Scales/modes/tonality

[lindsayward]

Hi (my first post ), I've spent quite a while reading this whole thread, which has been very interesting - thanks.
I don't think anyone clearly and directly answered the following question, so for clarity, I'll add my response. The question was:

Originally posted by raggety i have a modes question. if you are playing C major scale and you then want to play G mixolydian, according to the book i have got, you just start the scale on the fifth note {G} of the C scale now it says that the mixolydian is just a major scale with a b7 note. & this is where i get confused. do I have to Physically change that note myself to a b7 or does starting on the note 'G' automatically sharpen it for me in the scale ?? C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C------ ---------G-A-B-C-D-E-Fb-G-

(As far as I now know, thanks mostly to this thread and a few half-baked attempts at learning this over the years),
G mixolydian is BOTH:
- the G major scale but with a b7, and
- the C major scale starting on G
They share exactly the same notes.
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C------
---------G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-

As people have mentioned, it's probably best to think about it musically as G with a b7, but for beginners it's much easier to see that it's C major starting on G. (So you flatten the 7th if you think about it as G major with a b7, but if you prefer to think of it as C major starting on G, don't flatten the 7th or you're not playing the same notes (C major)).

(How'd I go for my first post?)

[adamsj]

lindsayward,

Good first post! And yes, you're right.

And while axegrinder77 is also correct, I find it easier to simply think this way:

1) It doesn't matter what note you start on, if you play a C scale over a G chord (or if you solo using any position of the C major scale during a song in the key of G) you're playing G Mixolydian.

2) Keep in mind that, while soloing in any mode or using any scale, it is helpful -- preferable, even -- to know where the chord tones are for the specific chord you're playing over. If the band is playing a G chord, your chord tones are G, B, D. If you want to play G Mixolydian, use any position of the C major scale, but center your riffs around those G chord tones.

By this I mean that you'll play those notes (G, B, D) with more frequency and emphasis than any of the other notes in the C major/G Mixo scale. All of the other notes you'll simply want to pass through on your way from one G chord tone to another. This is why those non-G chord notes would be considered "passing tones."

This is a simplification, but the concept works for someone just beginning to understand soloing, especially if they're trying to figure out how to use modes.

A key element in any soloing is to know the chord tones of the chord you're playing over (and change with the chords as the tune progresses) and to know where they are in the scale pattern you're playing.

This sounds more complicated in a thread than it is on the guitar, but you do have to do your homework. Go check out my free lessons on scales at www.BluesQuest.com, under Lessons and Tips. Specifically, learn the seven diatonic scale patterns in the lesson titled "Scales Are Everywhere."

Good luck, and have fun!

[IamOne]

DICK! You're fired!!!

[Stenberg]

Thank you!

Great post.

[paul6string]

Can someone explain why the melodic minor has #6 and #7 only ascending and is natural on the descent?

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by paul6string Can someone explain why the melodic minor has #6 and #7 only ascending and is natural on the descent?

 

 

This goes back several hundred years to the earliest stages of tonal (as opposed to modal) music. In a minor key, the natural minor scale lacks a leading tone (the pitch 1 semitone below the tonic), and thus resolution to the tonic is relatively impossible to do convincingly. So, the harmonic minor scale (a natural minor scale with the 7th degree raised--the leading tone) arose as a means of positively defining the tonic in a cadence (esp. a V-i).

 

However, that left the awkward leap of an augmented 2nd between the 6th and 7th degrees. It was difficult to sing and was considered unmelodic, so the melodic minor scale came into use. The raised 6th of the melodic minor is there to eliminate the augmented 2nd interval, and was generally only used when immediately followed by that raised 7th degree of the harmonic minor scale (ie 'ascending').

 

The descending form was used when NOT going directly to the raised 7th. Also important is that the raised 7th was (for many, many years) ONLY used when it coincided with a dominant harmony cadencing to the i; otherwise, the unraised 7th of the natural minor scale was used.

 

Minor keys are a bit more complicated than their major counterparts; the three main forms of the minor scale are all used frequently, but were always considered part of the same tonality. In other words, if you're in the key of D minor, you're simply in 'D minor', and not 'D natural minor' or 'D melodic minor' or 'D harmonic minor'.

[lindsayward]

Great explanation on the minor scales!

