Scales/modes/tonality

[Paul J. Edwards]

Originally posted by jzucker Actually, ALT nomenclature typically refers to a chord built off of Super Locrian (7th mode of melodic minor) I don't think so. An altered chord is one outside the tone center. A b5 or b9 or #5. It has nothing to do with the Super Locrian mode. The concept is yours and it may be cool and work for you but not the common understanding of it. A Bb7 going to A is not a secondary dominant but a tritone substitution. B7 would be the secondary dominant chord in that Cadence (i.e. B7 - E7 then back to A) You are right on here!!! Thanks. I had a bit of brain freeze. Jaz

 

[jzucker]

I was referring to an "ALT" chord, not an "altered" chord. One is a specific tonality i.e. A7 Alt implies Bb melodic minor. An A7 altered chord is a more generic term.

[ottobahn]

I just thought of a handy mnemonic for memorizing the order of modes as related to DO-REY-ME... of the C major scale.



C - DO - Ionian - I



D - REY - Dorian - Don't



E - ME - Phrygian - Play



F - FA - Lydian - Loud



G - SO - Mixolydian - Music



A - LA - Aeolian - Any



B - Ti - Locrian - Longer



Because "Lydian" and "Loud" both contain a "D" it is easy to differentiate it from Locrian. I don't know if anyone else thought of it first but, if they did, I did not know about it.

[Chris Grainger]

Just food for thought (these are always true):
Ionian = Major 7 chord
Dorian = Minor 7 chord
Phrygian = Minor 7 chord
Lydian = Major 7 chord
Mixolydian = Dominant 7 chord
Aeolian = Minor 7 chord
Locrian = Half Diminished chord

These are all for 4 tone chords. If they were 3 tone chords it would be:
Ionian = Major
Dorian = Minor
Phrygian = Minor
Lydian = Major
Mixolydian = Major
Aeolian = Minor
Locrian = Diminished chord

For the guy who thought you could just learn the major scale pattern and adjust to play from each tone for a different mode, this works but it restricts your playing REDICULOUSLY. Each mode has a shape you can learn if you learn by shapes. This creates a 3 note per string pattern that gives you a much larger range on the fretboard.

Eventually, you can literally know where every note on the fretboard is without thinking. The way to do this is practice your modal or major scale shapes, and say the notes out loud. Think about what notes you are playing.

Start moving on to diatonic arpeggios. You can learn these by playing the modes but skipping the 2nd, 4th, and 6th tones. This requires some stretching, but it can be done comfortably over time and will be best. You can also do this by trying the "modal from major scale" idea but skipping the same mentioned tones. Once again, say the notes out loud, this will help you learn the fretboard.

Also, don't be afraid to practice one string major scales. It's a great excersize to practice any scale up each string, starting from the lowest tonic on the low E and going up each string until it's highest tonic on the high E.

[Lee33]

Well I'm taking a big risk here as with my first post I'm gonna suggest that modes are pretty much pointless to the average player. If you are not playing fusion whereby the key changes with almost every chord - modes are of no importance. If you are playing according to the chord changes - then you are playing modally - if you are not - you are not. It's all a big game of "I play modes".

It makes not a blind bit of difference which note a solo starts on as to which mode you are using, in fact the end note is far more important.

Look at it this way. If I made a mistake on the first note and missed the string and came in on the second note - would I be playing in a different mode (assuming it was a different note)?

What if I dropped my plectrum and came in on the seventh note - would my solo that night be in the Locrian mode? Hardly.

Modes are a blind alley for the untallented.

Lee

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 If you are playing according to the chord changes - then you are playing modally - if you are not - you are not. It's all a big game of "I play modes".

 

 

Not necessarily. If you are playing over the progression of C Am F G, and you play the C major scale over each chord, you aren't playing modes. You aren't playing C Ionian, A aeolian, F lydian, G mixolydian. The progression is diationic and the note choices are all diatonic.

 

However, if for each chord you played a slightly different scale (although I wouldn't in this case because of the diatonic nature of the progression) then it would be modal.

 

Modes are a very importantly tool to the improvisor. I gives you new colors to play with. To anyone who truly understands how to use them, it's definately not a 'game' of showing off your knowledge. To someone who truly knows how to use them, it's just using a different sound that fits the moment musically.

