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Scales/modes/tonality


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you forgot to mention that the 6 and 7 change in melodic minor between assending and decending.

 

ascending

1 2 3b 4 5 6 7 1

 

descending

1 2 3b 4 5 6b 7b 1

 

Notice that the descending is natural

 

Furthermore, I think that it is important that there are a lot of other notes (bends) on stringed insturment, and assuming that everyone in here plays guitar those are the notes that give a pice of music some livelieness.

 

Also it is important to realize that the intonation of most insturments including guitar, and piano are liniar, and a bit of a compromise to make things a little simpler. Most scales that sounds natural are picked out of the overtone series. Unfortunately if you tune a piano perfectly to the overtone series (also called just tuinig) it will sound great in one 1 key, good in another key, and progressivly worse as you work your way backwards through the circle of fifths.

 

If you pick some harmonics off of the 12th 7th and 5 fret with your tuner on you will notice that the tuning of the notes appear natural. If you try the other frets you will notice that many do not register perfectly with a chromatic tuner. This is because the chromatic scale is not a harmonicly derived scale, and the major scale, and all of its modes are based on it. all of the even harmonics are octaves of some other interval, unless they are a square then they are an octave of the root. all of the odd harmonics boil down to some sort of smaller interval. the lower odd harmonics constitute the more harmonicly pleasing (and distrotion frienldly intervals)

3rd harmonic= perfect 5th

5th harmonic= major 3rd (slightly flatter than linear tuning)

7th harmonic= minor 7th (very flat, and isnt really used much in western music, with the exception of some blues bends)

9th harmonic= 2nd (note 3x3 it is a perfect 5th above a perfect 5th non primes work in an additive fashion)

11th harmonic= slightly sharp 4th (this is where the overtone series starts to get a little bit scary when you hit bigger prime numbers you tend to have a more disonant interval)

13th harmonic= major 6th slightly flat (there are lots of good notes between the major 6th and minor 7th)

 

The higher order non prime harmonics tend to be more and more dissonant, but they are all there at some level in every not you play. Harmonics are the reason that a clarinet sounds different than a trumpet. each note is a sort of harmonic chord in a way unless you are playing a sine wave synthesizer.

 

another note, as you may have noticed that higher order harmonics tend not to work as well with distortion.

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"We can also construct modes from the melodic minor and harmonic minor scales by the same process, but these do not occur nearly as often as the ones above, so we can safely omit them."

 

Not if you want to play the harmonies and melodic shapes of Herbie Hancock, John Scofield, and Mike Stern. They play the modes from ascending Melodic Minor often.

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Originally posted by show_no_mercy



Actually, a Cm9 chord has a D in it, not a Db. A Cmb9 chord has a Db in it.

 

 

I thought about that, but no, I don't think that's correct.

 

If the seventh isn't explicitly mentioned, then the seventh chord is always assumed to be a dominant seventh.

 

Thus Cm9 = Cb9 is a C dominant 7th with a minor 9th.

 

Cmb9 is a C dominant 7th with a diminished 9th.

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Anomandaris, I think I disagree with you about chord naming, although we may simply be coming from different backgrounds... :)

 

I noticed you seem to be suggesting 'minor 9th' and 'diminished 9th' are different notes?? To me, they're both just a 'b9' (I think this terminology is more straightforward, even though it does lose some information about tonality).

 

I think the important thing about naming chords with upper extensions is to convey the family that it belongs to (which is almost always major 7th, dominant 7th, or minor 7th). This is easy: the chord starts out with Cmaj7, C7, or Cm7 respectively.

In these cases, there are two assumptions:

The triad is always assumed to be major, unless stated otherwise (by 'm').

The seventh is always assumed to be flattened, unless stated otherwise (by 'maj'). (Note that this means 'maj' refers to the tonality of the 7th, not of the triad).

 

If you're simply adding unaltered upper extensions (in this case a 9), then you can replace the '7' with the uppermost extension.

For example...

