Singingax, let's give it another go!

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax 1) As usual you talking about tones when that isn't what the 12 BBB are. (though they can be)

 

 

One might argue that the BBB is the tones. In tonal music, at least.

 

Again, you do what you can to avoid the counter arguments, not surprisingly.

[Gui]

Originally posted by Singingax You also believe it's a third (major) because it's 3 letters apart. How about because it's the 3rd step in a major scale's formula. Or won't your CNC indoctrination allow you to accept that?

You believe it's a third because of your Nashville indoctrination.

How about because it is logical to name something based on the name you give it.

Or won't your Nashville indoctrination allow you to accept that?

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax No I don't paly the blues. But I do play the blues. The b3rd, b5th and b7th ARE considered blues tones. (primarily the b3rd)

Damn!

My point was, that when actually playing those notes, it's my experience that the real blues sound happens when you bend that b3rd just a little, so it's not really major nor minor. And that b5 isn't that interesting if it's not "in motion" it's the movement of your fingers that creates those hard to define blues notes - that's my point of view, anyway.

I think Jimi Hendrix use that exact (and common) trick in his Purple Haze-intro - listen to that third note of the lick (it's been a while since I've listended to it, so don't hang me up on it).

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Debating the best way to name the 12 BBB? Hardly. Tones, notes, and pitches, (mostly of the natural scale no less) but not the 12 BBB.

Those 12 BBB happen to be pitches, which are also tones and notes (what are difference between those two, by the way?).

If not, what are those 12 BBB for?

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Again, you may be talking about quarter-tones but the ones I mentioned are generally excepted AS blue tones. (but maybe not in Denmark)

 

 

Yes, they are - but we bend those notes to make it bluesy. That's why piano players have a hard time sounding real bluesy, they have to play both intervals at almost the same time to get same effect.

 

You don't bend your blues tones?

 

And I'm not talking about quarter-tones, I'm talking about notes in motion. But you don't get that, it seems.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Those 12 BBB are for making music. (as pitches and tones)

 

 

All right, you said before that we were going off-topic by talking about pitches, tones and notes when the argument was about what you call the 12 BBB. Now look at what you wrote yourself and consider your statement, OK?

[Gui]

Originally posted by Singingax 1) No. I know it's a major 3rd because it's the third step in the major scale. (did you eat paint chips when you we're a kid?) 2) Because it's the third letter of the CNC? Uh,...... no. 3) See 2).

Its not logical to to call an interval a third if it is separated by 4 or 5 BBB.

O to R is a third yet it is 4 BBB apart.
O to S is also a third yet it is 5 BBB apart.
BOTH are thirds??

This is BS. Why can't they have their own intervals? Illogical in my opinion. And why do you feel the need to insult me? If you feel the need to insult me, at least use correct grammar.

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Singingax You also believe it's a third (major) because it's 3 letters apart. How about because it's the 3rd step in a major scale's formula. Or won't your CNC indoctrination allow you to accept that?

How about this--you're wrong! In this particular instance, it isn't a matter of opinion or perspective. You're just plain wrong! You don't know your stuff! A 3rd is named as such because it is three letters apart, not because it's the third step in a major scale. That's basic music theory. If somebody taught you differently, they taught you wrong. Plain and simple, you're wrong.

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Singingax The only bubble that needs bursting is the one involving your 7 letter indoctrination. And THAT is a simple fact. Stand clear for transmission--you finally cornered yourself by making a massively incorrect statement. When you count intervals you're counting the steps of the major scale. The CNC happens to be based upon the major scale (and the C major scale at that) so the 7 letters (to which you CNC users don't seem to be able to see beyond) have that formula within it. (for the C major scale when unaltered) Wrong. I don't know where you got this idea, but it is incorrect. The interval between the root and the third in a major scale FORMULA is the distance between O and R, which IS 4 half-steps Here we go: say, for instance, that I'm playing over a G# octatonic scale. The first four notes are G#, A, B, C. The interval here between G# and C is four half-steps, but it isn't a major 3rd. It's a diminished 4th. Now let's say, for instance, that I'm playing in Ab major. The first three notes are Ab, Bb, C. The interval between Ab and C is four half-steps, and this time it is a major 3rd. Your system can't deal with this! (Nor can you). You can't calculate intervals strictly by a major scale, which is appearantly what you've been doing this entire time. You can have 12 BBB's, but you absolutely have to change the nomenclature for intervals. Sorry dude, that's just how it works. The fact that you seem to think it's the distance between three letters (and the three letters of the C major scale no less) is just further proof that you've been indoctrinated into the CNC. See above. Try thinking of the major scale as a generic formula, (like the Nashville system does) and not "three letters":rolleyes: and maybe you will start to see the light. 1-2-3-4-5-6-7= Major scale (Ionian Mode) RT+W(2)+W(3)+H(4)+W(5)+W(6)+W(7) How exactly will Nashville deal with scales that don't contain seven notes? Wait a minute, it can't!