 

Look at it this way. If I made a mistake on the first note and missed the string and came in on the second note - would I be playing in a different mode (assuming it was a different note)? What if I dropped my plectrum and came in on the seventh note - would my solo that night be in the Locrian mode? Hardly. Modes are a blind alley for the untallented. Lee

 

 

Modes have nothing to do at all with what note you start on. They have everything to do with how all the notes of the scale relate to the harmony.

 

Say there's an Am chord we're playing on, and I play the following notes:

 

C D E F G A B C

 

That's A aeolian. It doesn't matter that I've started on C or ended on C. The way those notes relate to the Am harmony make it A aeolian.

 

Now, let's instead play these notes:

 

B C D E F# G A B

 

Now, I'm starting on B, but that doesn't make it B phrygian. Since the harmony is still Am, it's going to be some sort of mode in A. In this case it's A dorian.

 

 

Modes are a nothing more than a different color to paint with musically. Unfortunately some people try to make it much more complicated and confusing that it really is, but that doesn't mean using them makes one an intellectual show off or untalented.

[Lee33]

Well let's put it another way. Neither EVH or Clapton would recognise a 'mode' if it jumped up and bit them on the scrotum.

It's commonly recognised that most of the guitar gods over the years have been all but theory illiterate.

How many times have a read a break-down of a Clapton solo where the magazine will say "Eric cleverly moves into G Dorian before modulating to....".

And then I read Eric say that he knows nothing of modes.

It's all far too much talk.

Do you think modes when you whistle? "Oh I'll use F Dorian"?

Or do you whistle what you hear in your head?

Then shouldn't guitar be just the same? You play what you are hearing in your head - no need for modes, scales etc any more than if you whistle. When you whistle you move your lip muscles. When you play guitar you use your finger muscles - but you should still be playing what you hear in your head - modes and scales don't even come into it.

That's my take on it anyway.

I may not be the world's premier guitar player but I can improvise a solo without once thinking theory. In fact if I was thinking theory - I wouldn't be able to play the solo.

Just as a racing driver doesn't think "Oh I'll turn the wheel right about now" - cuz he'd be off the track in a flash.

This is a track I made the other day. It's a rough, first take with mistakes in it, but this is how I like to construct my solos - on the fly.

No (deliberate) modes here - just what I heard in my head.


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nwd/impro.mp3


BTW do you have a 'clips' forum here? A place to post MP3 ideas?


Lee

[Paul J. Edwards]

Originally posted by Lee33 Well let's put it another way. Neither EVH or Clapton would recognise a 'mode' if it jumped up and bit them on the scrotum. It's commonly recognised that most of the guitar gods over the years have been all but theory illiterate. How many times have a read a break-down of a Clapton solo where the magazine will say "Eric cleverly moves into G Dorian before modulating to....". And then I read Eric say that he knows nothing of modes. It's all far too much talk. Do you think modes when you whistle? "Oh I'll use F Dorian"? Or do you whistle what you hear in your head? Then shouldn't guitar be just the same? You play what you are hearing in your head - no need for modes, scales etc any more than if you whistle. When you whistle you move your lip muscles. When you play guitar you use your finger muscles - but you should still be playing what you hear in your head - modes and scales don't even come into it. That's my take on it anyway. I may not be the world's premier guitar player but I can improvise a solo without once thinking theory. In fact if I was thinking theory - I wouldn't be able to play the solo. Just as a racing driver doesn't think "Oh I'll turn the wheel right about now" - cuz he'd be off the track in a flash. This is a track I made the other day. It's a rough, first take with mistakes in it, but this is how I like to construct my solos - on the fly. No (deliberate) modes here - just what I heard in my head. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nwd/impro.mp3 BTW do you have a 'clips' forum here? A place to post MP3 ideas? Lee

 

 

There are some people that have a gift. They do not need to theorize what they do they just do it. Clapton is a blues player. His main inspiration comes from his heart and that's how he plays best.

 

Now someone like Wes Montgomery also plays from the heart and he does have a vast knowledge of theory to play his stuff. He does not intellectualize when he plays he just goes for it. The woodshedding he did to learn that stuff becomes second nature.