Back to modes (if we may):

I tried to start memorising the "specifically modal chord changes" that Fusion58 mentioned (see post on page 3 of this thread): e.g.

Dorian: Imi to IV7 (or IVMA) Example: Gmi7 to C7. Play the G Dorian scale over this progression.

But for ALL of these changes and examples, this mode is also just the key of the chords given. E.g. Gm7 and C7 fit into the key of F major: Gm7 is 2(m7), C7 is 5(dominant 7), and G Dorian has the same notes as F major scale... (same thing for every example).
So, for me this doesn't motivate modes, since it's just a regular key thing (play the major scale of the key the chords are in), and the modes here are just another name for the same notes.

Can someone please please provide some examples where I can't just use the major scale of the key and modes really help (preferably nothing too jazzy, although I love jazz it's not as common for me and most guitarists)?
I would love a few examples, that are long enough to be meaningful, that I can practise with and compare with major scale based soloing.
Thanks in advance!

[markmakingmusic]

And finally, the Locrian doesn't sound like either, its diminshed. It starts from the 7th note of the major scale, and suprise, the VII chord is also diminished.

 

 

The corresponding chord would be HALF diminished though...don't get diminished and half diminished mixed up.

[puppets_dream]

what do you guys think, when learning modes shoul;d one learn couple of them and then transpose them as needed to a diferent keys or learn all. both ways has their benefits...

[markmakingmusic]

I think that what a lot of people don't understand, is that modes can be quite simple to understand. Many method books try to teach musicians the complicated way of understanding modes, such as "learning a few modes and transposing them to different keys." Let's take C major for example, since there are no sharps or flats.

The key to understanding the simplicity of modes is that all scales are simply a pattern of whole and half steps. ALL major scales happen to be comprised of the following pattern of whole and half steps:

C Major:
W, W, H, W, W, W, H
C D E F G A B

G Major:
W W H W W W H
G A B C D E F#

So rather than thinking of modes as seperate scales altogether, think of them in terms of their parent scale.

For instance, D dorian (also a natural minor scale with a NATURAL 6) is related to C Major in that it is the same group of notes, just a different pattern of half and whole steps...check it out

C D E F G A B (Major; Ionian mode)
D E F G A B C (Dorian)

Analyze the dorian mode and you'll see that it is the same scale as C Major, but starting on a different note, hence having a different pattern of whole and half steps...W H W W W H W...therefore it is also a natural minor scale with a natural 6 instead of the flat 6...

The third mode is phrygian...The "parent" scale of E phrygian is C major:

C D E F G A B (Major; Ionian)
E F G A B C D (Phrygian)

And so on: Lydian is the same group of notes, beginning on F (also notice that the Lydian sound is major with a raised 4th)...etc. etc.

I would recommend to learn your major scales backwards and forwards and to UNDERSTAND the theory behind the modes and what their function is. Practice the modes while relating them to their parent major scales rather than actually thinking of each mode as a separate entity.

Thats all for now...I grow weary

If you have questions (I try to be as clear as possible at midnight ), let me know. I'm happy to help.

[markmakingmusic]

This goes back several hundred years to the earliest stages of tonal (as opposed to modal) music. In a minor key, the natural minor scale lacks a leading tone (the pitch 1 semitone below the tonic), and thus resolution to the tonic is relatively impossible to do convincingly. So, the harmonic minor scale (a natural minor scale with the 7th degree raised--the leading tone) arose as a means of positively defining the tonic in a cadence (esp. a V-i). However, that left the awkward leap of an augmented 2nd between the 6th and 7th degrees. It was difficult to sing and was considered unmelodic, so the melodic minor scale came into use. The raised 6th of the melodic minor is there to eliminate the augmented 2nd interval, and was generally only used when immediately followed by that raised 7th degree of the harmonic minor scale (ie 'ascending'). The descending form was used when NOT going directly to the raised 7th. Also important is that the raised 7th was (for many, many years) ONLY used when it coincided with a dominant harmony cadencing to the i; otherwise, the unraised 7th of the natural minor scale was used. Minor keys are a bit more complicated than their major counterparts; the three main forms of the minor scale are all used frequently, but were always considered part of the same tonality. In other words, if you're in the key of D minor, you're simply in 'D minor', and not 'D natural minor' or 'D melodic minor' or 'D harmonic minor'.

