Singingax, let's give it another go!

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Actually, from what I understand, it has to do with the letter D being used. Just look at the major scales in the CNC. (all 17 of them:eek:) None of the letters repeat.

 

 

We call them scales for a reason, yes (If you are talking within one scale at a time).

 

In classical theory, the most important note is without question the leading tone - and the root. There's a very good reason for letting the leading tone be C#, and not Db in the key of D.

[skatom]

Originally posted by Singingax You'll find a Db functioning as a third of A in some keys.

 

 

Okay, here you've just dashed most of your credibility in this debate - it shows perfectly how you don't fully understand the CNC.

[skatom]

Originally posted by Singingax Which key is a Db functioning as a third? As is typical of you CNC indotrinees, you only see things from the key signature. The notes within those keys can (and do) function as more that just tones relative to the key note. So just pick a key that uses a Db (Db, Gb, Ab) and you'll see.

 

 

You said "You'll find a Db functioning as a third of A in some keys."

 

Give an example of a key where Db functions as the major or minor third of a chord where an A note (or Ab, or A#) is the root.

 

Go on, I dare you.

[skatom]

Singingax, you keep on saying that the CNC has 'inconsistencies.'

Without simply pulling out "When looking at a SOTGF" or "On a Sabine tuner" (yes yes, I've got a chromatic tuner too), give us one practical, musical example of an inconsistency in the CNC, in a real-world context. Come on here, I'm looking for something to actually make me think, if only to reinforce my own understanding of the CNC.

Oh, and technically, as far as I've been taught, there are only 12 keys, not 17, and I learnt the 'cycle of fifths' according to this table which demonstrates them -

Major Key
No. of #'s of b's
Minor key

keys with sharps:
C G D A E B F#C#
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
A E B F#C#G#D#A#

keys with flats:
C F BbEbAbDbGbCb
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
A D G C F BbEbAb

[skatom]

Originally posted by Singingax I don't have any desire to fully understand the CNC. (I guess I should have said Ab)

 

 

But my point is, if you did, you wouldnt need to come up with a system to name your 12BBBs. You would realise that the CNC, with its reference to major keys, and naming their 7BBBs, is consistent, sufficient, efficient, comprehensive, and as somebody before me has said, Not That Hard to understand.

 

By the way, a Db, D, or D# is never the third of a chord with root Ab, A, or A#.

[skatom]

Originally posted by Singingax But you're right, there are no major scales that call the BBB that can function as a third tone of the A note a Db in the CNC because only the third letter (C) can do this. (feel better now) Just keep avoiding a SOTGF with the CNC on it. Else you'll see that 4 half-steps up from the A is a C#/Db. Which is a third. Now, if I had been indoctrinated into the CNC I wouldn't have said the Db is a third of A because it's the fourth letter. But outside of the CNC indoctrination (and in the equal tempered scale) a Db is indeed a third of A. (a major third)

Ahh, better now, we're getting somewhere .

But, you're still wrong. In the equal tempered scale, Db is still the diminished fourth of A, even though pitch-wise it is the same as a C#. I can see where you're coming from here - but as soon as you start actually playing music, the two designations for the same pitch must be used. The two names, indeed all enharmonic equivalency, allows context to be incorporated, as, believe it or not, a dim4 has a different function to a maj3. If a dim4 suddenly became the same as a maj3, then the musical context, regardless of what nomenclature you are using, would be shot to pieces. This is why the CNC has double sharps, and generally two names for the same pitch (in equal temperament) - to incorporate tonal context into one simple designation, without having to resort to a lead sheet to ascertain context.

And a while back, I pointed out how the Nashville system, with its numbers 1-7 and accidentals denoting alterations, validates the need for accidentals around 7 BBBs instead of discrete designations for all 12BBBs, otherwise, an OZ C7#9 could indeed be written as O(X)®. But it's not, as you said before, you would prefer O7#9. See what I mean? Naming all 12BBBs with unchanging designations (as in OaddXaddR) removes musical context.

