - this article (one paragraph really) just dismisses stereo outright without any reason given. That's about as intelligent as the one-word "MONO" post here. If that's the way it's done then bands should just run everything through one big speaker stuck in the middle of the stage. Seriously - let's run the guitars, vocals, bass, everything through one big f___king speaker - that's how a lot of bands sound anyway. Let's have mono drums while we're at it - here's the perfect non-stereo drum kit: Nobody wants me to have stereo? They can't have it either then. No more spreading the band across the stage - we should line everyone up in a line from the front to the back of the stage according to height. No more home stereos while we're at it - they'll be called "home monos" now. You'll want to upgrade those computer speakers to a 1.1 system of course. It's the day that mono-philiacs everywhere have been waiting for...

 

I think the greater issue here is that if you're running a lot of stereo effects and sounds, the guy who's standing/dancing in front of the left PA speaker (30 ft. away from the RH speaker) is only hearing half of your parts. And that's IF the FOH is actually running in stereo and not dual summed mono.

[GigMan]

Originally posted by HuskerDude I think the greater issue here is that if you're running a lot of stereo effects and sounds, the guy who's standing/dancing in front of the left PA speaker (30 ft. away from the RH speaker) is only hearing half of your parts. And that's IF the FOH is actually running in stereo and not dual summed mono.

 

HuskerDude -

 

That was my original thought or position on this whole matter, but you need to go back + read ALL the posts on this particular thread - that issue is addressed + addressed satisfactorily, I believe...

[Mal Sellars]

I prefer to play in stereo, and use a KP200-S which is excellent for small venues. Larger gigs I take a line out of the amp into the PA.

To my knowledge the KP200-S is the only true stereo keyboard amp available, and it sure beats lugging a PA to gigs as I used to.

It is the perfect gigging partner to my new RD700SX :-)

 

Mal

[Prog]

DJ's always run stereo. It looks like they may have yet another advantage over all of the mono musicians.

 

When was the last time you had phase issues and couldn't hear an instrument because the CD jukebox was in stereo?

 

These old arguments seem to die hard.

[GigMan]

Originally posted by paostby DJ's always run stereo. It looks like they may have yet another advantage over all of the mono musicians. When was the last time you had phase issues and couldn't hear an instrument because the CD jukebox was in stereo? These old arguments seem to die hard.

 

Umm... I thought the phase issues were created by running in mono, not stereo.

 

Oh, wait - I guess that's the point you're trying to make?

[The Pro]

So Gigman... what was the reason for your digging this issue back up? Are you trying to resolve this subject for your own application or did you just want to watch us slug it out once again?

[GigMan]

Originally posted by The Pro So Gigman... what was the reason for your digging this issue back up? Are you trying to resolve this subject for your own application or did you just want to watch us slug it out once again?

 

Both.

 

Seriously, though -

I do put a lot of thought into the quality of my performance - my playing, my singing, what tunes to pick, what particular gigs/venues I do... well, except that last part - I'm pretty much a gig whore: you pay, I'll play - ha ha!

 

So in addition to trying to improve the quality of - me, the player I've also tried to improve the quality of my rig: I've invested in various pieces of equipment over the years to make the rig better, sound better, more professional, etc... + I love the sound of my JBL EON15 G2's but on some gigs I only bring one of them - like last week I did a jazz duo (piano + sax) thing in an Italian restaurant that actually will turn out to be an every week affair. I only brought the one EON15 G2 + there really was only room for the one, so I ran everything (Ensoniq KS-32 76key weighted 'board, Kurzweil MicroPiano module, Alesis SR16 drum machine, 2 mics.) into my Mackie DFX6 in mono + then ran that into the EON from the Left Main Out. Sounded ok, but I'm guessing with two cabinets it would sound better.

 

That would be a perfect situation for the MotionSound KPS200 I guess, or for two smaller cabinets, like two Barbettas or two of the JBL EON10 G2's maybe...

[murftone]

..... "a bottle of red ..... a bottle of white " ..... sounds like my rig would suit that restaurant .... put the speakers up on poles .... 6 channels .... a dozen reverb/delay/echo to chose from .... optional stereo or mono

 

sounds like you earn your money Gigman ... get there early, setup all that gear, play and sing all the right things .... lots of smiling and head nodding .... finish gig, pack up gear, load into car, go home, unpack gear, collapse in front of t.v.

 

I think the point that comes across with your post is that, if possible, ones gear needs to be flexible to suit the situation .... in your case owning a pair of smaller speakers (JBL EON10 G2) as well as the big guys would be ideal ..... or maybe even INSTEAD of . I dunno .... just thinking out loud.

 

one night I'm playing quiet 'background' music and the next night it's a full on 7 piece band ..... gotta have gear that will do both. sometimes the stage is huge and sometimes you're stuck in a little corner of a restaurant near the kitchen next to the where the waiters/waitresses come in and out

 

last sunday the bandstand was as big as a postage stamp so I set up on the dance floor with my speakers up behind me on the stage with the drums, bass and gtr player ..... didn't phase me (back on topic ) 'cause I'm such a handsome guy who the chicks adore (and some of the guys ) and I like to clown with the audience a bit ......