 

Now most of us mere mortals do not have the gift as rich as these guys do so we need to work a bit more to get close. We might even gain our own voice. Some do it by exploring theory to hear news sounds or some work a blues scale and can "hear" what they want.

 

There is no right way.

 

John McLaughlin.... modes deluxe.

Muddy Waters... all heart.

 

Both legendery players that have reached their status because they had a gift and the drive to persue it albeit from different paths.

 

If you can express your feelings with one note and your audiewnce feels it too than you are a sucess.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 Well let's put it another way. Neither EVH or Clapton would recognise a 'mode' if it jumped up and bit them on the scrotum. It's commonly recognised that most of the guitar gods over the years have been all but theory illiterate. How many times have a read a break-down of a Clapton solo where the magazine will say "Eric cleverly moves into G Dorian before modulating to....". And then I read Eric say that he knows nothing of modes. It's all far too much talk.

 

 

While players like these don't have a concious awareness of the names of the scales they are playing, they are none the less still playing them.

 

Also, someone like Clapton isn't going to be playing over the most sophisticated harmonies. All he needs is the blues scale to play the blues.

 

Do you think modes when you whistle? "Oh I'll use F Dorian"? Or do you whistle what you hear in your head? Then shouldn't guitar be just the same? You play what you are hearing in your head - no need for modes, scales etc any more than if you whistle. When you whistle you move your lip muscles. When you play guitar you use your finger muscles - but you should still be playing what you hear in your head - modes and scales don't even come into it.

 

 

If you truly know a mode, then it is in your head. It is in your ears. Then it is the sort of thing you whistle or play.

 

You probably know the blues scale, right? You learned it one day when beginning to improvise, and went at it exploring the sounds it creates and what it sounds like over chords.

 

Modes are no different. They're just a different collection of notes. They're still a scale. They still create certain sounds over a chord. They can still be used when improvising. I don't see why you have prejudice against alternative sounds.

 

If I were a painter, I wouldn't want to limit myself to just the 3 primary colors. I would want to use different shades of red, purples, greens, oragnes, shades of blue, etc. I'm not saying I'd use all the colors all the time, but if I wanted to use a different color it would be there for me to try.

 

Modes are just a different melodic and harmonic color to use while soloing. Nothing more to it. They aren't something that only intellectual people use. They are found in a lot more places than you'd think. They are just as valid a scale choice as the blues scale for improvising.

 

That's my take on it anyway. I may not be the world's premier guitar player but I can improvise a solo without once thinking theory. In fact if I was thinking theory - I wouldn't be able to play the solo. Just as a racing driver doesn't think "Oh I'll turn the wheel right about now" - cuz he'd be off the track in a flash.

 

 

This is because the racecar driver has practiced and practiced what it feels like to make a turn, so when it comes down to it and he has to do it in a real life situation, he can do it instinctually and not have to think about it.

 

Do I use modes when I solo? Absolutely. Do I think about them any harder than any other scale I would play? Not at all. If you learn the sound of a certain mode well enough, it will come out instinctually and without much effort or thought.

 

I'm not frying my brain when soloing trying to come up with different modes and scales. I know them so well that I don't have to think about them and I just play what my ears hear. Often, my ears are hearing modes, so that's what my fingers play.

[Lee33]

OK. Let's assume we have a C major scale and I'm playing a solo using it. How would you decide which mode I was playing? I don't play solos that start at C and end on C or start of G and end on G.

I use the entire scale with plenty of interval jumps in between.

Isn't it rather a pointless exersize to (afterward) say "Oh he used the G a lot so he played in the Mixolydian mode"?

Just what is the point in dissecting something after the event?

I don't use them when I whistle a melody - why do I need them when I play a guitar melody?

I'm hoping that someone can explain why I need modes when I know all the scale patterns without any thought whatsoever.
If I can whistle a melody I can play the melody straight off without a moments thought. I know where all the notes are, I can hear the interval space in my head so I know where to send my finger to. All I have to do is 'dream up' the melody as we go.
If I can't whistle it - I can't play it. But why would I want to play something I couldn't visualise? It would be nothing more than random notes - hardly the stuff of interesting music.