 

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax You really have a type A personality, don't you?

I just post those things to get you going when you're being lazy you know

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax 1) Correction. In YOUR opinion I'm using it incorrectly. What's logical to one person might not be logical to another, as your calling the CNC on a SOTGF logical shows.

No, you've lost this one and you can't admit it cause you're too arrogant. Logic means, for instance, that something follows a system. There's nothing subjective about the meaning of logic here. Music notation is logical, as is the system you're advocating.

2) S-T-U-V-W-X-Y-Z-O-P-Q-R works for me.

It's very hard to see what you're making all this fuss about then cause it's the same thing as C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#-G-G#-A-A#-B. It really makes no difference at all.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax As usual you talking about tones when that isn't what the 12 BBB are. (though they can be)4)

 

 

If I understand you correctly the 12 basic building blocks you mean the chromatic scale, all the 12 pitches in one octave of the tempered scale. Is that it? Or do you mean something else?

 

And in that case I still say that the chromatic scale isn't the first place to start, cause it's not what makes up our music really. It's based on 3rds.

 

 

Agreed! That's why I don't mind the Nashville systems GENERIC use of the major scale as it's basic formula.

 

 

You know, for some things that's more practical, I've always said that. And for some instruments, like the guitar. Why? Cause we can shift position to play in another key so then it can be confusing to have a chord progression for instance, written in one key while playing in another.

 

For a horn player the benefit of the Nashville system, as you prefer to call it, aren't as obvious. And some people can read music notation and easily transpose in their mind. It's not the fault of the system that you lack this capacity.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax No I don't paly the blues. But I do play the blues. The b3rd, b5th and b7th ARE considered blues tones. (primarily the b3rd)

You mean to tell me that you're playing the blues and you actually look upon the b3, b5 and b7 as fixed pitches?

You're silly enough to do that I suppose...

Although, I have to admit that here we have one of the limitations of the notatin system, it doesn't really allow for these blue notes to be notated correctly either. I've seen it done with little + and - signs, but you really need to hear it.

But the biggest problem for classical notation here is the rhythm (as always) and what still can't be notated at all is a shuffle rhtyhm. Now, that's a real problem.

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Terje But the biggest problem for classical notation here is the rhythm (as always) and what still can't be notated at all is a shuffle rhtyhm. Now, that's a real problem.

Rhythm, like pitch, is flexible in sheet music. There are plenty of examples of music being notated in a manner that isn't 100% mathematically accurate to the composer's intentions. Verbal instructions are often written in the music to give a clearer explanation. Mahler did this quite a bit, especially with triplets. He liked the sound of the triplets being rushed, so he indicated for it to be played that way. In some instances, the rhythmic variance in the notation is implied by the style. Viennese waltzes, klezmer, and swing are all good examples of this. Thus, there is a way to notate a shuffle rhythm: write the word "shuffle" in the upper left-hand corner of the page and trust the musicians to know what a shuffle is.

[Terje]

Originally posted by riffdaddy Thus, there is a way to notate a shuffle rhythm: write the word "shuffle" in the upper left-hand corner of the page and trust the musicians to know what a shuffle is.

I know

The thing is though that some other rhythms can be written without this type of instruction. On the other hand that's a very academic note cause no music can be played from just reading the paper, you need to hear it. That goes for classical too.

Once you know the system, have heard some music and made the connection, then you can play stuff prima vista, but no notation system in the world works for people who have never heard that type of music ever.

Just like written languages actually. if there's some way to break the code we can read ancient texts, but when there isn't any way to breal the coed we have no clue.

[arasmith]

Originally posted by Singingax 1) No. I mean the 12 BBB. They make up ALL the pitches (when set like with 440=A) of ALL the octaves.

