Does the Keyboard section need more than one forum?

[Analog Kid]

 

Originally posted by Dave Bryce I'll ask again...did Craig bring this up somewhere else that I missed? dB

 

 

Guitar Player Feb '96, i think it was

[urbanscallywag]

I never mentioned Craig specifically. Neither did AK.

 

It was talked about around the merge/exodus, quite a long thread as I recall.

 

[Dave Bryce]

 

Originally posted by Mike Conway I think a lot of people WANT a second Keyboard/Synth forum. Why not start an off-shoot of Keyboard Corner? That way, you can retain the spirit of this (KSS) particular forum, yet have the intimacy of a KC type of board. If you can preserve the spirit of KSS, then go ahead and start a second or third forum. As long as KSS remains familiar, another board is just a positive thing.

I'm inclined to agree, and I think that was what Craig was asking about.

 

 

The danger lies in breaking KSS up.

The danger is perceived, not at all real.

 

I think that the problem is that some of you think that adding forums mean that some kind of police squad will then come in here and bust anyone whose posts don't fit in with the new setup. That's just not going to happen - I have neither the time nor the inclination to do things that way.

 

All I'm looking for is the best way to accommodate the most people. IMO, that's what a good moderator is supposed to do.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

 

Originally posted by urbanscallywag I never mentioned Craig specifically. Neither did AK. It was talked about around the merge/exodus, quite a long thread as I recall.

Yeah, it was...

 

However, Craig is the one who started this thread. That being the case, I don't see how this thread is "bringing it up until you get a yes vote". The person who started the thread is the person who brought it up, right?

 

That'd be Craig. Hence my comment/question.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Analog Kid Guitar Player Feb '96, i think it was

Ahhhh.... I missed that issue.

 

dB

[Anderton]

It's interesting to see the reactions. Part of why I said what I did was because of the way SSS has been going. One of the original ideas was for me to start moderating OJ, as it was the Harmony Central equivalent of SSS. Fortunately, several people thought that would be a mistake (I think Dave was one, actually) and in retrospect, they were right.

 

It's interesting that Geoff Grace, who has spent a lot of time on these forums, thinks that SSS has slowed down a bit. Actually, there are many more posts per day then I used to get at MP.com -- it averages about 50% more per day, which is a lot. But it doesn't FEEL that way because I'm spending a lot of time in there moderating -- much more than I did at MP.com -- because frankly, I can now afford to do so. In general, the threads are much longer on average than they were at MP.com, and some of this is because of the influx of HC people offering their opinions -- IMHO, they've raised the level of the forum both in terms of tech facts and sense of humor.

 

There are some days when I'll sign on, see that there are 100 more posts, but the front page looks pretty much the same -- except that the threads that had 1 page now have 3. And these aren't gratuitous posts, by and large; some of the people who've needed help (like what to do when you lose your C: drive!) have been treated to a comprehensive set of answers and suggestions.

 

If I were to divide the Keyboard area, I'd make it simple: A moderated forum, and an unmoderated forum. I believe that people would gravitate toward one or the other (or both) in a natural way; at least, that's what's happened with SSS and OJ.

 

I honestly don't think the character of Dave's forum would change all that much. It would just be more tightly edited and have a somewhat higher "signal-to-noise" ratio.

 

And I want to EMPHASIZE I'm NOT pushing for this. I'm just very, very happy with the way SSS is going, and I think a lot of it is because of the SSS/OJ split that allows each forum to seek its own level. But of course, I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time

 

But the bottom line is: Party on, Garth -- whether in one or two forums!

[Anderton]

 

as long as the MF/GC keeps its mitts off the content of this forum i'm very happy about the way things are looking here.

 

 

FYI -- I just have to put in a good word here for the folks at MF. They have not messed with any of the threads -- they've let people bitch about Guitar Center and praise Sweetwater, and conversely, let people bitch about Sweetwater and praise Guitar Center.

 

They truly realize these forums have no value unless they represent "The voice of the people."

 

As one more example, when I mentioned the idea of "Pro Reviews" (as mentioned in the SSS threads), they made it very clear they didn't care whether I reviewed products MF carried or not.