Cmaj9 really means Cmaj7 with a 9th added, i.e. Cmaj9 = 1 3 5 7 9.

C9 really means C7 with a 9th added, i.e. C9 = 1 3 5 b7 9

Cm9 really means Cm7 with a 9th added, i.e. Cm9 = 1 b3 5 b7 9.

 

If you're adding altered extensions (or are altering the 5th), you add it to the end of the full 7th name.

For example...

If I wanted a major 7th chord with a b9, I'd write Cmaj7b9 = 1 3 5 7 b9.

If I wanted a dominant 7th chord with a b9, I'd write C7b9 = 1 3 5 b7 b9.

If I wanted a minor 7th chord with a b9, I'd write Cm7b9 = 1 b3 5 b7 b9.

 

This way, the tonality of the triad is clear (it's always major unless there's an 'm'), the tonality of the 7th is clear (it's always a b7 unless there's a 'maj' after the note name), and the tonality of the 9th is clear (in the top examples it's a '9', in the last examples it's a 'b9').

 

Anyway, this is getting longer and sounding more complicated than it needs to be... If you get a chance Anomandaris, let me know what you think.

Neilsonite

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Originally posted by Anomandaris

Nielsonite, your system is quite logical. Perhaps it is, as you say, just different backgrounds.


In any case, I think this just serves to show how messy nomenclature is.

 

 

Dude you are all wet.

The nomenclature is not messy to anyone who understands it.

 

Go back to school.

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Originally posted by Anomandaris



I thought about that, but no, I don't think that's correct.


If the seventh isn't explicitly mentioned, then the seventh chord is
always
assumed to be a dominant seventh.


Thus Cm9 = Cb9 is a C dominant 7th with a minor 9th.


Cmb9 is a C dominant 7th with a diminished 9th.

 

 

I'd have to disagree.

 

When you have a number in a chord, like 9, it implies the lower notes are all there. A C9 chord has R 3 5 b7, a C11 chord has R 3 5 b7 9 11, and C13 has R 3 5 b7 9 11 and 13.

 

In the case of Cm9, it means R 3 5 b7 9. Intervals are never named in chord names, only scale degrees are. So a Cm9 chord means you have a Cm7 chord with the 9th scale degree as the highest tension. To alter that you have to use the 'b' or '#'.

 

Then, the chord is then Cm7b9. This is where I think things were getting confused. When you alter the 9, you have to pick the next lowest number to name the chord. In this case it's the seventh, so it's Cm7b9. Same would be true for a C11 chord with a raised 11th. The next lowest number is the 9, so it becomes C9#11.

 

If you're just talking about adding a 9th to a Cm triad, then you have to use the 'add' in the chord, i.e. Cmadd9, or Cmaddb9 if you want.

 

 

I just wanted to add this as I see Cm9 all the time on jazz charts and it never means 'b9'.

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Originally posted by Neilsonite

Anomandaris, I think I disagree with you about chord naming, although we may simply be coming from different backgrounds...
:)

I noticed you seem to be suggesting 'minor 9th' and 'diminished 9th' are different notes?? To me, they're both just a 'b9' (I think this terminology is more straightforward, even though it does lose some information about tonality).


I think the important thing about naming chords with upper extensions is to convey the family that it belongs to (which is almost always major 7th, dominant 7th, or minor 7th). This is easy: the chord starts out with Cmaj7, C7, or Cm7 respectively.

In these cases, there are two assumptions:

The triad is always assumed to be major, unless stated otherwise (by 'm').

The seventh is always assumed to be flattened, unless stated otherwise (by 'maj'). (Note that this means 'maj' refers to the tonality of the 7th, not of the triad).


If you're simply adding unaltered upper extensions (in this case a 9), then you can replace the '7' with the uppermost extension.

For example...

Cmaj9 really means Cmaj7 with a 9th added, i.e. Cmaj9 = 1 3 5 7 9.

C9 really means C7 with a 9th added, i.e. C9 = 1 3 5 b7 9

Cm9 really means Cm7 with a 9th added, i.e. Cm9 = 1 b3 5 b7 9.