Lee

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 OK. Let's assume we have a C major scale and I'm playing a solo using it. How would you decide which mode I was playing? I don't play solos that start at C and end on C or start of G and end on G. I use the entire scale with plenty of interval jumps in between. Isn't it rather a pointless exersize to (afterward) say "Oh he used the G a lot so he played in the Mixolydian mode"?

 

 

What note you start or end on doesn't have anything to do with what mode you are playing. This is why you're seeing modes are pointless.

 

Modes are always determined by the harmony that the scale is being played over.

 

 

Now, let's go back to the C major example. Say we're playing this over a C major chord. Normally I'd just say this is the major scale, but for the sake of comparing modes, let's use it's modal name: Ionian.

 

No matter what note of the scale you are starting on, ending on, or using often, as long as you are playing the notes C D E F G A B C in any order over a C major chord, that's C Ionian.

 

Now, let's swtich to lydian. The key here is that we are going to be switching to a *parallel* mode: C lydian. Lydian is derrived from the 4th mode of the major scale, so in this case it would be the 4th mode of G major.

 

C lydian: C D E F# G A B C.

 

We're still playing over a C major chord. But now instead of that F natural, we've just changed it to an F#. The rest of the notes are the same.

 

This creates a different sound in relation to the harmony. It's a new color to use over the major chord. You can switch between the two at will; however your ears determine.

 

 

Once you really get to know the sound of that raised 4th against a major chord, it will be in your ears. It will be a sound that you will instinctually hear.

 

 

Judging from the soundclip you posted, I imagine that a lot of the music you play is all set in one key (nothing wrong with that). Al the chord can fit into one key, so you can play the same scale over the whole progression. In this case it is often easier to do so, and sometimes sounds more unifying than switching scales a lot.

 

However, say you have this progression:

 

Emaj7 / Dmaj7 / Dm7 / Am7

 

There isn't one scale that will work over this. Dm7 and Am7 can both fit into one scale, but even then, it will probably sound better playing the same mode over each (D Dorian and A Dorian).

 

This is where modes are essential. In order to quickly be able to know what notes to play, you have to know what modes work over a Major7 chord, and a minor 7 chord.

 

I would play it like this:

 

Emaj7 - E lydian - E F# G# A# B C# D# E

Dmaj7 - D lydian - D E F# G# A B C# D

Dm7 - D dorian - D E F G A B C

Am7 - A dorian - A B C D E F# G A

 

 

Because I know all of those sounds very well, I can quickly recall them for each chord. Modes are always chord centric.

 

There are some alternate choices for the progression above. I just chose the ones that are my favorite sounds.

 

Here's a breakdown of which modes go with what chords:

 

(Numbers indicate degrees of the major scale. Flats or sharps before a degree indicate it is being altered from the way it is in the major scale)

 

Major triads / Major 7 chords:

 

Ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

 

Minor traids/ Minor 7 chords:

 

Aeolian - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

 

Major triads/ Dominant 7 chords:

 

Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

 

(Locrian isn't very useful over due to it's unstable and dissonant nature).

 

 

Just six different modes. Each has it's own sound, each has it's own kind of chord that it works with.

 

So now when you come across a Gmaj chord, you have two options to play: G Ionian (G A B C D E F# G) or G lydian (G A B C# D E F# G).

 

When you come across a G minor chord you have 3 options: G aeolian (G A Bb C D Eb F G), G dorian (G A Bb C D E F G), or G phrygian (G Ab Bb C D Eb F G).

 

 

They're all slightly different colors to play with over a certain chord. At first they will sound new and different, and you may not be sure when to apply each. Eventually the sounds will get in your ears, and you may just find yourself whistling a melody in dorian.

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Lee33 I'm hoping that someone can explain why I need modes when I know all the scale patterns without any thought whatsoever. Lee

*Modes are NOT scale patterns; and scale patterns are NOT modes!*

The commonly held belief that they ARE the same has got to go; it's done nothing but harm when it comes to people learning/understanding theory, and it primarily afflicts guitarists. It's music theory's own form of cancer, and it keeps spreading.

Think of Poparad's explanations as chemotherapy.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie *Modes are NOT scale patterns; and scale patterns are NOT modes!*

+1

Think of Poparad's explanations as chemotherapy.

Hahaha.