And besides, it seems that I have been using the Nashville system without even knowing it - when communicating, I usually refer to chord progressions by numbers - A-7, D-7, Cmaj7 I've always referred to as "IIm7, V7, Imaj7." Correct me if this is not what the Nashville system entails.

[skatom]

Originally posted by Singingax Well then you should immediately contact the Sabine tuner company and tell them that you know what to put in place of the 5 dots they use.

Sharps. I'm an optimist .

In the context of a tuner, fair enough - chromatic tuners aren't confined by key.

But tonal music is.

[skatom]

Originally posted by Singingax Again, to all who debated sincerely, I thank you.

That's cool!

I think I'm out, too. I've made my points, and I'll agree to disagree, even though we're disagreeing on different things .

Thanks,

tommy b.

[skatom]

Oh - and I hope whatever system you work out works for you, and good luck for your future musical development. Hey, that's what it's all about after all!

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Yeah, I'm funny about wanting to know what you mean when you say something. It comes from arguing about the equal tempered scale and it's 12 BBB and then have CNC proponents start talking about the non-fixed pitches of the natural scale because that supports what they're saying. It's like your "calling a C# a "natural" note within the F# major" argument. (I belive it's referred to as a natural tone)

 

 

You are acting like a complete jerk here. I tried to help your understanding of the system, sorry...

 

 

 

Originally posted by Singingax You mean in the 17 major scales that the wacked out CNC has? Sorry, just 1. As usual you avoid the major scales (and any other points I make that aren't refutable) as they are written out. Go back and check out the 17 major scales I wrote out in a previous post and see. Or you can just ignore it like the other points I've made that can't be refuted. (I understand)

 

 

I haven't avoided that at all. I said some of the scales would be weird looking, but theoretically, you could have scales starting from Cb, Dbb, Ebb, Fb, Gb, Abb, and Bbb. I'm not saying it would work well, but it's possible. This is the third or fourth time I point this out, and it's not a really good point, though it shows the consistancy of the system.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax You don't agree (and refuse to see otherwise) because of your indoctrination. That's why you "don't agree" or see.

 

 

If that makes you feel better, let's say so. The fact that I haven't had formal training at all until just a few years ago is not important in this matter...

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Singingax The 12 BBB are used to create tones. They aren't tones in and of themselves. (contrary to what your CNC indoctrination tells you) And yes, once again I have been sucked into an argument about how the CNC names tones. (using 7 letters) Since I've got the time to waste it's a fun way to pass the time. (when I get an honest debate, which isn't often)

 

 

In Western music, there are 7 BBB, not 12, one might argue.

 

 

Originally posted by Singingax Maybe. But it's usually in reaction to the quibbling on the other side of the debate.

 

 

You call this quibbling: "Blues notes goes beyond the 12 BBB, you know". That's how the blues debate was started by me...

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Which key is a Db functioning as a third? As is typical of you CNC indotrinees, you only see things from the key signature. The notes within those keys can (and do) function as more that just tones relative to the key note. So just pick a key that uses a Db (Db, Gb, Ab) and you'll see.

 

 

Come on, tell me more of all the keys in which Db functions as a third of A.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Singingax Besides human errors what's the difference?

 

 

Feeling. Expression. Intensity. Human touch.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Yup. The main reason being that the letter is already being used. Just look at the 17 major scales I posted. The letters never repeat.

 

 

We call them scales for a reason, yes.

[qwerty]

Good luck, guys. Please remember that note nates whatever they may be, are tools and not politics.



Hey Ax, I hope you've learned that the major third to A is *not* all those names. There is only *one* name for A's major third whether you are using standard notes (or using OZ!).

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Oh, of course. Since I haven't been indoctrinated I "would of course perceive it in the wrong way".

Exactly.

Originally posted by Singingax I'm hung up on names?

Yep. You obviously can't see past the fact that it's called a "natural" sign.

Originally posted by Singingax You're the one arguing about whether a BBB should be called a sharp this or a flat that.

No, I'm not. I'm just saying there's a point in letting them share names - all of them. Let these be the last words of the debate, and I'm glad.