If you're adding altered extensions (or are altering the 5th), you add it to the end of the full 7th name.

For example...

If I wanted a major 7th chord with a b9, I'd write Cmaj7b9 = 1 3 5 7 b9.

If I wanted a dominant 7th chord with a b9, I'd write C7b9 = 1 3 5 b7 b9.

If I wanted a minor 7th chord with a b9, I'd write Cm7b9 = 1 b3 5 b7 b9.


This way, the tonality of the triad is clear (it's always major unless there's an 'm'), the tonality of the 7th is clear (it's always a b7 unless there's a 'maj' after the note name), and the tonality of the 9th is clear (in the top examples it's a '9', in the last examples it's a 'b9').


Anyway, this is getting longer and sounding more complicated than it needs to be... If you get a chance Anomandaris, let me know what you think.

Neilsonite

 

This is exact, from my jazz guitar schooling. But there are many ways to describe chords, some just seem clearer to certain people.

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The two most important things to do when learning modes:

 

#1. Treat each mode as a scale/entity unto itself (i.e., don't just think of a mode in relation to its parent scale, e.g., D Dorian = C Ionian, etc.)

 

Learn which specific note(s) give each mode its characteristic sound or "flavor," e.g., for the Lydian mode it's the #4(#11), for the Dorian mode it's the natural 6th, etc.

 

#2. Learn to recognize specific modal chord progressions.

 

Examples:

 

IMA -- IIMA = Lydian. For example, the progression E -- F#/E is a Lydian progression. Use the Lydian mode over this progression. Note: F#/E is an F# chord (triad) with 'E' in the bass. Play a first-position E chord and then slide the chord up two frets while keeping the open (low) E string as the lowest note in the chord to hear a typical Lydian chord progression.

 

Imi -- IVMA (or IV7) = Dorian (Example: Gmi7 to C9 is a Dorian progression.)

BTW, these are the verse chords to Santana's "Evil Ways."

 

IMA (or I7) to bVIIMA = Mixolydian

Example: E to D (or E7 to D)

 

Also: IMA (or I7) to Vmi, e.g., A7 to Emi

 

Phrygian = Imi -- bIIMA (e.g., Emi to F)

 

 

 

:cool:

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I do it totally different. I think of the modes and scales as "Keys"...So If I am playing an A7 type vamp...I want to tap into some A dorion.....well A Dorian is the second mode of the gmajor scale.....so I just play in the key of G major ( all the g major scale patterns/modes all over the neck) Over the A7 vamp.....instant dorion flavor. Anyone else do it like this....I found thinking in keys really broke me out of the patterns and opened up the fretboard for me....of course your ear gets used it it...I gotta slide back into A minor/Cmajor scales.....

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More reasons to treat each mode as an entity unto itself and not just think of modes in relation to their parent scales:

 

1) The C Ionian scale and the D Dorian scale contain the same notes. However, these two scales do not share the same intervals/orders of whole steps and half steps.

 

Ionian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

 

Dorian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7

 

2) Knowing which note(s) give each mode its characteristic sound allows you to tweak just one or two notes when you want to generate the sound of a given mode while soloing/improvising. This way of thinking allows you to simplify your approach and requires less thought/analysis on your part while performing.

 

For example, the Lydian scale differs from the Ionian scale by just one note: Lydian has a #4(#11) and Ionian contains a perfect 4th(11th).

 

Hence, in order to change your major scale (Ionian) lick into a Lydian lick, all you have to do is sharp the 11ths.

 

Similarly, you can transform your minor pentatonic licks into Mixolydian licks by simply raising the flatted third of the pentatonic lick in question to a major third. (Adding a major sixth to the lick helps too.)

 

:cool:

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So I am way off I see with my presumptinos about modes....... ughhhhhhh

My version of modes ... there are 7. And it some have different colorations when played (dark, sad happy).

 

It seems to be that in each mode all the 7 modes are involved. I look at each mode as 7 box patterns. Just like the Natural Minor has 7 scales if you use the 3 notes per string fashion.

