Scales/modes/tonality

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by FloodsCFHCG Really elementary question, but when you say 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8 or something like that, what do you mean? Whole step, half, whole....what? I'm just not clear on that part and I'm assuming the "b" before the 3 means the note is flat? I'm pretty much clueless, but I'd like to learn.

 

 

The numbers '1 2 3 4 5 6 7' refer to the scale degrees of the major scale, whose intervals are a fixed pattern (R-W-W-H-W-W-W-H). Alterations (b or #) that are marked as such are deviations from the major scale.

 

So, in your example, you take a major scale, lower the 3rd degree (make it flat, or 'b3'), and keep the rest the same. That yields the ascending form of the melodic minor scale, btw.

[IamOne]

Never put jam on a magnet.

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by IamOne Never put jam on a magnet.

OK...I'll bite...why not?

[variant]

here's how I use modes...

Say we're in the key of G, so we're playing over chords like

Gmaj7
am7
bm7
Cmaj7
D7
em7
f# half diminished seventh

All these chords can be arpegiated using the G major scale, so if you stay in this scale, you won't play a note that sounds "wrong" unless you use a note that is the 2nd, 4th, or 6th scale degree of the chord being played. For example, B is not in the am7 chord, so there will be dissonance if this note is held over a bm7 chord. However, if the b is played in a run over this chord, it will sound fine.

For any given chord in the key of G, there are other scales that include the notes of the chord. For example, am7 is "a c e g" and these notes are all in the key of G, as well as in the keys of C and F. If we were in the key of C, playing from A to A would be A aolian mode, in the key of G, A to A would be dorian mode, and in the key of F, A to A would be phrygian mode, so we can use any of these modes over an am7 chord.

The important thing to remember is that the notes in the chord, in this case a, c, e and g, are the only notes that can be held without dissonance, and these notes are in all of the modes available, so what mode we are in only affects the runs... the notes that aren't held for very long.

I'm not sure just how correct this is, but it seems to work on my solos, if anyone knows of anything I got wrong, let me know...

And by the way this thread is awesome...

[variant]

correction... first full paragraph...

"For example, B is not in the am7 chord, so there will be dissonance if this note is held over a bm7 chord. "

I meant to say am7, not bm7... it should be

"For example, B is not in the am7 chord, so there will be dissonance if this note is held over an am7 chord. "

[raggety]

i have a modes question.


if you are playing Cmajor scale and you then want to play G mixolydian, according to the book i have got, you just start the scale on the fifth note {G} of the C scale

now it says that the mixolydian is just a major scale with a b7 note.

& this is where i get confused. do I have to Physically change that note myself to a b7 or does starting on the note 'G' automatically sharpen it for me in the scale ??

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C------
---------G-A-B-C-D-E-Fb-G-

What i mean is the book shows the same fingering for the scale but starting on a different note. BUT if i dont change it myself how can it become b7 note ?

[Poparad]

Originally posted by raggety i have a modes question. if you are playing Cmajor scale and you then want to play G mixolydian, according to the book i have got, you just start the scale on the fifth note {G} of the C scale now it says that the mixolydian is just a major scale with a b7 note. & this is where i get confused. do I have to Physically change that note myself to a b7 or does starting on the note 'G' automatically sharpen it for me in the scale ?? C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C------ ---------G-A-B-C-D-E-Fb-G- What i mean is the book shows the same fingering for the scale but starting on a different note. BUT if i dont change it myself how can it become b7 note ?

 

 

 

If you are in the key of C, the only way you can play in G mixolydian is by playing the C major scale over a Gmajor or G7 chord. The harmony underneath the scale and it's releation to the notes of the scale is what makes a mode.

 

When you play C major scale over a G major chord, it will be G mixolydian no matter what note you start or end on. Now, as you can see, when you're dealing with modes that all end up being the same scale, it's more work to think about them each as different modes than just as, in this example, C major but over different chords.

 

Here's an example of where you would use modes:

 

| Cmajor | Ab7 | G7 | G7 |

 

On C major, you would just use the C major scale. For Ab7, you'd want to use Ab mixolydian, which is the Db major scale. Then, on G7, you'd use G mixolydian, which again the C major scale.

 

 

Another example:

 

| Cmaj | F7 | Cmaj | F7 |

 

 

Here, you'd use the C major scale on the C major chord, and F mixolydian (Bb major) on the F7 chord.

