What do you use... Balanced or unbalanced cable?

[wheresgrant3]

What's the difference? A year ago I had no clue.... yet now after suffering through a few gigs that included ground loop hum, noise and other annoying sound glitches I feel like I'm becoming an expert cable conductivity.

 

Now everytime I see someone's key rig I look to see what cable they are using.

 

What are you using? do you know the difference?

[orangefunk]

balanced if I can. most of my instruments only have unbalanced. Indeed I think only the Promega 3 "does".

 

All my mic cables are balanced and so are the ones fromthe mixer to the amp.

 

Cheers

O

[Keyrick]

Balanced on my VK-8 and PC2x because I can, unbalanced on the JV-1010. Balanced cables are so expensive that I make them myself.

 

Rick

[eric]

Grant,

 

I've used only unbalanced cables over 20 years of gigging and have had good luck with them. I think balanced cables only give you a "lift" if your gear has balanced outs along with balanced inputs on the amp. Not too many keyboards and amps can vouch for these specs and I'm not sure if there is any benefit to running balanced cables from an unbalanced source to an unbalanced destination? I'm not much of a cable geek, but it seems I've read about this several times on the internet or in magazines.

 

At one point in my gear history, I had some kind of recurrent issues with "hum" that I could not solve very easily. A lot of times it will increase when you're sharing power with stage lighting or if the venue has crap power to begin with. I used to carry this boutique DI box that had multiple ways to ground lift and it was pretty sweet. I do carry those gray 3-prong down to 2-prong gizmos (four of them) for use when I do come across a bad hum. Usually lifting the ground this way mitigates the problem.

 

I do have a couple of balanced cables I made myself for doing Motion Sound speed switching and so forth - maybe I'll try those out some time.

 

Regards,

Eric

[redlight]

It's not even really possible to use balanced cables with unbalanced outputs unless you run your unbalanced signals into a direct box (DI) and run balanced cables (XLR) from that to their destination (mixer, dedicated FX unit). But if the destination only has unbalanced inputs, then you have to use either XLR-->1/4" adapters (which defeats the purpose of running balanced cables), use another DI to convert balanced to unbalanced.

 

Ground hum can even be had with balanced signals because of differences in the wiring between balanced outputs and/or just the usually unpredictable ground scheme that you'll encounter on different gigs.

 

Even in my studio rig, which hasn't changed for years, occasionally I'll run into a ground loop that crops up for some reason. That's why I have a nice cache of gray ground lifters in this drawer right here. Oh, right, you can't what I'm pointing at.

 

[clusterchord]

most keys n synths go unbalanced, which is not an issue since they are close. except jp8 and mks80 who have dedicated balanced outputs, and some studio stuff like srv reverb etc, all other is digitally connected anyway.

 

i'm thinking of getting a pair or two of decent DI boxes so i can run long cables from keys, that i recently moved to the other side of the room, straight into FF800 pre's without usual unbal. line noise pick up.

[Prog]

Carefully read the owners manuals. Most of my keyboards have balanced outputs (TRS 1/4" jacks).

 

Here's some that do:

 

Alesis Ion

EMU Vintage Keys Pro (most EMU modules)

All Kurzweils

 

A good mixer will have balanced TRS inputs, too (line level, not the XLR mic level inputs).

 

Use them wherever possible. Balanced is always better.

[rickkreuzer]

For me, it depends on the length of the run. If I'm mixing FOH from stage, I'll just use regular 20' instrument cables (unbalanced). If I'm running a longer distance or thru a snake, I'll run those same instrument cables into DI boxes then balanced to my destination.

[wheresgrant3]

I recently upgraded my submixer kit pictured below. I added a stereo DI Box with a ground lift

 

 

Previously (and stupidily) I ran all my synths into this submixer using balanced stereo cable. Then I ran my signal (stereo out) to our PA using 30ft unbalanced TS cable. This is where my problems began. Now I take no chances... I run the stereo outs using a balanced cable into the DI box, and XLR out of the DI to the PA mixer. I still get some noise... some white noise if you crank the channels, but for the most part things are pretty silent now.

[rjx]

I use Unbalanced cables with my Synths, Samplers, Drum Machines.

 

Balanced cables are used for all my pro audio rack gear.

 

I use a DI with my KSS.

 

A 1/4 TS (Unbalanced) to XLR TRS (Balanced) cable is used from my instrument of choice into the DI. Out of the DI I use all XLR unless I have an oldie that only accepts 1/4.

 

I use Mogami Gold cables.

[DINpluggedIN]

 

Originally posted by redlight It's not even really possible to use balanced cables with unbalanced outputs unless [...]

 

Some unbalanced outputs are "compatible" with balanced cables and inputs. For example, my Korg T3, which has unbalanced outs, uses 1/4" TRS jacks with the ring contact grounded. While that won't provide the advantages of a differential signal, it will work with either 2- or 3-conductor cables (TS or TRS plugs).

[Franky]

 

Originally posted by paostby ...Use them wherever possible. Balanced is always better.

 

Hi paostby

Could you explain, why balanced is always better?

Many studio monitors have only XLR inputs, why?

 

regards

Franky

[Rabid]

 

.... Balanced is always better.

 

 

This seems to contridict what I have been reading. Balanced can reduce some problems, but only if those problems occure. If you don't suffer from line noise or hum then moving to balanced will give no improvement. On the other side, balanced can cause possible phase problems since the signal is seperated, then matched up again. So in reality, if you don't suffer any problems using non-balanced lines, you may introduce a problem moving to balanced. In most cases balanced may be better, but not in all cases. I think it was SoS that has a nice article about this online.

