Scales/modes/tonality

[jzucker]

I think you're all making this harder than it needs to be. You can't analyze any chord progression without examining the function of the chords as opposed to the raw data the chords contain.

If you examine the functions of the chords in the Em F#m G Am you will see that it's in the key of Emin and the Am is simply the IVm chord. Therefore, Edorian and Adorian or (A melodic minor) if you want to get fancy. The Am is functioning as a B7b9sus chord so you could actually play E harmonic minor or C melodic minor (over the Am7) that progression.

Simple, right!?!

[Fusion58]

If you examine the functions of the chords in the Em F#m G Am you will see that it's in the key of Emin and the Am is simply the IVm chord.

Therefore, Edorian and Adorian or (A melodic minor)

 

In order for the progression Emi F#mi G Ami to be an Ami progression the F#mi chord would have to be an FMA7 chord (or, if you are harmonizing w/ triads it would have to be an FMA triad.)

 

The progression can't be E dorian because there is no Ami chord in E dorian. (The key signature for E dorian = the key signature for D major.)

 

In order for the progression to be in A dorian the F#mi chord would (again) have to be F#mi7(b5) (or an F# diminished triad.)

 

The progression can't be A melodic minor because the chords in A melodic minor are:

 

Ami/ma7 Bmi7 CMA7(#5) D7 E7 F#mi7(b5) G#mi7(b5)

 

The Am is functioning as a B7b9sus chord

 

Ami doesn't function as a B7b9sus chord.

 

BTW, you will seldom (if ever) see a chord called "B7b9sus" in musical practice. Go through The Real Book page by page and see if you ever encounter this chord symbol.

 

so you could actually play E harmonic minor or C melodic minor (over the Am7) that progression.

 

Harmonic minor is used either over a tonic minor chord or up a fourth from a functioning dominant chord which resolves to a tonic minor chord.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by Fusion58 [bIn order for the progression Emi F#mi G Ami to be an Ami progression the F#mi chord would have to be an FMA7 chord (or, if you are harmonizing w/ triads it would have to be an FMA triad.)

 

I Said Emin, not Amin. The Ami is the IVmin chord and a sub for a B7susb9 as I said.

 

The progression can't be E dorian because there is no Ami chord in E dorian. (The key signature for E dorian = the key signature for D major.)

 

I also didn't say it was an E dorian progression. I said it was in an Emin key. Not all chord progressions stay diatonic to a single key. For example, this chord progression is in D, yet it is not a D Ionian chord progression:

 

Em7 F7 Bbmaj7 Db7 Gbmaj A7 Dmaj7

 

 

In order for the progression to be in A dorian the F#mi chord would (again) have to be F#mi7(b5) (or an F# diminished triad.)

 

 

Hmmm - Maybe you didn't mean to quote me because I never said it was an A dorian progression.

 

 

Ami doesn't function as a B7b9sus chord.

 

 

Yes it does.

 

 

BTW, you will seldom (if ever) see a chord called "B7b9sus" in musical practice. Go through The Real Book page by page and see if you ever encounter this chord symbol.

 

 

The real book is one of the most inaccurate books of all time in terms of chord progressions. Plus, it is stocked with tunes from the '50s and '60s, most of which do not have polychords and other modern types of chords of which (argueably) a B7b9sus is. BTW, if you would listen to any post '60s jazz composer (Metheny, Goodrick, Abercrombie, Tyner, Holdsworth, Bierach, Brecker, Hancock, Corea) you will see tons of examples of that chord. It's very common.

 

 

Harmonic minor is used either over a tonic minor chord or up a fourth from a functioning dominant chord which resolves to a tonic minor chord.

 

 

Harmonic minor is used wherever an improviser or composer wants to use it. For example, I use the 6th mode all all the time over maj7 chords. For example, E harmonic minor creates a B/C which yields a Cmaj7#9#11. The examples you list work perfectly well but are certainly not the only ways in which you can use that tonality.

 

Jaz

[Poparad]

Originally posted by jzucker Harmonic minor is used wherever an improviser or composer wants to use it. For example, I use the 6th mode all all the time over maj7 chords. For example, E harmonic minor creates a B/C which yields a Cmaj7#9#11. The examples you list work perfectly well but are certainly not the only ways in which you can use that tonality. Jaz

 

 

That's funny you mention that chord... I just wrote a piece I'll be performing tomorrow and I'm using Ebm/G and B/C chords in it. Up until now I was just playing with alternating triads, but I like the sound of E harmonic minor over the last one.

 

Any suggestions of books or recordings or whatever to check out that really make use of a polychordal approach to things?

[jzucker]

Originally posted by Poparad Any suggestions of books or recordings or whatever to check out that really make use of a polychordal approach to things?