 

 

(0) Let me prenumber my post to save you time)

 

1) I would have thought that 440=T

 

2) Tell me what "O" is. Is it fixed on the fretboard or does it vary based on the root of the particular song that is being played?

 

3-5) When you play with someone else (3 cases: guitarist, pianist, horn or sax) and you start a song, how do you let them know the key you're in?

[arasmith]

Originally posted by Singingax 0) Thanks! 1) Actually, it's 440=X. When you tune X to 440, the other 11 BBB assume thier position around it. (X+half-step=Y, Y+half-step=Z) And that applies to ALL the octaves thereof. 2) O is fixed. Just like the BBB of the tempered scale and the fretboard. 3) If I'm playing in the key of X, I tell them the key of A. (if they're using the CNC)

 

 

1) Okay so (hopefully this will line up in the browser)

OPQRSTUVWXYZ

C D EF G A B

 

2) Thus,

standard tuning becomes: SXQVZS

open C: OVOVOS

dadgad: QXQVXQ

open D: QXQUXQ

 

3) Piano player starts playing a rag in Y, I capo up 3 and play in V, right?

 

4) How is this helping me?

 

---david

[Gui]

Originally posted by Singingax 1) Exsqueeze me? Baking your powder? A minor third on ANY tempered scaled instrument is 4 half-steps, a major third is 5 half-steps. Again, you're so indoctrinated in the CNC that you can't see past the letters to the basic theory behind them. 2) O to R is a minor third. O to S is a major third. To get a minor third you go up 4 half-steps and to get a major third you go up 5 half-steps. Unlike the CNC, O-Z follows the half-steps. (a better way, IMO, to do it)

I don't know what "baking your powder" means.

Forget about the CNC. If we are going to do stuff logically, I am going to use OZ. I am no longer talking about CNC. In OZ, notes do not have to share names. This makes sense. But if intervals are not calculated by counting notes, it doesn't make sense. I am not being CNC indoctrinated here. I'm trying to make sense of intervals from the perspective of someone who likes things to be named logically. If there are 12 BBB, then an octave should be called a 13th. Using the correct numbers for naming intervals would remove the confusion.

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Singingax Oh, really? Well I better use three letters then. The CNC indoctrination must really do a number on your cognitive functions. Three letters makes it a third, LMAO.

WOW--let me get this straight--so every theory text written over the last 500 years is wrong, and you're right? We're not talking about a matter of opinion here. We're talking about you being wrong--which you are. Like I said, I don't know who taught you differently, but interval names are based on letters.

Where exactly do you think you gained this superior knowledge of music theory?

Do you have a concept of admitting being wrong? Do you know how?

[arasmith]

Originally posted by Singingax ... 4) I don't know how it's helping you, but it helps me locate where the 12 BBB are on a SOTGF and allows me to learn the 12 half-step relationships between ALL the 12 BBB. ...

 

 

Okay, I'm looking at my guitar right now. The intervals (relationships) are patterns on the fretboard. From that standpoint, neither CNC nor OZ are of any further assistance after learning the rudimentary locations. That I know how to construct various chords and voicings relies more (in my playing) on finger memory than thinking "oo, if I could just find a D somewhere."

 

Both CNC and OZ are, in this way, just pneumonics for finding my way around the strings and frets. E.g. "If I just slide this position up two frets then I will get the sound I'm looking for" (or being told to look for ,depending on the context).

 

Theory does inform my playing, but it is telling me what to play not how. Theory tells me that a 2m would be a good transitional chord in a particular spot. Given the repetitive nature of the fretboard, making the 2m happen during the song is a pattern. The underlying symbols mean very little at the end of the day. Maybe I'm just a shape guy.

 

Sorry for the rambling. To summarize, my point is that

(A) neither CNC nor OZ nor any other naming construct is of tremendous lasting value for application to the fretboard beyond learning locations.

 

given (A):

(B) since the SOTGF is only a transitional tool, then I will stay with CNC since it communicates beyond the confines of a {name your instrument} fretboard.

 

not given (A):

we agree to disagree.

 

---david

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax 1) Yes, the CNC follows a system.

 

 

Hence it is logical. Can we agree on that?

 

 

Do you know what that system is? The natural scale! It doesn't mean the CNC should automatically be used for the tempered scaled system.