The Lydian or Phrygian has 7 scales also in my way of thinking. Except each of the 7 scales is a mode name.

 

So for me to learn modes correctly must Iearn all the patterns (7) for each mode?

And is the point of a mode to play a different mode/scale over each chord? Do you solo cover hanging modes over each chord change?

Thanks I know this is long.

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Originally posted by keano

So I am way off I see with my presumptinos about modes....... ughhhhhhh

My version of modes ... there are 7. And it some have different colorations when played (dark, sad happy).

 

 

Yes. Every kind of scale/mode has it's own sound and feeling to it.

 

It seems to be that in each mode all the 7 modes are involved. I look at each mode as 7 box patterns. Just like the Natural Minor has 7 scales if you use the 3 notes per string fashion.

The Lydian or Phrygian has 7 scales also in my way of thinking. Except each of the 7 scales is a mode name.


So for me to learn modes correctly must Iearn all the patterns (7) for each mode?

 

 

I think you're thinking it to b a lot larger of a task than it really is. In reality, there's a lot of overlap for the modes.

 

Example: Cmajor. C D E F G A B C.

 

There are 7 modes total; C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, E mixolydian, A aeolian, and B locrian.

 

So they are all related. Rather than there being 7 modes of Ionian, 7 modes of dorian, 7 modes of phrygian, etc; there are only 7 total. All 7 modes are the same notes, just emphasizing a different note.

 

How you go about emphasizing a particular note can be done a number of ways. For D dorian, you could write a melody that ends on D and has a lot of D's in it, or you could write a melody over a Dm7 chord.

 

 

There's one important thing I want to clarify about modes and that has to do with scale boxes. While yes, there are 7 box patterns for the guitar, they aren't all seperate. While each position starts on a new note, that doesn't make them all different modes. Since all 7 positions are made up of the same notes, they can all be, say in C major: C ionian or D dorian or F lydian. Modes aren't determined by just what note a scale box starts on. There are other factors such as the ones I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

 

And is the point of a mode to play a different mode/scale over each chord? Do you solo cover hanging modes over each chord change?

Thanks I know this is long.

 

 

 

You can look at modes in two ways: Harmonic and Melodic.

 

Harmonically, you can use modes to write chord progressions that don't revolve around the typical major/minor key system. You can pick a chord other than Cmajor in the key of C and use that as your tonic. You could write a progression based around the iii chord, Em, but still using the notes/chords of C major.

 

Melodically, you can use modes as alternative scale choices over chords. For example, in the chord progression of G7 to Cmajor, rather than just playing C major over the whole thing, you could play G mixolydian and C lydian. The difference is only one note over the C major chord, but the resulting sound creates a different mood, and thus the entire point of using modes.

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I see they are different options instead of playing the whole song in say Cmin the whole time.

I guess my next question is you said:

 

 

Example: Cmajor. C D E F G A B C.There are 7 modes total; C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, E mixolydian, A aeolian, and B locrian

 

 

So how do you know when to play a particular mode over a certain song/key/etc? The steps to figuring out what mode can or cannot be played. For instance you have a chord progression of say Emin, F#min, G, Amin. Then what?

How do you know if a mode is in A, G, C# etc?

 

So each mode never changes the Dorian will always be Dorian and Mixolydian will have the same 1 pattern. It's just a matter of playing them in the right area/note/fret?

 

I guess my last question is about your last paragrapgh. Using them as a means for harmonic or melodic. When playing for instance in the chord progression I mentinoed above usually one would play E natural minor scales for the whole song. Whenusing modes can we use more then 1 mode in a song? If so must we play it over the actual chord change?

 

Believe it or not I think I am slowly getting it.... almost...

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So how do you know when to play a particular mode over a certain song/key/etc?

 

This question addresses one of the most important aspects of the use of modes, IMO.

 

Over time, if you play enough music, you will learn to recognize specifically modal chord progressions.