 

 

Abercrombie did a bunch of CD's in the late '70s and early '80s with Ritchie Bierach where they explored harmonic minor and melodic minor modes and polychords. The Abercrombie recording Arcade has lots of material you'd like and in fact is loaded with the dreaded 7b9sus chord.

 

Jaz

[Fusion58]

I Said Emin, not Amin. The Ami is the IVmin chord and a sub for a B7susb9 as I said.

Ooops--my bad. You did say Emi.

However, the progression Em F#m G Am is not an Emi progression either. That is, the F#mi chord would have to be F#mi7(b5) or F# dim triad.

Also, if you analyze Ami as the IV chord in the key of Emi, then how can it (Ami) be a sub for B7?

Actually, I can't think of any harmonic situation in which a minor chord would function as a sub for a dominant chord a whole step higher. Perhaps you can explain the theory you had in mind.

I also didn't say it was an E dorian progression. I said it was in an Emin key.

The progression isn't in the key of Emi (see explanation above.)

Obviously, you could play E Dorian over the Emi chord--but not over the entire progression. For example, the C# in E Dorian would sound awful rubbing up against the C natural in the Ami chord.

For example, this chord progression is in D, yet it is not a D Ionian chord progression:

Em7 F7 Bbmaj7 Db7 Gbmaj A7 Dmaj7

It's not really accurate to say that this progression is "in D."

The progression modulates through three different key centers.

If this were an actual piece of music it, would probably be notated without a key signature at the top of the chart.

if you would listen to any post '60s jazz composer (Metheny, Goodrick, Abercrombie, Tyner, Holdsworth, Bierach, Brecker, Hancock, Corea) you will see tons of examples of that chord. It's very common.

I'm quite familiar with post-60s jazz and fusion, and the chord you mentioned isn't at all "common" in my experience. If you look in Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" (arguably one of the essential chord theory references of all time) I don't believe you will find this chord mentioned.

But, if this chord is so "common" then maybe you can give some examples of the numerous tunes in which it appears...?

For example, E harmonic minor creates a B/C which yields a Cmaj7#9#11. The examples you list work perfectly well but are certainly not the only ways in which you can use that tonality.

By "B/C" I'm assuming you mean a B MA triad with 'C' in the bass--which is correct.

However, in actual practice, there really is no such chord as Cmaj7#9#11. I believe it would be quite difficult to find this chord symbol in any tune in any style.

While it's true that the sixth mode of harmonic minor yields a MA7th chord, you don't ever see a #9 added to a MA7 chord (since #9 is enharmonically equivalent to b3) in actual practice.

Harmonic minor is used wherever an improviser or composer wants to use it.

I'm not sure this is correct in actual practice.

Harmonic minor is really just a variation on natural minor harmony. The three most common usages are 1) to introduce the leading tone in V-I resolutions in minor tonality progressions, 2) as a dominant substitution, e.g., phrygian dominant (mode five of harmonic minor) over a dominant 7th chord w/ a #5 and a b9, and, 3) when the composer or improvisor wants to hear the specific "flavor" of the scale over a static minor chord 'vamp' or minor tonailty progression.

[jzucker]

Your theories are paper-theories and don't hold up in real life. Rather than me "prove" you wrong by citing the various examples, my suggestion is for you to open your mind and your ears. Pick up the disc I mentioned to Jeremy with Abercrombie and Bierach where there's several examples of the Cmaj7#9#11 and B7b9sus type chords. Also Brecker's Tales from the Hudson. Your citing of abstract references (i.e. '50s tunes and an abstract chord reference) is silly. Am/B (B7b9sus) is one of the most common chords in modern jazz. If you don't "hear" it or don't like it that's fine but don't pretend it doesn't exist. The B/C tonality (Cmaj7#9#11) was common back in the '50s when charlie parker played Cdmin tonalities over a Cmaj7 chord. (You do know Bird don't you?!?)

My suggestion is to open your ears and your mind will follow.

Rather than firmly standing around and arguing about what is and what isn't possible, why not check out some modern music with examples of the tonalities you deny the existance of?

Your homework is to transcribe some abercrombie, bierach and towner tunes and get back to us.

I'm done arguing with you over this. By the way, nice tunes on your website.

Jaz

[Fusion58]

I just wrote a piece I'll be performing tomorrow and I'm using Ebm/G and B/C chords in it. Up until now I was just playing with alternating triads, but I like the sound of E harmonic minor over the last one.

Interesting...

Slash chords are an interesting subject.

I would analyze B/C as an incomplete B7(b9) chord (which makes even more sense when you play E harmonic minor (or B phrygian dominant) over it.

I guess the easiest analysis of Ebmi/G would be an incomplete Eb7(#9) chord. I guess you could play Eb altered or Eb dim h/w over that one.