 

 

Good point. However, and I know you don't believe me, the natural scale is still what we hear. It's because of the overtones that every note has, they don't care about the fact that we introduced the tempered scale centuries ago, they follow the natural scale still.

 

And thus the major 3rds tend to sound out of tune. And for this reason people who can do it still adjust the pitch of their instruments, this goes for violins, vocalists and slide players for instance.

 

Piano players are {censored}ed but at least the keys on their instrument are tuned individually. On the guitar it's just a mess if you're fretting since you can onlly tune each string individually, and each strings has almost two chromatic octaves.

 

So, even if you don't hear it my tonedeaf friend, a major 3rd should still be a little lower if possible. This is still reflected in the notation system and I think this is a good, and pretty logical thing.

 

 

Somewhat. The difference being that one doesn't need accidentals to name ALL 12 BBB.

 

 

OK, a very small difference, perhaps only important for those with very small brains. In one system some of the notes get a combination of two symbols, in the other they get one symbol each. It's not evident which one is easier to learn actually.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax 1) In the tempered scale, YES!

 

 

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but if you play the b3, b5 and b7 as fixed pitches in a blues then you don't know how to play the blues.

 

If you think of the blues scale as a tempered scale then you're dumber than I thought.

[riffdaddy]

Perhaps you'd also like to define "natural scale". If you're talking about the scale created by the overtone series, it's actually a lydian dominant scale (not a major scale). The CNC isn't based on lydian dominant, so you're wrong here too.

[MorePaul]

Alas - I have a funeral of good friend to attend.

I notice that Axe no longer reads my replies -- I think it's mainly because I had to point him toward OZ, yet see and embrace traditional methods as well.

Sort of puts a wrench in the ole "you can't see it because you are diatonically indoctrinated" deal. Which is, why he hides.

Axe - I have a number of issues with your analysis -- last time you just decided "well, you should take that up with Greschak" and "you are overintellectuallizing" (which I find odd considering you are talking about a system that requires translation tables and was designed to aid in mapping math models to music).
Please remember it was the "overintellectualizing" legwork that led to your awareness of the OZ system (as opposed to your 'more practical'? approach of trying - and failing- to reinvent the wheel)

I have suggested some source materials. I doubt you will actually look at these as they are not accessible in a goolge search. They are, however, true explorations of the topics. Something 5 weeks and a single web-page lack

Some things to consider...

Tempered and untempered systems really aren't different. Tempered systems are derived from an untempered system . That's what tempered MEANS(please ref the definition of "temper", for a full discussion on this musically - please ref the Issacoff works I mentioned previosuly -- note -- he's a full on Equal temperament dude! he brings up a few things you may be very interested in...like "building blocks" of course, he only uses 4)

I was once like you...you don't think my exploration into n-tone tonalities, chromastaff, OZ, etc was just random do you?

you are missing a lot of the information that traditional systems impart (you are having to use an extra translation layer to get there -- that's ovetly intellectual).

I'll be gone for about 10 days...

Axe - I don't really expect you to address these concerns as it is outside your dogma and much easier for you just to igore - but give it a shot!

Others have considered my opinions and commented appropriately.

I understand the need to hide - it's a natural part of the learning process.

We are making progress though -- seriously -- you were attacking, now you are hiding....this is a VERY COMMON part of the process -- don't feel ashamed or embarrassed -- no one is here to hurt you.
you've opened your min in one direction (remember how you used to thing there was no system that fit what you wanted), but you've closed your mind.

I realize you aren't interested in improving yur musicianship, but understanding the other systems will improve your listeninging - seriously!

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax A major scale FORMULA gives you the intervals. 1 is the root and the first step. 2 is the second step in a major scale and is called a major second. 3 is the third step in a major scale and is called a major third. If you want the major scale of X, (which is A in the CNC) you just apply the FORMULA for the major scale to the O-Z starting with X as the root.

 

 

So, you'd still think in formulas and patterns, right? I really don't see the difference.

 

 

Originally posted by Singingax Again, I really don't like talking about sheet music, or the CNC which it is based upon, because they are used to name TONES. They had to do it that way because the natural scale doesn't have 12 BBB like the tempered scale does. (at least when played in different keys)

 

 

They really didn't have to do it that way. They did so becasue it felt natural and logical to have a system that reflected the music the sang and played, which was centered around 7, not 12 notes - as most Western music today.