Great explanation man!

Of course, to the lazy jazzers out there *clears throat* Melodic minor is basically a Major scale with a lowered third

[progguitar]

This is what has really {censored}ed up my learning over the years.


A long time ago, once I realized that the playing the a minor scale was the same as playing the C major scale only starting on a different note, I just quit thinking about modes and started just thinking in relation to the key.

You tell me what key a song is in, and I can blow over it all day long. Start telling me modes, I 'll ask you to tell me the key.


And when you start saying flat the third and seventh for blah minor, I'm assuming that you're basing that on the stated intervals for a major chord.

Why bother? I just know what chords are minor, major and diminished in a key according to what the key is. I don't think about their relation to the intervals in a major chord and modify them.

I guess I'm way more interval based than some (not saying that is good or bad) and base my alterations on changing the intervals from a whole step to a half step, or a step and a half, etc...

I don't know if this puts me ahead of the curve or behind it. Definitely behind it when discussing.

I actually find a lot of ethnic (at least to western thinking) music that use a lot of step and a half intervals easier to think of, because it's just based on the intervals between the notes and not a "mode", although I guess you could call it that.

So, the confusion remains intact. Glad to know some things in life are constant.

[Tarv]

Originally posted by progguitar This is what has really {censored}ed up my learning over the years. A long time ago, once I realized that the playing the a minor scale was the same as playing the C major scale only starting on a different note, I just quit thinking about modes and started just thinking in relation to the key. You tell me what key a song is in, and I can blow over it all day long. Start telling me modes, I 'll ask you to tell me the key. And when you start saying flat the third and seventh for blah minor, I'm assuming that you're basing that on the stated intervals for a major chord. Why bother? I just know what chords are minor, major and diminished in a key according to what the key is. I don't think about their relation to the intervals in a major chord and modify them. I guess I'm way more interval based than some (not saying that is good or bad) and base my alterations on changing the intervals from a whole step to a half step, or a step and a half, etc... I don't know if this puts me ahead of the curve or behind it. Definitely behind it when discussing. I actually find a lot of ethnic (at least to western thinking) music that use a lot of step and a half intervals easier to think of, because it's just based on the intervals between the notes and not a "mode", although I guess you could call it that. So, the confusion remains intact. Glad to know some things in life are constant.

I Thought of theory and played the same way as you for a the past couple of years.. But the aproach of thinking in Key's doesnt work for a lot of Jazz....

In order to play convincingly in a Lot of Jazz standards (especialy bebop) you need to think in terms of chords. And alway's know where your 3rd and 7th are in each chord to make strong voice leading resolution.

[Leif Lederhosen]

Page 4 rules

[lesser creator]

Exellent thread!!!

...but one question remined...

So, Ionian (major scale) has next steps:
whole,whole, half, whole, whole,whole, half

Dorian:
whole, half, whole, whole,whole, half, whole

...and so on, but...

Blues scale:
whole'n'half, whole, half, half, whole'n'half, whole

So what a hell IS blues skale. Lot of guitarists use it (I do allso), but I don't still know what it is. It has flat third... is it some kind of minor skale?

[lesser creator]

SCALE, not skale!!!!!

sorry:D

[Poparad]

Originally posted by lesser creator So what a hell IS blues skale. Lot of guitarists use it (I do allso), but I don't still know what it is. It has flat third... is it some kind of minor skale?

 

 

 

It can be a minor scale, but it can be something else too. The blues scale is just the minor pentatonic scale with one added chromatic passing note (the #4/b5).

 

You can use the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale where you would normally use a minor scale.

 

You can also use it on dominant 7th chords such as in the blues (hence "blues scale"). Even though dominant 7th chords are built on a major triad, the blues scale still works. The dominant 7th chord is a tense chord, and you can get away with using dissonant notes on it. This would not work on other major chords or major7 chords, just dominant 7th chords.

 

In this case, the b3 of the blues scale is really a #9, in terms of how it works with the chord. The resulting sound is a dominant 7(#9) chord (Root, 3rd, 5th, b7, #9), which is fairly common in rock music (ex: "Foxy Lady"). The major third is often added when soloing by bending the #9 up one fret to the major 3rd of the chord.