[raggety]

Originally posted by Poparad If you are in the key of C, the only way you can play in G mixolydian is by playing the C major scale over a Gmajor or G7 chord. The harmony underneath the scale and it's releation to the notes of the scale is what makes a mode. When you play C major scale over a G major chord, it will be G mixolydian no matter what note you start or end on. Now, as you can see, when you're dealing with modes that all end up being the same scale, it's more work to think about them each as different modes than just as, in this example, C major but over different chords. Here's an example of where you would use modes: | Cmajor | Ab7 | G7 | G7 | On C major, you would just use the C major scale. For Ab7, you'd want to use Ab mixolydian, which is the Db major scale. Then, on G7, you'd use G mixolydian, which again the C major scale. Another example: | Cmaj | F7 | Cmaj | F7 | Here, you'd use the C major scale on the C major chord, and F mixolydian (Bb major) on the F7 chord.

OK i've typed out what the book i got says below

from guitar cookbook (pg.57) Think of the mixolydian mode as a major scale with a b7. the diatonic mode thats starts on the 5th degree of any major scale is that keys relative Mixolydian mode. play the Mixolydian mode by starting on the 5th degree of any major scale fingering pattern......

and it basically says the same for every mode
'Lydian start on the
4th degree of any major scale'

'Phrygian start on the
3rd degree of any major scale'

'Dorian start on the
2nd degree of any major scale'

etcetera......








which is correct? or does everyone have their own differing ways of doing this?

[variant]

The "starting on different notes" explination takes you from, for example, C Ionian to D dorian to E phrygian, and the b7 explination takes you from, for example, C Ionian to C Mixolydian.

[raggety]

Originally posted by variant The "starting on different notes" explination takes you from, for example, C Ionian to D dorian to E phrygian, and the b7 explination takes you from, for example, C Ionian to C Mixolydian.

yeh i got that but i still can't work out

'do I have to Physically change that note myself to a b7 when playing it or does starting on the note 'G' automatically sharpen it for me in the scale ??'

[Poparad]

Originally posted by raggety yeh i got that but i still can't work out 'do I have to Physically change that note myself to a b7 when playing it or does starting on the note 'G' automatically sharpen it for me in the scale ??'

Unfortunately, many books tell you that if you start a scale on a certain note, you're playing that mode, but in reality, it is the harmony that determines the mode.


If you play a C major scale with a b7, (C D E F G A Bb C), and the harmony is a Cmajor or C7 chord, then it is C mixolydian.

If you play a C major scale over a G major chord, (G A B C D E F G), it is G mixolydian. (Note that G mixolydian is G major with a b7).


In either of those examples, if the chords were different under those same scales, they wouldn't be mixolydian modes anymore; they would be something else depending on what that different chord would be.

[raggety]

Originally posted by Poparad Unfortunately, many books tell you that if you start a scale on a certain note, you're playing that mode, but in reality, it is the harmony that determines the mode. If you play a C major scale with a b7, (C D E F G A Bb C), and the harmony is a Cmajor or C7 chord, then it is C mixolydian. If you play a C major scale over a G major chord, (G A B C D E F G), it is G mixolydian. (Note that G mixolydian is G major with a b7). In either of those examples, if the chords were different under those same scales, they wouldn't be mixolydian modes anymore; they would be something else depending on what that different chord would be.

 

 

 

So it is the Chord which makes the mode then???

[Poparad]

Originally posted by raggety So it is the Chord which makes the mode then???

 

 

 

Correct.

 

 

 

Now, there is also modal music, but that's a different subject.

[iop]

Variant stated:"For example, B is not in the Am7 chord, so there will be dissonance if this note is held over an Am7 chord. "

What is dissonant sounding about an Am9 chord?

Am9 is a beautiful sounding chord.
For rockers this is the first chord in Stairway To Heaven.

For jazzers its one of the most highly used extended chords, in the business.

Think consonant

[swill777]

I have a question. Can you use modes over power chords? Like if you were in Drop-D tuning, barring the first 3 strings on the fifth fret that would be a G chord... so I see everyone posting what modes to play over em7 to whatever... what if your chord progression is just power chords, not 7 chords or minor/major chords? aren't power chords 5 chords?
does anyone have an example of a simple power chord progression that you could play the A aeolian mode over?
I mean if you use a lot of distortion on your guitar and play heavy type sounding music.. more or less you can't even hear the difference between some of the "fancier" chords. Thanks!