One of my harmony and theory teachers at G.I.T. had a pretty useful and accurate way of categorizing slash chords:

1) Inversions (e.g., E/G#, E/B, etc.)
2) Incomplete extended chords (e.g., G/C = incomplete CMA9)
3) Misspelled 7th chords (e.g., C/A = Ami7)
4) Other weird chords which are difficult to name.

[jzucker]

Not to continue this silly argument but I just thought of two tunes with examples of your denials.

Wayne Shorter's "Fall" uses an Am/B (B7susb9). He also voices the 11th of the Am, (D) making it a B7susb9#9. Also, Stern's "Choices" uses a B/C for the first chord and Stern's all over the Eharmonic minor sound for that.

Pick up the New Real Books by Sher Publishing.

[Fusion58]

Am/B (B7b9sus) is one of the most common chords in modern jazz. If you don't "hear" it or don't like it that's fine but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

As I said, if these chords are so "common" then there should be plenty of examples for which you can provide charts. Time to put up or....

For what it's worth, I'm a full-time working pro, a G.I.T. grad, a former G.I.T. instructor. I've been playing music for about 33 years (yikes!) and have never encountered "Ami/B, B7b9sus, or Cmaj7#9#11" in any piece of music in any style written in any era.

Your theories are paper-theories and don't hold up in real life.

Whew! Good thing all the people who hire me as a working musician don't seem to share your opinion there.

Just think--all these years I've been making my living as a musician and teacher on nothing but "paper theories."

Your homework is to transcribe some abercrombie, bierach and towner tunes and get back to us.

Since you presume to "school" me here, I'd be interested in seeing your credits/resume sometime.

BTW, when it comes to modern music, I'm more of a West Coast man.

Try transcribing some Frank Gambale or Tribal Tech tunes sometime.

By the way, nice tunes on your website.

Thanks for that compliment.

[jzucker]

Since you presume to "school" me here, I'd be interested in seeing your credits/resume sometime. BTW, when it comes to modern music, I'm more of a West Coast man. Try transcribing some Frank Gambale or Tribal Tech tunes sometime. By the way, nice tunes on your website. Thanks for that compliment.

You're welcome to check out my bio on my website (www.sheetsofsound.net).

Also I have examples of some of this stuff in my book "Sheets of Sound for Guitar".

Jaz

[Fusion58]

Wayne Shorter's "Fall" uses an Am/B (B7susb9). He also voices the 11th of the Am, (D) making it a B7susb9#9. Also, Stern's "Choices" uses a B/C for the first chord and Stern's all over the Eharmonic minor sound for that.

Am/B = an Ami triad w/ B in the bass = 1, 2, b3, 5 = Ami(add9)
or Ami2.

So, Ami/B = Ami(add9) w/ the ninth on the bottom.

I already gave my take on the B/C chord a couple posts ago.

As for "B7susb9"--show me a chart with this symbol on it and I'll shut up!

[Fusion58]

You're welcome to check out my bio on my website (www.sheetsofsound.net).

Hey--nice site! I'm away from home on a slow dial-up connection right now--I'll listen to your tunes a.s.a.p. when I get home.

Looking at your bio, I think I'm starting to understand our apparent differences of opinion re: theoretical matters.

I'm a west coast guy and a product of G.I.T. whereas you seem to be mostly into east coast cats like Abercrombie, et al.

A lot of people don't realize how different these two worlds can be.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by Fusion58 You're welcome to check out my bio on my website ( www.sheetsofsound.net ). Hey--nice site! I'm away from home on a slow dial-up connection right now--I'll listen to your tunes a.s.a.p. when I get home. Looking at your bio, I think I'm starting to understand our apparent differences of opinion re: theoretical matters. I'm a west coast guy and a product of G.I.T. whereas you seem to be mostly into east coast cats like Abercrombie, et al. A lot of people don't realize how different these two worlds can be.

Yes, I think it's just a matter of terminology. I listened to your playing and I hear you doing stuff I'm espousing but you just think of it differently. It's so hard to communicate over this medium. Please accept my apologies for coming across as condescending. I think your playing is great. I'm sure we'd hit it off playing live.

I think there's room for a number of different approaches.

Take care. Hope to hear more of your stuff...

Jaz

[Fusion58]

Yes, I think it's just a matter of terminology.

 

True that is.

 

It's like going from G.I.T. to Berklee, etc. The two places have two distinct language systems!

 

It's so hard to communicate over this medium. Please accept my apologies for coming across as condescending.

 

No worries, amigo. These kinds of discussions are always a good thing, IMO.

 

I think your playing is great. I'm sure we'd hit it off playing live.

 

Thanks again. I'm looking forward to listening to some of those tunes on your site.