 

Here are some examples of the most common ones:

 

Dorian: Imi to IV7 (or IVMA)

Example: Gmi7 to C7.

Play the G Dorian scale over this progression.

 

Phryian: Imi to bIIMA

Example: Emi to F.

Play the E Phrygian scale over this progression.

 

Lydian: IMA to IIMA

Example: E to F#/E (F#/E is an F# chord with E in the bass)

Play the E Lydian Scale over this progression.

 

Mixolydian: I7 to bVIIMA or I7 to Vmi

Examples: E7 to D (or E to D) E7 to Bmi

Play the E Mixolydian scale over these progressions.

 

Aeolian: Imi to IVmi

Example: Gmi7 to Cmi7

Play the G Aeolian scale over this progression

 

Locrian: Due to the unstable sound of the mi7(b5) chord (as a result of the flatted fifth interval) the Locrian mode is seldom treated as an independent tonal center. Hence, you don't see any specifically Locrian chord progressions.

 

Record these chord progressions and play the given modes over each one so you can hear how they sound. You will find that the scales fit the

chord progressions like a glove.

 

Hope this helps!

 

:cool:

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Originally posted by keano

I see they are different options instead of playing the whole song in say Cmin the whole time.

I guess my next question is you said:




So how do you know when to play a particular mode over a certain song/key/etc? The steps to figuring out what mode can or cannot be played. For instance you have a chord progression of say Emin, F#min, G, Amin. Then what?

How do you know if a mode is in A, G, C# etc?


So each mode never changes the Dorian will always be Dorian and Mixolydian will have the same 1 pattern. It's just a matter of playing them in the right area/note/fret?


I guess my last question is about your last paragrapgh. Using them as a means for harmonic or melodic. When playing for instance in the chord progression I mentinoed above usually one would play E natural minor scales for the whole song. Whenusing modes can we use more then 1 mode in a song? If so must we play it over the actual chord change?


Believe it or not I think I am slowly getting it.... almost...

 

 

Well, let's take your chord progression: Em, F#m, G, Am

 

Personally, I would make try to make things simpler and like you just play one scale over as much as I can.

 

The first three chords all fit in the key of D major, so I'd probably play that over all of them. You could be a little over-analytical and say I'm playing E dorian, F# phrygian, and G lydian.... but since all three are the same notes I'd just think of it as one scale.

 

The Am chord doesn't fit into the key of D like the rest of the chords do, so this is where you can change scales. I'd probably go with either A aeolian or A dorian (both are minor modes). How did I come to that decision?

 

Well, like Fusion58 pointed out, each mode has a different kind of chord for it. If you boil it down to simple triads or 7th chords, you end up with 3 major modes, 3 minor modes, and 1 minor7b5 mode (aka half-diminished).

 

So anytime you have a major chord, you can play one of these three: Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian. (Mixolydian is different from the other two in that it's 7th is a half step lower, so it works on dominant 7th chords, while the other two work on major7 chords)

 

Anytime you have a minor chord, you can play either: Dorian, Phrygian, or Aeolian.

 

 

While theoretically you can play any one of the minor modes on a minor chord, and any one of the major modes on a major chord, in some situations only one or two will sound correct. It depends on a lot of factors of the progression, but your ear will tell you if something sounds a little off.

 

 

Getting back to the progression: Em, F#m, G, Am.

 

If each chord was played for a long time, like 8 or 16 measures, then I'd probably approach each one with a different mode or even multiple modes. Maybe I'd play E dorian, F# dorian, G lydian, A dorian. Maybe I'd play E dorian, F# phrygian, G ionian, A aeolian. It's really a matter of taste.

 

When the progression doesn't move as fast harmonically, you can get more adventurous. When the progression moves quickly, such as one chord per bar, or two chords per bar, you're a lot more limited in what you can choose.

 

Faster harmonic progressions tend to imply a certain key much more than slower ones. In a slower progression, the ear sort of 'forgets' the key if you sit on a chord for a while, so you can get away with playing scales that don't all fit into one key, or even a couple keys.

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