[Orr Didi]

Opps... replied to something on page 4 and havn't seen that it goes to 9.. newbie thing

[markmakingmusic]

It can be a minor scale, but it can be something else too. The blues scale is just the minor pentatonic scale with one added chromatic passing note (the #4/b5). You can use the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale where you would normally use a minor scale. You can also use it on dominant 7th chords such as in the blues (hence "blues scale"). Even though dominant 7th chords are built on a major triad, the blues scale still works. The dominant 7th chord is a tense chord, and you can get away with using dissonant notes on it. This would not work on other major chords or major7 chords, just dominant 7th chords. In this case, the b3 of the blues scale is really a #9, in terms of how it works with the chord. The resulting sound is a dominant 7(#9) chord (Root, 3rd, 5th, b7, #9), which is fairly common in rock music (ex: "Foxy Lady"). The major third is often added when soloing by bending the #9 up one fret to the major 3rd of the chord.

 

 

The #4/b5 note that is added is what I like to call the "mysterious blue note." It really cannot be explained in our western theory as to why it sounds so good over minor or dominant 7th chords. It just does...

[waveman]

I am just adding my Scales/Modes/Chords chart to this thread. Page 1 is the basic chord chart with 12 string whole note representation...hope you can figure out the sharps and flats from there. Page 2 is the tonality/scale/mode chart which basic chord positions can be derived from as well.

[markmakingmusic]

Waveman, the first page has one error that I noticed. Diminished chord is actually 1, b3, b5, and bb7...Half diminished is b7...
nice chart!

[LightningFast]

Maybe someone could spell out some simple exercises to help get familiar with using modes?

I know the 7 modes. Basically derived from the major scale. That is also the way I think of the modes, in terms of the major scale they are derived from. I don't think about what mode of C i'm playing. I merely think C major scale.

So, what are some examples to use for practicing with the I, IV, V chord progression, then, throw in the ii, iii, vi, and the diminished 7th. Depending on the arrangement of chords, when should we use which scale. It would be helpful if the major scale was stated and not the modal form.

Next, with building on the above, what are some of the unusual chords that usually come up in such chord arrangements that are worth noting and what scale/mode should be used?

Basically, give me something to practice with to start to hear when to change from one major scale to the next. For example,

C / / / | / / / / | G / / / | / / / / | F / / / | C / / / | G / / / | / / / / |
Am / / / | F / / / | C / / / | G / / / |
Em / / / | / / / / | G / / / | / / / / |

I've actually put 3 rythms: C,G,F,C,G then Am,F,C,G and Em, G. Each should repeat a few times before going to the next. I didn't include the minor 2nd. So, what scales and when?

[Poparad]

Originally posted by LightningFast Maybe someone could spell out some simple exercises to help get familiar with using modes? I know the 7 modes. Basically derived from the major scale. That is also the way I think of the modes, in terms of the major scale they are derived from. I don't think about what mode of C i'm playing. I merely think C major scale.

 

 

 

Modes are when the major scale is focused around a chord in the key that is not the I chord. Modes allow you to rearrange the scale around this new tonic chord. For example, if a progression revolved around Dm using the notes of the C major scale, it would be best to think of it as D dorian, to ensure that you resolve to the notes of a D minor triad and not the notes of a C major triad. You shouldn't still be simply thinking of this as the C major scale as you are missing the entire point of the mode: to take something other than C major and make it the tonic.

 

 

 

 

So, what are some examples to use for practicing with the I, IV, V chord progression, then, throw in the ii, iii, vi, and the diminished 7th. Depending on the arrangement of chords, when should we use which scale. It would be helpful if the major scale was stated and not the modal form. Basically, give me something to practice with to start to hear when to change from one major scale to the next. For example,

 

 

The example you posted is a progression that is still simply in a major key. The I chord is still the chord in which everything resolves to. Modes work by choosing a different chord in the key as the 'home' chord.

 

The example you posted has no scale changes or mode shifts or anything. It is simply in the key of C major.

 

Each mode is directly tied to a specific chord from the major scale. For this reason, it is important to think of each mode as being its own mode, and not all being the major scale. While yes, they are all the same notes, they each function in a very different way, so it is important to treat each one differently. Lumping them all together as being one major scale ignores the fact that they each have their different sounds and uses.