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie *Modes are NOT scale patterns; and scale patterns are NOT modes!* The commonly held belief that they ARE the same has got to go; it's done nothing but harm when it comes to people learning/understanding theory, and it primarily afflicts guitarists. It's music theory's own form of cancer, and it keeps spreading. Think of Poparad's explanations as chemotherapy.

Any pattern based on a scale is a scale pattern. If it's not - then what is it? BTW - why are you shouting?


Lee

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Lee33 Any pattern based on a scale is a scale pattern. If it's not - then what is it? A 'pattern based on a scale' has NOTHING to do with modes. Nothing. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Did you not read what Poparad wrote? Have you not read through many other threads in this forum where the topic was addressed? You yourself made mention of whistling and then playing what you whistle...do you whistle in 'scale patterns'? Do you use different fingerings for different types of whistling? You're confusing a guitar-centric/tuning-dependent construct with actual music theory. BTW - why are you shouting?

I shout because it's the most prevalent music theory FALLACY in the guitar-playing world. Obviously, I didn't shout loud enough. Let's try this again...in Technicolor:

MODES are NOT scale patterns, and scale patterns are NOT modes!!!

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Poparad What note you start or end on doesn't have anything to do with what mode you are playing. This is why you're seeing modes are pointless. Modes are always determined by the harmony that the scale is being played over. Now, let's go back to the C major example. Say we're playing this over a C major chord. Normally I'd just say this is the major scale, but for the sake of comparing modes, let's use it's modal name: Ionian. No matter what note of the scale you are starting on, ending on, or using often, as long as you are playing the notes C D E F G A B C in any order over a C major chord, that's C Ionian. Now, let's swtich to lydian. The key here is that we are going to be switching to a *parallel* mode: C lydian. Lydian is derrived from the 4th mode of the major scale, so in this case it would be the 4th mode of G major. C lydian: C D E F# G A B C. We're still playing over a C major chord. But now instead of that F natural, we've just changed it to an F#. The rest of the notes are the same. This creates a different sound in relation to the harmony. It's a new color to use over the major chord. You can switch between the two at will; however your ears determine. Once you really get to know the sound of that raised 4th against a major chord, it will be in your ears. It will be a sound that you will instinctually hear. Judging from the soundclip you posted, I imagine that a lot of the music you play is all set in one key (nothing wrong with that). Al the chord can fit into one key, so you can play the same scale over the whole progression. In this case it is often easier to do so, and sometimes sounds more unifying than switching scales a lot. However, say you have this progression: Emaj7 / Dmaj7 / Dm7 / Am7 There isn't one scale that will work over this. Dm7 and Am7 can both fit into one scale, but even then, it will probably sound better playing the same mode over each (D Dorian and A Dorian). This is where modes are essential. In order to quickly be able to know what notes to play, you have to know what modes work over a Major7 chord, and a minor 7 chord. I would play it like this: Emaj7 - E lydian - E F# G# A# B C# D# E Dmaj7 - D lydian - D E F# G# A B C# D Dm7 - D dorian - D E F G A B C Am7 - A dorian - A B C D E F# G A Because I know all of those sounds very well, I can quickly recall them for each chord. Modes are always chord centric. There are some alternate choices for the progression above. I just chose the ones that are my favorite sounds. Here's a breakdown of which modes go with what chords: (Numbers indicate degrees of the major scale. Flats or sharps before a degree indicate it is being altered from the way it is in the major scale) Major triads / Major 7 chords: Ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 Minor traids/ Minor 7 chords: Aeolian - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Major triads/ Dominant 7 chords: Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 (Locrian isn't very useful over due to it's unstable and dissonant nature). Just six different modes. Each has it's own sound, each has it's own kind of chord that it works with. So now when you come across a Gmaj chord, you have two options to play: G Ionian (G A B C D E F# G) or G lydian (G A B C# D E F# G). When you come across a G minor chord you have 3 options: G aeolian (G A Bb C D Eb F G), G dorian (G A Bb C D E F G), or G phrygian (G Ab Bb C D Eb F G). They're all slightly different colors to play with over a certain chord. At first they will sound new and different, and you may not be sure when to apply each. Eventually the sounds will get in your ears, and you may just find yourself whistling a melody in dorian.

