What do you use... Balanced or unbalanced cable?

[grumphh]

Ok good and fine, all this info.

Basically i can improve s/n ratio with balanced, correct?

 

Now, how do i find out whether any of my synths actually have "balanced" outputs, when all i can see from the outside are a couple of 1/4 jacks?

(And my Oberheim Manual tells me to use "standard guitar cables" anyway, so i guess that that one doesn't have a balanced out...)

 

Bear in mind that i am completely unskilled in electronics work/diagnostics.

[skijam]

Assume that most synths/keyboards don't have balanced outs. That's #1

 

If there are balanced outs you'll usually see a label on the back panel saying "balanced" or "TRS" (for 1/4" outs). Of course the presence of XLR connectors (rare, at best) are a sure sign.

 

If memory serves, some Emu gear like the Orbit, Phatt, etc. have 1/4" TRS output jacks, but these aren't used to send balanced signals: instead, they're configured to be used as effect send/returns. Using 1/4" TRS cables to connect them to an unbalanced board might actually result in weak or no sound (I forget the exact scheme of all this, so I could be totally wrong on this point). But regardless, I think the Emu TRS outputs are an exception to the rule.

 

And then there's always the owner's manuals... they'll always specify what the output type.

[Prog]

My EMU module is TRS outs. The other jacks are TRS inserts.

 

The Alesis ION is TRS outs.

Kurzweils are.

Line 6 PODs are.

 

Yep, just look in the manual.

[grumphh]

Originally posted by skijam/paostby RTFM

I looked in the manuals, and if you take the Korg DW8000 manual tech specs it just lists the outputs, but mentions nothing else

 

So i guess that in case nothing is mentioned that i am dealing with unbalanced outs?

 

... and in any case, wouldn't balanced be most useful in situations where you have long cable runs?

[Rabid]

You are correct skijam. The Emu modules have TRS outputs and they are not balanced. The left main output is a stereo jack carrying both channels when the right output jack is empty. The Sub 1 and Sub 2 outputs are stereo jacks that can accept mono or stereo cables. With mono cables they work as simple sub outputs. With stereo cables they work as send and returns for routing external effects.

 

Robert

[Geoff Grace]

The type of shielding and plugs used are important as well.

 

My studio is wired with custom-made Canare cable and Neutrik plugs.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[DINpluggedIN]

Originally posted by wheresgrant3 Am I missing something? I personally don't see a HUGE difference in cost between balanced TRS and unbalanced TS Cable. [...] I have never thought of TS cable as a cost savings for me.

If the cable were the only consideration, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. The point is that lots of equipment doesn't have balanced outs or ins. Therefore, in order to use balanced cables, it might require the purchase of DI boxes, etc. or new equipment that has the balanced ins/outs built in. That's where expense becomes a factor.

Originally posted by grumphh So i guess that in case nothing is mentioned that i am dealing with unbalanced outs? ... and in any case, wouldn't balanced be most useful in situations where you have long cable runs?

If no mention is made in the manual, or it isn't otherwise obvious, then you can usually assume unbalanced. Even a TRS jack doesn't necessarily mean an output is balanced; see my previous post about a Korg T3 in this thread.

 

Yes, balanced typically offers greatest benefit with long runs. However, there are certainly circumstances where things such as interference sources and inability to avoid proximity with other cables could make balanced advantageous even with relatively short runs.

 

To a great degree, it comes down to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." and if it is "broke", then find out why and do something about it, if you're so inclined .

[Rabid]

I would think that for keyboard players, the long run would be from the keyboard mixer to the main, not from each keyboard to the keyboard mixer. Unless there is a lot of people running individual lines to the main mixer and not sub-mixing keyboards.

 

Robert

[GigMan]

Originally posted by wheresgrant3 I recently upgraded my submixer kit pictured below. I added a stereo DI Box with a ground lift Previously (and stupidily) I ran all my synths into this submixer using balanced stereo cable. Then I ran my signal (stereo out) to our PA using 30ft unbalanced TS cable. This is where my problems began. Now I take no chances... I run the stereo outs using a balanced cable into the DI box, and XLR out of the DI to the PA mixer. I still get some noise... some white noise if you crank the channels, but for the most part things are pretty silent now.

 

But Grant, I think you've posed this scenario before (you "poser" you! - just kidding) and I thought I looked up the connections on that Yamaha mixer of yours and found that even though there are only 1/4" jacks (no XLR connections) the outputs are still balanced, no? Just like my Mackie DFX6 - which happens to have both 1/4" and XLR outs.