 

Bottom line is that these people are very smart. They are aware that an impartial site with an impeccable rep will ultimately be FAR more successful than one that tries to be a mouthpiece for a company. Their plans for the future take HC even further into being a neutral, educational resource...that's why I'm here.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Anderton If I were to divide the Keyboard area, I'd make it simple: A moderated forum, and an unmoderated forum. I believe that people would gravitate toward one or the other (or both) in a natural way; at least, that's what's happened with SSS and OJ.

That might be interesting...

 

dB

[BOBA JFET]

That's the best I've heard yet.

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Anderton: It's interesting that Geoff Grace, who has spent a lot of time on these forums, thinks that SSS has slowed down a bit. Actually, there are many more posts per day then I used to get at MP.com -- it averages about 50% more per day, which is a lot. But it doesn't FEEL that way because I'm spending a lot of time in there moderating -- much more than I did at MP.com -- because frankly, I can now afford to do so. In general, the threads are much longer on average than they were at MP.com

 

That makes sense, Craig. Also with your increased presence here, the new SSS HC feels a bit more like our good old days at SSS MP!

 

(Now if we could just get that MP thumbs up smiley over here... )

 

Originally posted by Anderton: If I were to divide the Keyboard area, I'd make it simple: A moderated forum, and an unmoderated forum. I believe that people would gravitate toward one or the other (or both) in a natural way; at least, that's what's happened with SSS and OJ.

 

Of the two forum ideas put forth so far, that one's my favorite as well.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Yoozer]

 

Originally posted by Mike Conway ..... Oh, wait, we already have all those (Open Jam, Sound, Studio & Stage, etc, etc.). Nevermind!

 

If OT posts of KSS are flowers, then Open Jam is a cement mill. Really, it'd be a shame to see rather thoughtful OT posts disappear in a complete truckload of "I haet libruhls lol" and/or "Poop!"

 

The mod/unmod split is a much better idea than that. I'm not saying we can't get along with OJ, it's just that KSS is generally a different crowd.

 

 

I say get rid threads that start with OFF- TOPIC HEADLINES.

 

 

I think a lot of people WANT a second Keyboard/Synth forum.

 

I don't know about how it's now, but we've had polls on this before, and it was a break-even sort of thing.

[suitandtieguy]

i was thinking about _how_ you would divide multiple forums up.

 

how about this:

 

Keys

Synths

Samplers

 

no moderation regarding topic within these three ... general guidelines which could be adhered to or not adhered to ...

 

it would lessen the ADD nature of the forum over the past couple of weeks, give some semblance of separation, and be totally silly to boot.

 

basically the idea is that alot of of us dont' really _want_ topic segregation, but alot of us would like to see threads stay on the first page longer. this would accomplish both tasks.

 

of course, for those who think segregation is good or for those who think topics staying on the first page for more than a day is not importatant there will be some resistance.

 

of course it could backfire into a topic glut on one of the three forums. that would be bad.

 

i suppose some sort of feature which would put new threads in the next forum would be out of the question. i don't know what kind of software this is running on, or wether it could do that. but ... it might.

[Mike Conway]

 

Really, it'd be a shame to see rather thoughtful OT posts disappear

 

 

I can understand that, as I participate on them. I only brought it up because people are trying to think of ways to keep topics on page 1, as long as possible. Like I said, I have no problem with going to page 2 and keeping up with posts. I'd prefer to leave things just as they are.

 

New forums (of a different flavor) don't bother me, as long as this place remains intact. I would certainly visit both.

[Kirumamoru]

 

Originally posted by Mike Conway I say get rid threads that start with OFF- TOPIC HEADLINES. That means Sports, Politics, Dreamcast (though I enjoyed it, it should be in Open Jam), etc.

 

I really disagree with this statement. I want to talk about old video games (or whatever) with the people here in this forum, not the people who are in Open Jam. You spoke of preserving the spirit of KS&S... but the occasional lively and interesting OT discussion is, to my way of thinking, a vital part of that spirit.

 

On the other hand, I have no use for sports or politics... though I realize some people like posting in those threads, and that's part of the "community" issue, too.

 

Kiru

[Rabid]

 

Originally posted by Kirumamoru .... On the other hand, I have no use for sports or politics... though I realize some people like posting in those threads, and that's part of the "community" issue, too. Kiru

 

 

And that is the BIG question. What happens to the sense of community? If things are limited strictly to keyboard talk, then this becomes a bland tech forum. If things are too off topic then why have a keyboard forum?