 

 

 

First of all let me thank you for an interesting and informative post.

 

I'm not suggesting that what you say is wrong - but that in the vast majority of cases (as I said in my first post on the subject) -unless you are a fusion guitarist - you really don't need modes.

 

I can't think of any popular song that has anything other than a simple key change (and I can't think of many of those).

 

I've recently taken an interest in 40s jazz - and there still aren't many cases of fusion type key change whereby every chord is unrelated to the one before it (as in your example).

 

This type of music is a tiny offshoot of mainstream music and only a tiny percentage of players in this forum will ever meet up with it. Most want to play rock or metal or blues or soft jazz or acoustic stuff whereby there are very few key changes as it is hard work listening to such music.

 

Modes are for fusion guitar players. the rest of us only need the basic scales which can then be embelished by adding the 'missing' chromatics. If playing the basic C scale (ionian) I will often add the Eb as the 'blue note' or A# to give it a different feel. The point I'm making is that I can hear in my mind the 'other' notes. I don't need to think "Oh I'll add a little flavour", because I can already hear it. I can feel it as a tension in my 'mind's ear'.

So all this endless talk about modes for the average Joe the Amateur guitar player is just not necessary - you'll just scare him to death. Modes are a myth.

 

When I meet a piece with an odd chord structure (very rare) I just look at the chords as a guide to what I should play.

 

EMaj 7 - top 3 strings fret 4

 

Dmay 7 - top 3 strings fret 2

 

Dm7 - top 3 strings fret 10

 

Am7 - top 3 strings fret 5.

 

This puts my ear in place and I can play around the basic scale shapes on either those frets or corresponding patterns elsewhere. The difference is - that I hear the notes in my mind - I don't need to 'think modes'. I'm no-doubt playing modally - but I don't need to think about it.

 

THat's what I mean. I play melodically - not modally. If it sounds good in my head - I'll play it. If it doesn't sound good - for some reason I just don't hear anything at all - just a blank.

 

But I'm happy with that. I don't want to play what I can't hear. I don't like the idea of my fingers walking around and me not knowing what they are up to.

 

 

 

 

Lee

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie I shout because it's the most prevalent music theory FALLACY in the guitar-playing world. Obviously, I didn't shout loud enough. Let's try this again...in Technicolor: MODES are NOT scale patterns, and scale patterns are NOT modes!!!

Any pattern based around a scale is a scale pattern - gedditt yet?



Lee

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Lee33 Any pattern based around a scale is a scale pattern - gedditt yet? Lee

 

 

 

What do patterns have to do with modes? NOTHING!!!!!

 

It's YOU who obviously does not 'get it' when it comes to modes; you still equate them with patterns. You also equate scales with patterns.

 

I find it rather audacious for someone who doesn't understand modes to dissuade others from studying them. But hey, if you like to stand on thin ice, be my guest.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 First of all let me thank you for an interesting and informative post. I'm not suggesting that what you say is wrong - but that in the vast majority of cases (as I said in my first post on the subject) -unless you are a fusion guitarist - you really don't need modes.

 

 

I'm not a fusion guitarist and I have hardly played that style. I've played in rock bands, folk bands, straight ahead jazz combos, big bands, funk bands, and I've used modes in all of them.

 

The folk band used very simple, diatonic progressions. Like in the very first example I gave of C major and C lydian, I was able to employ modes. I didn't use them because modes make me a sophisticated or intellectual guitarist; I used them because I like their sound and I felt that they were what would make the best sounding music for the situation.

 

Modes are not a very esoteric idea. In concept and application, they are really absolutely no different than pentatonic scales or the major scale. They are merely different sounds to use.

 

I can't think of any popular song that has anything other than a simple key change (and I can't think of many of those).

 

 

Many Radiohead songs first come to mind... I haven't listened much to the radio in the past 5 or 6 years because I just have bad corporate radio in my area.

 

 

The example progression I gave that changed keys was give to point out a place where modes were essential. They are quite easily be used in a situation that has diatonic progressions.

 

 

I've recently taken an interest in 40s jazz - and there still aren't many cases of fusion type key change whereby every chord is unrelated to the one before it (as in your example).