 

All the best,

Mike

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Fusion58 By "B/C" I'm assuming you mean a B MA triad with 'C' in the bass--which is correct. However, in actual practice, there really is no such chord as Cmaj7#9#11. I believe it would be quite difficult to find this chord symbol in any tune in any style. While it's true that the sixth mode of harmonic minor yields a MA7th chord, you don't ever see a #9 added to a MA7 chord (since #9 is enharmonically equivalent to b3) in actual practice. Harmonic minor is used wherever an improviser or composer wants to use it. I'm not sure this is correct in actual practice. Harmonic minor is really just a variation on natural minor harmony. The three most common usages are 1) to introduce the leading tone in V-I resolutions in minor tonality progressions, 2) as a dominant substitution, e.g., phrygian dominant (mode five of harmonic minor) over a dominant 7th chord w/ a #5 and a b9, and, 3) when the composer or improvisor wants to hear the specific "flavor" of the scale over a static minor chord 'vamp' or minor tonailty progression.

I just performed a piece of mine the other night that used a B/C chord. Not, Bmaj with C in the bass, but Bmajor/Cmajor. I wrote it as a fraction more like this though:

B
---
C


The bass player is laying down a strong C, and if you spell it upwards, it's

C E G B D# F#

Which is Cmaj7(#9#11)

I also used E harmonic minor over it when improvising. The way I used the chord in context was much more as a C chord rather than an inversion of a B chord.

My entire piece was a study in altered Maj7 chords. I also used a Gmaj7(b9b13) in it.

[jzucker]

Herbie Hancock had an Abmaj7b9 chord in one of his tunes.

Jeremy,

Has Frase shown you a copy of my book, Sheets of Sound for Guitar yet?

[Poparad]

Originally posted by jzucker Herbie Hancock had an Abmaj7b9 chord in one of his tunes. Jeremy, Has Frase shown you a copy of my book, Sheets of Sound for Guitar yet?

 

 

Not yet, I just had my lesson with him this morning, so maybe I'll e-mail him and ask him to bring it next week.

 

I'm planning on buying a copy as soon as I get some spare cash anyway. From the examples I've seen it's just the sort of technique/musical idea thing I'm looking for to add to my vocabulary/ability.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by Poparad Not yet, I just had my lesson with him this morning, so maybe I'll e-mail him and ask him to bring it next week. I'm planning on buying a copy as soon as I get some spare cash anyway. From the examples I've seen it's just the sort of technique/musical idea thing I'm looking for to add to my vocabulary/ability.

 

 

Weird. One of the reasons I gave him a copy was to show you and some of his other advanced students...

 

We should get together sometime...

[Poparad]

Originally posted by jzucker Weird. One of the reasons I gave him a copy was to show you and some of his other advanced students... We should get together sometime...

 

 

I was going to call you this week about that (well, I will tonight then I guess). The Bop Stop jam is back on after two weeks off (one for a holiday, another was due to a recital at Akron that tied up the house band members). I'll be going up there this Sunday the 18th, perhaps I'll see you out there.

[jzucker]

P.S.

Tell me a bedtime story is the "herbie" tune with a b9 in the melody over a Maj7 chord. Sounds great!

[Paul J. Edwards]

I one played an altered secondary dominant chord in a free form jazz blues thingy and I almost hurt myself.
The audience was quite upset.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by Paul J. Edwards I one played an altered secondary dominant chord in a free form jazz blues thingy and I almost hurt myself. The audience was quite upset.

Not sure what you mean by "altered secondary dominant chord".

Do you mean a IV ALT chord or are you being funny? If so, please forgive my humor impairment!

[Paul J. Edwards]

Originally posted by jzucker Not sure what you mean by "altered secondary dominant chord". Do you mean a IV ALT chord or are you being funny? If so, please forgive my humor impairment!

Well it was my poor attempt at humor.

A secondary dominant is the V of the V in the key you are in.
Altered means it is not just a straight 7th chord but would have an altered note in it like a b5 .

Jazz uses this type of chord substitution al lot.

For example if you are at the last bar of a 12 bar blues in A you can go from Bb7 to A7 instead of the E7 to A7.
The Bb7 is the flat 5 of the 5 which is E.

See this is why I got injured!!!!

Someone help me..........

[jzucker]

Originally posted by Paul J. Edwards Well it was my poor attempt at humor. A secondary dominant is the V of the V in the key you are in. Altered means it is not just a straight 7th chord but would have an altered note in it like a b5 . Jazz uses this type of chord substitution al lot. For example if you are at the last bar of a 12 bar blues in A you can go from Bb7 to A7 instead of the E7 to A7. The Bb7 is the flat 5 of the 5 which is E. See this is why I got injured!!!! Someone help me..........

 

 

Actually, ALT nomenclature typically refers to a chord built off of Super Locrian (7th mode of melodic minor)

 

A Bb7 going to A is not a secondary dominant but a tritone substitution. B7 would be the secondary dominant chord in that Cadence (i.e. B7 - E7 then back to A)

 

Jaz