 

Bottom line, I like the concept of a community of keyboard players. We become friends while discussing Motif vs. Fantom, and that friendship leads to sharing other interests. If keyboard topics fall too fast then people need to get more involved in those discussions. Or, maybe people need new topics to discuss. Something more than

[Rabid]

I might be good to look at KvR and how it has evolved over the years. There are dedicated areas for relevant and off topic discussions. All of them are moderated. It worked very well for a long time, but lately it seems to have grown to a point that it lost a lot of intimacy.

 

There is a difference between popping onto a site and scanning a couple of areas, or popping onto a site and trying to check 12 different forums.

 

Robert

[steadyb]

I can't believe we're having this discussion again.

 

Didn't we just spend about a month and a half to reach the conclusion that we'd try having "just one" keyboard forum for 3 or 4 months, and then possibly revisit the idea?

 

[HuskerDude]

I just don't think there's enough traffic in here to justify splitting up the forum. As a regular poster over in Guitar Jam, this place crawls by comparison. I've never felt that I'm missing threads or not noticing things on here. It seems like splitting it up would be more of a hassle than a help.

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by Rabid   And that is the BIG question. What happens to the sense of community? If things are limited strictly to keyboard talk, then this becomes a bland tech forum. If things are too off topic then why have a keyboard forum?   Bottom line, I like the concept of a community of keyboard players. We become friends while discussing Motif vs. Fantom, and that friendship leads to sharing other interests. If keyboard topics fall too fast then people need to get more involved in those discussions. Or, maybe people need new topics to discuss. Something more than

[Mutineer]

 

Originally posted by Anderton It's interesting to see the reactions. Part of why I said what I did was because of the way SSS has been going. One of the original ideas was for me to start moderating OJ, as it was the Harmony Central equivalent of SSS. Fortunately, several people thought that would be a mistake (I think Dave was one, actually) and in retrospect, they were right. It's interesting that Geoff Grace, who has spent a lot of time on these forums, thinks that SSS has slowed down a bit. Actually, there are many more posts per day then I used to get at MP.com -- it averages about 50% more per day, which is a lot. But it doesn't FEEL that way because I'm spending a lot of time in there moderating -- much more than I did at MP.com -- because frankly, I can now afford to do so. In general, the threads are much longer on average than they were at MP.com, and some of this is because of the influx of HC people offering their opinions -- IMHO, they've raised the level of the forum both in terms of tech facts and sense of humor...

 

You may consider what has happened to Open Jam to be a success from your point of view, but I'm not sure the regulars from the old OJ would entirely share your opinion.

The introduction of the new forums seems to have had the effect of sucking the life-blood out of Open Jam, by drawing away a proportion of its users into more tightly-regulated message-boards, while leaving the other members on OJ with a forum that has lost most of its meaning.

 

OJ's strength was its diversity of topics and people.

And in retrospect it's almost as if a deliberate policy of 'divide and conquer' has been practiced as far as OJ is concerned: intentionally undermining the unity of its membership in order to transfer a select proportion of its members into different forums where the content can be more easily regulated - at the expense of those who have been left behind.

 

As far as I'm aware, a section of the old OJ members have become so irritated by the changes that they have initiated a new forum on their own webspace.

I can't comment on the performance of this forum as I have not visited it, but I hardly think you can call the effect of the forum changes on Open Jam itself an unqualified success.

 

My concern is that the reasons put forward for dividing the KSS forum don't seem to be very well explained.

This leads one to believe that the real reasons for dividing the forum may be something different - perhaps more related to controlling the content of the forums, than making them better for people to post on.

I hope this is not the case, but I think it's reasonable to be concerned about the possible effects of increased commercial pressure on KSS now that HC has been taken over.

 

I notice that Craig's suggestion of a moderated/unmoderated split seems rather reminiscent of what happened on OJ - drawing out the more commercially acceptable people away from KSS into a new forum, while leaving the unwanteds behind in a virtually redundant message-board.

This may be a rather critical assessment of the intention behind the changes, but it seems to be consistent with the results.