 

 

"Take the 'A' Train" written by Billy Strayhorn and performed by Duke Ellington's orchestra. Very simple tune, a jazz tune that begginers often play.

 

The first four bars: Cmaj7 / Cmaj7 / D7(#11) / D7(#11)

 

Right there are two different harmonic sounds. Cmaj7 can be both Ionian or Lydain, and jazz players use this all the time. Duke wrote with Lydian quite often. The D7(#11) can only be two sounds, both of which aren't from the major scale.

 

Just an example of a classic swing tune with harmony that either lends or necessitates the use of modes.

 

This type of music is a tiny offshoot of mainstream music and only a tiny percentage of players in this forum will ever meet up with it. Most want to play rock or metal or blues or soft jazz or acoustic stuff whereby there are very few key changes as it is hard work listening to such music. Modes are for fusion guitar players.

 

 

Once again, I am not a fusion player and I've played in bands of all those styles you've mentioned, and I've quite easily found places to use modes in those sitations.

 

the rest of us only need the basic scales which can then be embelished by adding the 'missing' chromatics. If playing the basic C scale (ionian) I will often add the Eb as the 'blue note' or A# to give it a different feel. The point I'm making is that I can hear in my mind the 'other' notes. I don't need to think "Oh I'll add a little flavour", because I can already hear it. I can feel it as a tension in my 'mind's ear'. So all this endless talk about modes for the average Joe the Amateur guitar player is just not necessary - you'll just scare him to death. Modes are a myth.

 

 

Modes are certainly not a myth. They are just as much a legitimate scale choice as pentatonic scales and the major scale. They merely offer alternative sounds that you can't get from the aforementioned scales.

 

While adding chromatics to the major scale is a often used device in soloing for creating new sounds, it's simply that: adding chromatics. A mode is a certain set of sounds over a chord. Chromatic passing tones are called passing tones because they aren't really 'inside' the sound of the scale, and are merely passing from one tone to another. Modes are the use of an actual distinct different set of notes in order to create a different sound.

 

Modes are not an intellectual or stuffy or hard to understand concept. They are created and used the same way as any other scale. They are just alternate sounds. I still don't understand why you don't want to aknowledge the value or legitimicy of persuing and using different sounds to expand your musical pallette. Modes are just another option to choose from to have a more diverse 'bag of tricks' and avoid playing the same lines over and over again. Diversity is the spice of life, and diversity in scale choices makes an improvisor's music more interesting to the listener, and more interesting to the one performing it.

 

When I meet a piece with an odd chord structure (very rare) I just look at the chords as a guide to what I should play. EMaj 7 - top 3 strings fret 4 Dmay 7 - top 3 strings fret 2 Dm7 - top 3 strings fret 10 Am7 - top 3 strings fret 5. This puts my ear in place and I can play around the basic scale shapes on either those frets or corresponding patterns elsewhere. The difference is - that I hear the notes in my mind - I don't need to 'think modes'. I'm no-doubt playing modally - but I don't need to think about it.

 

 

What's the harm in actually knowing what is you are playing?

 

Say I hear a certain sound in my head. If I know in concrete terms what that is, I can go right for it and cut out the guesswork, mental labor in trying to match the sounds in my head, and avoid playing something that wasn't my intention.

 

Knowing the different sound just takes a lot of the work out of improvising and allows me to focus on the more important aspects of music, such as creating a good line, or expanding apon motifs and other ideas in my solos.

 

Because I know both what the sounds in my head are, and because I know exactly what 'dorian' for example will sound like before I play it, I don't need to think about it either. In fact, I have to think much less than if I were taking stabs at the dark trying to come up with a sound similar to my intent. Like I said before, I can shift my attention to other, more important aspects of a solo.

 

THat's what I mean. I play melodically - not modally. If it sounds good in my head - I'll play it. If it doesn't sound good - for some reason I just don't hear anything at all - just a blank.

 

 

Melodic playing and modal playing are not opposites. They are not even the same thing.

 

Modes are just another kind of scale. You can play just as melodically with a mode as you can with a pentatonic scale. They are just alternate sounds to choose from. Using modes in your soloing will not change your soloing style; it will merely increase the options you have available to you, and I can't imagine how that can be a bad thing.