 

If the outputs on the mixer are balanced then you don't really need a DI box, you just need to run TRS cables from the mixer that have a male 1/4" plug on one end (which comes out of your mixer) and a male XLR on the other (which could go into the Main FOH mixer). The beauty of it is, if the cable isn't long enough to make the run, just jack a standard balanced mic. cable into it (male XLR on one end, female XLR on the other) and you've got an instant cable extension!

 

I have sound guys telling me to turn the gain down on the Main Outs on my Mackie, telling me the signal is really hot - WITHOUT the aid of a DI box!

 

 

[Khazul]

I used balanced as far as possible, including unbalanced outs into balanced in - short cold and ground at the unbal out and it gives you alot of the noise rejection of a bablanced cable if connected to a good balanced input.

 

For balanced outs to unbalanced in, I just leave the cold floating. usually this works fine if you have control over output levels, but I have heard of people having majors problems with this with some gear - maybe I have been lucky.

 

Part of the reason for using balanced as much as possible is I wanted to make everything interchangeable at the patchbays which are balanced so I can go insane with bizarre fx chaining etc without caring what kind of inputs and outsput each device int he chain has.

 

I make my own cables as I couldnt find anyone who could supply decent unbalanced balanced cables and adapter boxes are very expensive if you would need alot of them.

 

I dont seem to have any noise problems from the computers, but I am careful about routing of analogue cables vs power and computer cables and do use tin foil shields sometimes to minimise cross talk from digital and power to analog cables.

 

I would say you can get away with all sort of cabling abuse if you ensure a good matched ground level to all of your gear. Doing that should keep induced hum down in the backgound noise floor.

[Khazul]

Originally posted by Rabid I would think that for keyboard players, the long run would be from the keyboard mixer to the main, not from each keyboard to the keyboard mixer. Unless there is a lot of people running individual lines to the main mixer and not sub-mixing keyboards. Robert

 

I dont use a submixer for the keyboard because I also use all of my keyboards as signal processors (vocoder, filters or general sonic abuse in the case of the v-synth), so I run everything to the main patch bays (ins and outs to/from each keyboard).

 

I could use digital connects for some of them, but I just prefer the flexibility to randomly patch fx chains, for eg, v-drum kit through a vocoder into a guitar processor and then onto a v-synths filters and fx. A bit contrived, but you get the idea.

 

Basically I like to treat real hardware the way Propellerhead's Reason software lets you treat its virtual hardware

[wetwareinterface]

on the issue of signal to noise ratio and which is better unbalanced or balanced i'd like to ask a counter quetion that may clear up the issue....

 

whats a brighter light, blue or red?

 

and the answer is the color means diddly to the answer.

 

what type of cable you're running means diddly to the answer.

 

you can shield an unbalanced cable and if it's thicker and has better soldered end points it will outperform a balanced cable of smaller thickness.

 

signal to noise ratio is a matter of interference and the ability of the cable to transmit a signal efficiently. for $40 you're gonna get beter results with unbalanced cable as you can find better thicknes and end soldering for your money. for 400 ' lengths you would be better served by balanced cables due to the amount of outside rmf you'd run into on a cable that length.

 

it depends entirely on your budget, the length you need to run the cable and the enviornmetn it is in. a shielded unbalanced cable in a normal enviorment will give you a great signal to noise ratio as will a good balanced / shielded cable. in an rmf high area you can do okay with unbalanced cables but at lengths over 20' go with balanced.

 

it entirely depends on length of cable run and the enviorment you're working in

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Khazul: Basically I like to treat real hardware the way Propellerhead's Reason software lets you treat its virtual hardware

 

Khazul, do you use virtual balanced or virtual unbalanced cable within Reason?

 

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Prog]

 

Originally posted by wetwareinterface what type of cable you're running means diddly to the answer. you can shield an unbalanced cable and if it's thicker and has better soldered end points it will outperform a balanced cable of smaller thickness. signal to noise ratio is a matter of interference and the ability of the cable to transmit a signal efficiently. for $40 you're gonna get beter results with unbalanced cable as you can find better thicknes and end soldering for your money. for 400 ' lengths you would be better served by balanced cables due to the amount of outside rmf you'd run into on a cable that length.

 

 

Not too good of a comparison. All things must be equal to make a comparison. You didn't mention inherent s/n ratio, either. S/n is not only a matter of interference (how would it be measured for spec sheets? With a prescribed amount of noise? No.). Equal quality of connections is what legitimizes a comparison in this case.

 

Take keyboard A and run it unbalanced into Mixer A. Then run keyboard A balanced into Mixer A. Use comparable quality of connections/cabling. Then you can compare.

 

But, to say a 40 year old Corvette is worse than a brand new Festiva is a silly comparison. A 4-cylinder turbo compared to an 8-cylinder normally aspirated in the same vehicle is a legitimate comparison.