 

Robert

[GregCh]

I think balanced cables/balanced audio ins and outs are nice improvement.

 

My Rd700sx and Fantom XR has balanced outs and I appreciate the phase cancellation . I think balanced is the way to go. But you need balanced all the way through the chain for your keyboard to mixer to powered monitor.

[tucktronix]

I've been using all unbalanced cables in my setup at home and gigs, with minimal hum. Occasionally, I would run into problem with picking up radio signals.

[DINpluggedIN]

There seem to be some misconceptions concerning balanced versus unbalanced inputs, outputs and interconnecting cables. Perhaps I can clear up a few of them up.

 

1) Balanced connections are theoretically better. Balanced, due to the two conductors carrying signal of opposite phase and the differential input circuits, tends to be much more immune to interference induced from the outside. If there is interference, most of it would be almost identical on both signal conductors, and therefore cancelled by the balanced input.

 

2) In the real world, line-level unbalanced connections are often quite adequate. If no problem exists with externally-induced noise, unbalanced is usually sufficient.

 

3) Any possible gross impedance mismatches aside, connecting balanced-to-unbalanced or vice versa often only results in a slight loss in level. If external noise is apparent, the changes necessary to make the connection balanced-to-balanced should be made.

 

4) Proper balanced connections shouldn't make anything worse than unbalanced ones.

 

5) Your entire rig doesn't have to be connected either balanced or unbalanced; consistency won't necessarily result in an improvement. Since balanced connections are often more expensive to accomplish than unbalanced ones, they could be used only when there's an actual advantage.

 

I hope that improves the signal-to-noise ratio .

[scarecrowbob]

I'd like to add onw other consideration to the claim that balanced-is-better: price.

 

XLR and TRS cables, DI boxen, and connectors are more expensive, and so in situations where balanced makes no difference the added price makes balanced signals a worse choice.

[Jez]

I use unbalanced, but with DI boxes to do the impedance matching before I get to the PA. The only difference I have really noticed is that with XLR cables I don't have to tear the arse out of the gain... I very rarely get noise problems (until I start playing )

[Franky]

 

Originally posted by DINpluggedIN 1) Balanced connections are theoretically better. Balanced, due to the two conductors carrying signal of opposite phase and the differential input circuits, tends to be much more immune to interference induced from the outside. If there is interference, most of it would be almost identical on both signal conductors, and therefore cancelled by the balanced input. 2) In the real world, line-level unbalanced connections are often quite adequate. If no problem exists with externally-induced noise, unbalanced is usually sufficient. 3) Any possible gross impedance mismatches aside, connecting balanced-to-unbalanced or vice versa often only results in a slight loss in level. If external noise is apparent, the changes necessary to make the connection balanced-to-balanced should be made. 4) Proper balanced connections shouldn't make anything worse than unbalanced ones. 5) Your entire rig doesn't have to be connected either balanced or unbalanced; consistency won't necessarily result in an improvement. Since balanced connections are often more expensive to accomplish than unbalanced ones, they could be used only when there's an actual advantage.

 

Hi DINpluggedIN

Good explanation

Thanks

Franky

[Prog]

Originally posted by DINpluggedIN I hope that improves the signal-to-noise ratio .

 

Almost. What is the inherent s/n ratio comparision of balanced vs unbalanced?

 

Originally posted by Rabid ...balanced can cause possible phase problems since the signal is seperated, then matched up again...

 

Patently untrue. Your source doesn't mention that two differential amps use the same constant current source. If they don't, then it's not a differential amp.

[urbanscallywag]

Originally posted by DINpluggedIN 4) Proper balanced connections shouldn't make anything worse than unbalanced ones.

Rather than proper you should say ideally. The additional electronics of a balanced line can affect the sound versus an unbalanced line. In theory.

[Rabid]

 

Originally posted by paostby .... Your source doesn't mention that two differential amps use the same constant current source. If they don't, then it's not a differential amp.

 

 

Could you explain this further?

 

Robert

[DINpluggedIN]

Originally posted by paostby Almost. What is the inherent s/n ratio comparision of balanced vs unbalanced?

I'm not sure what your point is (although I think you're alluding to one ). If there's little or no interference that might induce common-mode noise, it's not much of an issue. However, a balanced connection employing well-designed stages and high quality cables could make a difference in S/N of 40 dB or so under particularly bad conditions. In that circumstance, by all means one should go with balanced if possible.

 

I suspect that not everyone on this forum is concerned about a few dB of S/N ratio, especially if it's going to mean significant additional expense to realize. Obviously, the pros are more likely to feel the expense is worth it, and studio recording (for example) typically calls for different criteria than on-stage performance in a noisy venue.

[Prog]

We can also reverse the question in a way: What's the advantage of using unbalanced lines? The only answer is cost. Unbalanced was developed to reduce cost for consumer equipment. There is no other advantage.

 

As for the noise factor, noisy environments should take even more precautions to eliminate noise. Why add to the problem (noisy environment) when you can do everything to reduce the problem? "I'm just going to use unbalanced because it's so noisy anyway" doesn't make sense to me. "It's a noisy environment so let's do what we can to eliminate all possibilities" makes sense to me.

 

When seeking comparisons to balanced vs unbalanced on the internet, look for the advantages of each. Unbalanced will invariably be cost-related only.

[wheresgrant3]

Am I missing something? I personally don't see a HUGE difference in cost between balanced TRS and unbalanced TS Cable. I just bought a 15Ft dual end TRS cable Hosa Brand for $10.50 A 20ft TS cable cost me $14. I gig weekly and I go through a fair amount of cable. I have never thought of TS cable as a cost savings for me.