 

 

Next, with building on the above, what are some of the unusual chords that usually come up in such chord arrangements that are worth noting and what scale/mode should be used?

 

 

 

Modes create no more unusual chords than the major scale does. The only the different is that when a progression is modal, a chord other than the I chord of the major scale is being used as the tonic chord.

 

 

 

Here are the seven modes and the seven chords they are each tied to, written in the key of C for example:

 

I - C Ionian - C major (this works exactly the same way as the C major scale)

ii - D Dorian - D minor

iii - E phrygian - E minor

IV - F lydian - F major

V - G mixolydian - G major

vi - A aeolian - A minor

vii

[LightningFast]

Originally posted by Poparad It is important with each mode to treat the new tonic chord as the focus of the scale. Even though all of these use the notes of the C major scale, rethink each mode with the notes of the new tonic chord as being '1 3 5.' For example, in D dorian, think of the notes D, F, and A, as being the new 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes of the scale. This will ensure that you resolve your melodies back to notes of the tonic chord, and not notes of the C major chord.

 

 

Everything up to and including this paragraph I think I have master fairly well. Basically, i've learned by ear that every note in C major will fit, just that if I stop on any random note in C, I've learned that if it doesn't resolve the way I want, I just go to another note in the scale until it resolve the way I want. In other words, I can do anything I want with C major over the chords you provided and make it sound good. However the way you've stated it has sparked some inspiration that will help me create better illusions of change by focusing on the scale notes of the chords.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Poparad You can also shift modes in a chord progression by changing to modes from other keys. | Dm7 (D dorian) | Dm7 | | Dbmaj7 (Db lydian) | Dbmaj7 | | Cm7 (C dorian) | Cm7 | | Abmaj7 (Ab Ionian) | Abmaj7 | | A7 (A phrygian dominant) | A7 |

 

 

This is were you kill me, and were I need to sharpen my skills: changing to modes in different keys. When I played the above chords, I found that it was easy to sing (improvise). My personal selection of scales (by ear) went ok, but somewhat shaky.

 

What are some simplistic examples of shifting modes in a C major progression? Is this even the right question?

[Poparad]

Originally posted by LightningFast Everything up to and including this paragraph I think I have master fairly well. Basically, i've learned by ear that every note in C major will fit, just that if I stop on any random note in C, I've learned that if it doesn't resolve the way I want, I just go to another note in the scale until it resolve the way I want. In other words, I can do anything I want with C major over the chords you provided and make it sound good. However the way you've stated it has sparked some inspiration that will help me create better illusions of change by focusing on the scale notes of the chords.

 

 

What you're hearing is pretty much what I'm saying. If you are in the key of C, and the current chord you are playing over is a C major chord, you'll probably find that 99.9% of those notes that your ear wants to resolve to are C, E, and G, which are the notes of a C major chord. If that progression moves onto an F major chord, you will probably be hearing F, A, and C as the notes to resolve to, which again, are the notes of an F major chord.

 

 

When you deal with modes, it's much the same thing. What changes with modes as opposed to a normal major or minor chord progression is that a different chord is being used as the tonic chord which the entire progression resolves to. Something in D dorian, which could be as simple as just a D minor chord, will be focused around the tonic of D dorian: D minor. Even though it contains all the notes of the C major scale, a C major chord may be nowhere to be found.

 

 

 

This is were you kill me, and were I need to sharpen my skills: changing to modes in different keys. When I played the above chords, I found that it was easy to sing (improvise). My personal selection of scales (by ear) went ok, but somewhat shaky. What are some simplistic examples of shifting modes in a C major progression? Is this even the right question?

 

 

Not exactly the right quesiton. A C major progression implies that the progression is diatonic to C major (it fits entirely into the C major scale). It also implies that the C major chord is the tonic, and for the most part, modes use anything but the I chord of the major key (C major in the key of C) as the tonic.

 

 

Changing modes 99% of the time involves changing keys too. The fact that some of the notes are actually changing by doing this helps establish to the listener that the mode has actually changed. You try to simply change from one mode of C major to another, it's very hard to make it effectively work, because none of the notes have changes, although the chord has, so it can kind of work sometimes, but chromatic shifts are by far easier.

 

 

Keep it simple first, using some of the basic modal examples I posted earlier until you get the idea in your hands and in your ears, and have a better understanding of how it works.