 

How would contentious disputes about the Korg Oasys, for example, be treated on the new moderated forum?

Is there not a risk that we could end up with one moderated forum which has credibility, but where commercially contentious issues are suppressed, and another unmoderated forum where anything can be discussed but hardly anyone goes to because the people who previously ensured the balance of common sense there have now been transferred to the moderated message-board and no longer participate in the unmoderated one.

I hope this doesn't sound overly critical, but this is what seems to have happened to Open Jam to a certain extent.

 

I'm not saying there couldn't be good reasons for creating new keys forums, but I'm personally not convinced by the arguments put forward so far.

And I don't think anyone wouldn't want KSS to be emasculated by a change of format, the way that Open Jam appears to have been.

 

I would also add that this thread doesn't really feel so much like a discussion - it feels more like a statement of intent on the part of the moderators.

I get the feeling that KSS will probably be split eventually, whatever the expressed opinions of the majority of people who post here.

 

These are of course just my opinions, and I hope they are received in the spirit in which they're intended - as the observations of an infrequent but interested poster.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Mutineer The introduction of the new forums seems to have had the effect of sucking the life-blood out of Open Jam, by drawing away a proportion of its users into more tightly-regulated message-boards, while leaving the other members on OJ with a forum that has lost most of its meaning. OJ's strength was its diversity of topics and people. And in retrospect it's almost as if a deliberate policy of 'divide and conquer' has been practiced as far as OJ is concerned: intentionally undermining the unity of its membership in order to transfer a select proportion of its members into different forums where the content can be more easily regulated - at the expense of those who have been left behind.

Interesting...

 

My perspective on that would be to ask if any of the people who have left OJ did so because they were forced to do so...?

 

Perhaps SSS just gave them a place that was more in line with the forum experience that they wanted to have...if so, what's wrong with that?

 

My concern is that the reasons put forward for dividing the KSS forum don't seem to be very well explained.

I think I laid my thinking out pretty clearly in my first post in this thread - I tried my best to do so. I also think that Craig made his thoughts pretty clear...

 

This leads one to believe that the real reasons for dividing the forum may be something different - perhaps more related to controlling the content of the forums, than making them better for people to post on.

Actually, the points that I laid out in my first post in this thread are, in fact, exactly what I'm thinking. I'm sorry to hear you doubt that.

 

I hope this is not the case, but I think it's reasonable to be concerned about the possible effects of increased commercial pressure on KSS now that HC has been taken over.

For the record...there is no commercial pressure on KSS - at least, none that has been communicated to me.

 

Sure it can be a little "wild and wooly" sometimes, but that's part of it's charm. I don't feel that it in any way comes near the groove of OJ...

 

I notice that Craig's suggestion of a moderated/unmoderated split seems rather reminiscent of what happened on OJ - drawing out the more commercially acceptable people away from KSS into a new forum, while leaving the unwanteds behind in a virtually redundant message-board. This may be a rather critical assessment of the intention behind the changes, but it seems to be consistent with the results.

That's one perspective, but I don't believe that was the intention.

 

The intention (as I understand it) was basically to give SSS a new home, that's all. If there are people from OJ who find it to be more to their liking than OJ, that's the way it goes. AFAIK, there really is no great conspiracy to undermine OJ here.

 

How would contentious disputes about the Korg Oasys, for example, be treated on the new moderated forum?

The same as any contentious topic is treated - it'd be fine, as long as it didn't go ad hominem, or become unreasonable. I think there are a fair number of people from KSS who feel that the OASYS thing became unreasonable after a while.

 

Is there not a risk that we could end up with one moderated forum which has credibility, but where commercially contentious issues are suppressed, and another unmoderated forum where anything can be discussed but hardly anyone goes to because the people who previously ensured the balance of common sense there have now been transferred to the moderated message-board and no longer participate in the unmoderated one.

I don't think so...

 

Not only do I have no problem with foilks speaking negatively about something they don't like, I encourage it. What I do not encourage is people slamming things without backup - for example, "This keyboard sucks". Instead, I prefer to see "Here's what I don't like about this keyboard, and here's why". The former is an unsubstantiated and uninformative attack, while the latter shares perspective, which benefits the community.