 

But I'm happy with that. I don't want to play what I can't hear. I don't like the idea of my fingers walking around and me not knowing what they are up to.

 

 

The point is to know what those modes sound like. I never play a mode because it will 'theoretically' work. I play it because I like the way it sounds.

 

I've also practice and played these sounds frequently enough that I know what they are going to sound like before I play them. I don't just move my fingers mechanically hoping that the 'theoretically correct' notes sound right.

 

Theoretically, no one can play what they can't hear. However, there are sounds out there that I recognize others playing that I think are really cool and I'd love to incorporate into my playing. I learn what it is they are doing, plactice it until I know how it sounds, and then I use it.

 

I only use that scale or mode or whatever it is *after* I know how it sounds.

[Lee33]

The bottom line is - there are only 12 notes. I know where they are on the fretboard. If i need them - I play them. It's as basic as that.

Why not post a backing track? You play it your way and I'll play it mine. We can listen to each other's results and then I'll see one way or the other what benefits modes have.

I play according to scales. I play the notes out of each scale that suit the chords, but all my solos are based on themes - and those themes come out of my head. I know where the notes are to play those themes. I don't have time to think about it - I just play them as they evolve.

So is it a goer? Do you have a backing track?



Lee

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 The bottom line is - there are only 12 notes. I know where they are on the fretboard. If i need them - I play them. It's as basic as that. I play according to scales. I play the notes out of each scale that suit the chords, but all my solos are based on themes - and those themes come out of my head. I know where the notes are to play those themes. I don't have time to think about it - I just play them as they evolve.

 

 

Well, if you claim you are playing scales that fit the chords, why are you disagreeing with me?

 

Why not post a backing track? You play it your way and I'll play it mine. We can listen to each other's results and then I'll see one way or the other what benefits modes have. So is it a goer? Do you have a backing track?

 

 

 

Sure.

 

Here's a recording of Horace Silver's 'Song for My Father' that I did today:

 

http://gozips.uakron.edu/~jjp14/songformyfather.mp3

 

 

Here's a midi of the accompaniment:

 

http://gozips.uakron.edu/~jjp14/sfmf.mid

[Lee33]

I don't want to offend you but in a number of places you are playing in the wrong key altogether. It's in the same key throughout. Playing in the wrong key isn't the function of modes.

Why can't you hear that you are in the wrong key?



Lee

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 I don't want to offend you but in a number of places you are playing in the wrong key altogether. It's in the same key throughout. Playing in the wrong key isn't the function of modes. Why can't you hear that you are in the wrong key? Lee

 

 

Um, because I'm *not* playing in the wrong key...

 

There's only 1 note in the entire solo that I didn't mean to play. In the third chorus I momentarily played an A natural over the Fm chord but I slid back down to an Ab. I was playing up on the 22nd fret of the B string, so I was slightly disoriented.

 

 

All those D naturals over Fm are good notes. The natural 6th over Fm is a cool sound.

 

All those A naturals over Eb7 and G naturals over Db7 are good notes. The #11 is a very hip sound on dominant.

 

 

You must have pretty closed ears if you think those are wrong notes. I could really play outside if I wanted to, but I limited myself to just a couple modal sounds for the sake of demonstrating how they sound.

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Poparad Um, because I'm *not* playing in the wrong key... There's only 1 note in the entire solo that I didn't mean to play. In the third chorus I momentarily played an A natural over the Fm chord but I slid back down to an Ab. I was playing up on the 22nd fret of the B string, so I was slightly disoriented. All those D naturals over Fm are good notes. The natural 6th over Fm is a cool sound. All those A naturals over Eb7 and G naturals over Db7 are good notes. The #11 is a very hip sound on dominant. You must have pretty closed ears if you think those are wrong notes. I could really play outside if I wanted to, but I limited myself to just a couple modal sounds for the sake of demonstrating how they sound.

 

 

 

I'm not going to argue about it. In my opinion you are playing in the wrong key - seriously wrong in one part. If you are happy with it - fine.

 

 

 

Lee

[D8rkn3ss]

Just wondering, if modes are only reflected by the underlying harmony, how does one explain Palestrina's use of the modes? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he use actual modes in his melodies? example a melody in D dorian that begins and ends on D.