 

just some ramblings for interested readers ..... Cheers, murf

[GigMan]

Originally posted by murftone ..... "a bottle of red ..... a bottle of white " ..... sounds like my rig would suit that restaurant .... put the speakers up on poles .... 6 channels .... a dozen reverb/delay/echo to chose from .... optional stereo or mono sounds like you earn your money Gigman ... get there early, setup all that gear, play and sing all the right things .... lots of smiling and head nodding .... finish gig, pack up gear, load into car, go home, unpack gear, collapse in front of t.v. I think the point that comes across with your post is that, if possible, ones gear needs to be flexible to suit the situation .... in your case owning a pair of smaller speakers (JBL EON10 G2) as well as the big guys would be ideal ..... or maybe even INSTEAD of . I dunno .... just thinking out loud. one night I'm playing quiet 'background' music and the next night it's a full on 7 piece band ..... gotta have gear that will do both. sometimes the stage is huge and sometimes you're stuck in a little corner of a restaurant near the kitchen next to the where the waiters/waitresses come in and out last sunday the bandstand was as big as a postage stamp so I set up on the dance floor with my speakers up behind me on the stage with the drums, bass and gtr player ..... didn't phase me (back on topic ) 'cause I'm such a handsome guy who the chicks adore (and some of the guys ) and I like to clown with the audience a bit ...... just some ramblings for interested readers ..... Cheers, murf

 

murf, you dawg... you know my whole routine - - are you spying on me... !!

 

And yes, the "in addition to" option (whereby I would add to my EON15 G2's, not replace them) would work well for me, since my gigs run the gamut like your: ranging from solo piano for wedding cocktail hours, to the jazz duo gig in the restaurant, to rock/pop duo stuff where I do keys, vocals and guitar work, to full-blown band settings (wedding band or rock band) to the occasional DJ gig. So I can't give up the EON15 G2's but I could/should supplement them with something else: a pair of EON10 G2's or one of the Motion Sound stereo amps, perhaps.

 

BTW -

I wish I could see you clowning w/the crowd - I'll bet it's a real crack-up!

[Mal Sellars]

hahahah

On a serious note, is the KP200S the only true stereo keyboard amp available?

As I said earlier, I find it perfect for smaller gigs, and run a stereo line out for bigger venues.

I was just wondering if it has any competition?

[acoustictones]

MONO!!! This is only because I never know what type of sound man we'll have, and I don't think most would know what to do with a Stereo signal. It's a lot easier for the sound crew to get a good mix if EVERYBODY is running MONO. I'm also a guitar player, and I also would love to see that run in stereo due to a lot of my effects would sound better, BUT once again, the over all mix is more inportant than any one band members sound. So regardless of what instrument I'm playing that night, I choose to have everything run in MONO.

 

And although I can relate to a few post here that they simply are more INSPIRED to play well if they can hear themselves in stereo...well, this could be a hurdle for some, but what I have done to get over this is to play with other musicians that inspire you, rather than allowing your own SOUND to be a main point of inspuration. I love surrounding myself with musicians that simply blow my mind and push me to play a lot better than I knew I could. It's important to find out where one should FIND their insperation. I find that it's ok to allow my own sound to inspire me in the studio, but I make it a none factor when playing live. I try to only worry about those things that I CAN controll. Everything else matters little.

 

Just another perspective.

[GigMan]

Originally posted by acoustictones MONO!!! This is only because I never know what type of sound man we'll have, and I don't think most would know what to do with a Stereo signal.

 

Umm... why?

 

Here's what you do with a stereo signal: plug the Left cable into the L and plug the Right cable into the R...

 

Really, though - what else is involved?

[Mal Sellars]

 

Originally posted by Mal Sellars [On a serious note, is the KP200S the only true stereo keyboard amp available? I was just wondering if it has any competition?

 

 

Anyone know?

[GigMan]

Originally posted by Mal Sellars Anyone know?

 

 

Only its little brother, the Motion Sound KPS100!

[skyyder]

 

Originally posted by niacin This is fine from a sound engineer's perspective (and I'm not sure about the reverb issue given we're concerned with live), but from a keyboard player's point of view we have quality stereo piano samples and panned fx that don't sit easily in mono.

 

 

Hey Niacin, I have to say I agree with you from that perspective. I have a mono keyboard amp which I use to practice and the MotifES piano sounds horrible through it. I hate it so much that I hook up the MO to my soundblaster speakers which sounds a whole ton way better than the KC.

 

With that said I am definitely in for stereo

 

I however posted that link not because I dont think stereo is better, but really to share the article which someone might find it useful and to add to that if you should read the entire article I don't think they are dismissing stereo setup but actually describing a particular situation which may exist at a particular point.

[Aunt Flo]

We've done it both ways over the years, and although I can definitely appreciate the simplicity of running mono, I prefer stereo. You lose half your sub groups that way which sucks, but it does make a difference for keys (and some guitar). If you play any solo sections that rely heavily on stereo patches, you'll definitely notice it if it is in mono.

 

The sad truth of the fact is as long as you can feel the beat and sorta hear the lyrics, most of the crowd wouldn't know the difference if you were playing out of a phone receiver.

[Roald]

I always play mono, though the signal that goes to the FOH mixer is stereo. It has to do with my mixdesk, but in the past I have tried playing in stereo and it doesn't make a difference to me. It was just more hassle to get everything on stage and wired up. I played in a student funk-soul-party-band and we needed to get the crowd going, so ultimate hifi quality is not key. Playing Hammond with your elbow is...On stage it was so cramped that the hihat would be INSIDE my left ear, the TwinReverb in my other. So, I needed a piercing sound and used a combination of a Fender Bassman for Rhodes, and a Laney Linebacker (no tweeter!) for everything else. . At background gigs, I also played in mono, just for convenience.