[jamesbridges]

If you really want to get to grips with modes so that you can improvise on the fly, and write amazing modal chord progressions, riffs... and also instantly understand how top musicians write so that you can understand how pieces work and were written, I recommend the following book:

Modes For Guitar Written by Tom Kolb. For guitar and voice. Includes instructional book and examples CD. With guitar tablature, standard notation, chord names, guitar chord diagrams, instructional text, introductory text and guitar notation legend. Scales and Soloing. 56 pages. 9x12 inches. Published by Musicians Institute. (HL.695555) See more info...

If you know the theory and just want a guide to all the patterns of different scales and modes on the fingerboard, then I recommend the following book:

All Scales in All Positions for Guitar A Pocket Reference for Constructing and Playing Guitar Scales Anywhere on the Fingerboard. By Jim Scott, Muriel Anderson. Pocket Guide. With notes and tablature. Size 4.5x12 inches. 72 pages. Published by Hal Leonard. (695414) See more info...

[jazzguitar4life]

Standard Modal stuff is def. badass but I think we missed a few tonalities that need to be addressed.

Lydian b7 (Melodic Minor, 4th degree)
1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
You play this over any dominant with a non-diatonic root!
Altered (Melodic Minor, 7th degree)
1 b9 #9 3 b5 b13 b7
Play this to sound "out"

But Tonality is a more difficult subject

Each mode has a characteristic tone
Ionian 4th (natural 4th)
Dorian 6th (natural 6th)
Phrygian b2nd
Lydian #4
Mixo b7
Aeolean b3
Locrian is a mixture but it's character note isn't truly defined because the b5 is a #4 but b5 is the definitive answer.

This is what makes these modes sound like they do!

According to George Russell, we're just doing modes of Lydian though. Unity of the scale and whatnot...

[Rockambition]

Hey guys,

I know this is gonna sound elementry but I am just getting back into playing guitar full force. I always hear how the major scale is a movable scale along with the minor scale. Yet when I do the C major scale then go to the D major scale the pattern is completely different. I don't get where I am going wrong here. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

[adamsj]

Mike,

When you move the C major scale up two frets to D, you have changed keys (to D). You most likely would not do this in the course of a song.

You'd play in C for a song in C and in D for a song in D.

That's why it sounds completely different.

Yes, the scale is movable, meaning that once you learn it in one key, you now know it in all keys, and all you have to do is slide it up and down the neck to fit whatever key your song is in.

There's more to know though, and you can learn more about all 7 movable diatonic scales in a FREE lesson column I have on my site BluesQuest (I originally wrote this column for Guitar.com):

Go to http://www.BluesQuest.com, then click on the "Lessons & Tips" menu item, and scroll down to the free lesson titled "Scales Are Everywhere."

Hopefully this will help you understand scales and how to use them a little better.

Oh yeah, patience, my friend. You'll be using and working on these 7 scale patterns the rest of your life, don't expect to read my column and immediately be able to understand the whole thing and fly all over the fretboard -- that ain't gonna happen.

Practice makes perfect.

Enjoy!

[iop]

Carlos Santana, was big on using Dorian and the harmonic minor scales.

George Benson, is big on the blues scale, locrian and mixolydian.

Corea uses alot of differant scales but you can get that spanish sound by using the E phrygian. Have a friend strum, ll: E, F, G, F, E :ll chords while you play the E phrygian e, f, g, a, b, c, d, e. Just for a simple example of the latin sound, try it.

I use these musicians names as a reference and they are in no way locked into a mode but they may achieve their sound by using one scale more then another.

[adamsj]

And most rock and blues players spend the majority of their solo time in Mixolydian, or a combination of the Mixolydian and the blues scale. Try that for Van Halen, a lot of Zep, Aerosmith, Stevie Ray Vaughan, etc.

Allman Brothers also did a lot of work in the major pentatonic.

[iop]

Adam, I like your signature. Nice sites!!!

[adamsj]

thanks iop! Great suggestions about Santana and George Benson, by the way!

[wanky]

that makes great sense

[axegrinder77]

great post btw.

i wanted to mention that i think it's far more practical to think in terms of "alterations" rather than patterns based on a certain starting point.

let me explain...

someone mentioned that when they play dorian, they think "c major scale starting on D" -- that works out, but.....

i think it's far better to think "d minor" with the b-flat sharpened to b-natural.

because that's what you're playing-- an altered d minor scale. you're not playing C major, so dont think "c major" it will slow you down.

like the original poster said, learn the major and minor scales. then, imo, everything else is an alteration of those scales.