 

Your post here is a perfect example - you've expressed yourself very well, and laid out your concerns in a manner that allows people to understand why you feel the way you do, and for me to be able to address and discuss them.

 

I hope this doesn't sound overly critical, but this is what seems to have happened to Open Jam to a certain extent.

Once again, KSS is not OJ, and I don't think that it's a fair comparison. KSS is much more focused, and I don't believe that setting up a second forum would really disturb it that much. If anything, it might actually serve to remove some elements that some of the folks here find objectionable.

 

I'm not saying there couldn't be good reasons for creating new keys forums, but I'm personally not convinced by the arguments put forward so far. And I don't think anyone wouldn't want KSS to be emasculated by a change of format, the way that Open Jam appears to have been.

I appreciate your perspective, and I understand your concerns. I do not, however, agree that setting up a KC-type forum over here would emasculate KSS - there are way too many folks who like the KSS vibe.

 

Believe it or not, one of my concerns is that the current status quo may be contributing to the erosion of that very vibe.

 

I would also add that this thread doesn't really feel so much like a discussion - it feels more like a statement of intent on the part of the moderators.

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

 

All i can do is to ask that you please allow for the possibility that what you see is, in fact, what you get. If you don't allow for that possibility, I'm not sure there's really anything I can say that would convince you otherwise.

 

I get the feeling that KSS will probably be split eventually, whatever the expressed opinions of the majority of people who post here.

"Spilt" is a somewhat defensive way of looking at it, from my POV. Putting a second forum up next to KSS wouldn't be an attempt to split the forum, it would be to provide a place with a different groove for the people who want that.

 

As a matter of fact, I think the intention is quite the contrary - we're looking for the best ways to grow the community, not erode it.

 

These are of course just my opinions, and I hope they are received in the spirit in which they're intended - as the observations of an infrequent but interested poster.

Indeed.

 

Actually, this has been very helpful to me, as it has allowed me to be able to think through and express some aspects of this subject that have been on my mind about this as well.

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your concerns - I hope that you find my responses to be satisfactory. If not, please feel free to continue the discussion.

 

dB

[Birdienumnum]

Having now read over these four pages and how it evolved, I have to say that KSS has a strong sense of community--as it is, right now. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We are Classic Coke. Remember New Coke? What a waste of time and energy that was. Let's keep our sense of community intact. We have grown, without the need for a split, simply by adding all the fine folks from KB into the mix. Let's keep the mix. Things are as good as they are going to get. It's all about the people, not artificial boundaries. And the people here are wonderful, including our two excellent new moderators.

[RockXtreme]

One question I have is why dont we have a FAQ here?

It would help cut down on some of the clutter.

 

We always get the:

Which board should I buy for Rock/Jazz/etc...

I am new, how do I learn to play

What is a synth and what do I do with it.

What is a good hammond clone

Etal....

 

Having a FAQ may alleviate some of the noise. IMHO

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Birdienumnum We are Classic Coke. Remember New Coke? What a waste of time and energy that was.

Actually, New Coke was a scam to distract people from the fact that they were changing Classic Coke (taking out the sugar and replacing it with high fructose). I hate that...

 

They still have real Coke with sugar in Europe, and it rules. I drink the stuff by the gallon whenever I'm over there...

 

Let's keep our sense of community intact. We have grown, without the need for a split, simply by adding all the fine folks from KB into the mix. Let's keep the mix. Things are as good as they are going to get. It's all about the people, not artificial boundaries.

I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate it; however, the truth of the matter is that we really don't have that many KC folks - most of them didn't come over. The emails and PMs that I've gotten from some of them have indicated that it's because KSS doesn't feel comfortable to them, and I'd like very much for it to feel comfortable to them over here.

 

Surely there must be a way to achieve that without upsetting the KSS groove...it seems to me that an additional forum may be the best way to do that.

 

I'm really not sure why some of you would see this as fracturing the community - as I said above, I'm interested in growing the community, not eroding it. I was brought in here specifically in the hopes of growing the community - not just to preserve it.

 

dB

[Outkaster]

Dave I told you that you can excercise your right to do what you want. I am in favor of two forums. After all no one would talk about it if there was not a problem with how the forum is now. People obviously want a change. You have people of different needs here and they all do not get met. Just an idea.