Singingax, let's give it another go!

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax 1) Quite easily, that's how. Especially because you wouldn't be playing musical chairs with the names of 5 of the 12 BBB. If you play a tempered instrument you're already using the 12 BBB, but chances are you're naming them with the natural scale derived CNC. 2) The "true" concept of the BBB are shown on a SOTGF. If you restate your question I'll tell you why I wrote it as an answer. 4) I AM! And the reason I discuss it is because it's fun to discuss why we use a natural scale derived naming system (which I think we shouldn't) for a tempered scaled instrument.

 

 

1) But hey, the CNC system works inside of diatonic sheet music - thus, also the actual playing of it - don't you agree? Or I have misundestood your point again, it seems. Remember that within diatonic music, it is logical to use accidentals, we've been through that.

 

2) It's not music, though.

 

4) You're right, it is fun.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Wrongamoongo! The keyboard has 12 BBB, just like the guitar, and therefore ends up playing musical chairs to name 5 of them, just like the guitar. Nice try though.

You're seriouisly claiming that sheet music for piano isn't comparable with tab for guitar?

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Just look at a SOTGF with the CNC on it with an unbiased eye and see.

That's impossible to me - I look at it, and it makes sense.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax Maybe I should open a deprogramming center for musicians.

Excellent idea -- you can be the first patient!

axe - " There's really nothing to leverage when it comes to the 12 basic building blocks."

Um, maybe OZ notation

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax I sure am. Again, I hate to get into a discussion about sheet music, but the natural notes represent the white keys only. If they had natural notes for ALL 12 keys, then I might consider it comparable.

OK, I see your point, my point was that both systems shows you the way of playing that particular piece on that instrument - I hope you see my point, too.

Originally posted by Singingax 1) Just because you use only 7 of the 12 BBB at any one time doesn't mean you should only use 7 designations. 2) Besides, when I'm improvising, I'm usually thinking of more than 1 mode or scale. And they tend to include blues notes as well so they end up being more than 7.

1) Now I'll argue that the F# of G major is a fixed designation as is the Gb of Eb minor, and then we'll start over... so I won't.

2) The actual blues notes go beyond the 12 BBB, you know. The blues is happening between the 3rds, 4rds and 5ths, and so on.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax I sure am. Again, I hate to get into a discussion about sheet music, but the natural notes represent the white keys only. If they had natural notes for ALL 12 keys, then I might consider it comparable.

 

Remember not to confuse "natural" notes with essentials.

 

#/b are accidental when it is used to describe an enharmonic (an accidental) in a key. The unmodified notes are known as essentials. To properly understand traditional staff notation you must keep key signature in mind (it is a diatonically oriented form of notation). So in pracitce, you snapshot the key sig and read essentials as unmodifieds

 

 

There is Chromastaff notation as well that Axe might like, axe read that "sourcebook" and you'll be good to go

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by MorePaul Originally posted by riffdaddy I would question the missing information less if there was a distinct pattern to the fretboard (MorePaul will now begin discussing isomorphic tunings, and somehow standard tuning will be referred to as "the squirrel" The reason I mention it as "the squirrel" to axe is from an earlier conversation with him about using CAGED shapes... he said "I bet it'd be even more squirrely in an isomorphic tuning" To which I respondend "It doesn't, it's nice in that E and A forms, for instance are the same. A CAGED type view actually simplifies and becomes less Squirrely" to which he replied "Well, I'm used to the squirrel" so it's sort of an joke between axe and myself. Isomorphic tunings wouldn't help much with the pattern based on diatonic filtering of informaion. The diatonic information isn't evenly distributed within the octave, so will you still get an irregular (within an octave) pattern across a more regular interface. Claviers are an interesting counterpoint in hat the topology of the interface is sort of "scaled" in parallel with the filter. This yields I liken it to using log sclae graphs. Riff - I believe you may be misunderstanding my points. Please do not automatically put me on the group W bench. Paul, it was a JOKE. Lighten up, buddy. I'm with you.

[MorePaul]

Sorry dude, stress level exceeding factory specs

On edge at work and it leaks through (very stressful, I might have to cut a couple of my guys - I'm trying to make a case to keep 'em)

In battle mode for my homies

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by MorePaul Sorry dude, stress level exceeding factory specs On edge at work and it leaks through (very stressful, I might have to cut a couple of my guys - I'm trying to make a case to keep 'em) In battle mode for my homies

 

 

Ouch! I can sort of relate, though I have the exact opposite problem. Because I have the boss's trust, he lets me play a critical role in hiring guys in my department (we're a semi-small music shop and I sort of run the guitar dept.). I knew two of the other three guys who were there when I started, and as they left I replaced them with more of my friends. Big mistake. The first one we hired turned out to be a much bigger pothead than I could have ever imagined. He stares blankly at the computer screen for minutes, spends a lot of time "testing" the merchandise, and generally doesn't get {censored} done. The second guy would have had a much better work ethic, but he figured out early on what the first guy was getting away with and followed suit. The third guy is great--he's cooperative, he's motivated, he gets the job done. Unfortunately, 90% of what he does is shipping and warehouse work. Thus, he is seldom at my disposal. Unfortunately, I can help hire 'em, but I can't fire 'em. They are my assistants until they decide to get different jobs. Consequently, I do about 75% of the work and make only marginally more money than them. Damn.

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Terje It's the same for any instrument excapt any of the keyboards. For them notation is like tabulature is to us. But for a horn player the notation system has its own problems too.

Exactly. In addition to the guitar thing, I'm also a trumpet guy. Trumpet has what might be considered a very illogical finger pattern (it's dictated entirely by nature, so there actually is a strange logic to it--but it ain't mathematically sound). Playing with all three valves open gives you the harmonic series starting on middle C (minus the fundamental, which does not exist on the instrument due to the actual physical construction--wierd, huh?). Depressing the first valve lowers the pitch by two half-steps. Depressing the second valve lowers the pitch by one half-step. Depressing the third valve lowers the pitch by three half-steps. Some instruments also have a fourth valve, which lowers the pitch by five half-steps. Now keep track of all of that while simultaneously reading sheet music. Now add in that the part must be transposed up a second or a fourth or a fifth--while reading and keeping track of those damn fingerings.

Additionally, trumpet players must learn to play instruments in the key of Bb, C, D, Eb, and A--and be able to transpose any of them to any other key (there are some historical precedents to why trumpet players are forced to transpose so much, but I won't go into the history of the instrument here). All of these things are considered mandatory by the end of your first year in college--usually your eighth or ninth year playing the instrument.

So how do trumpet players do it? We just play the damn notes--that's how. If a trumpet player needs to play an F#, he plays an F#. He doesn't have to get out a fingering chart to figure out where an F# is--if you've been playing the instrument for more than a year, you're expected to know that kind of thing. So why do guitarists have so much trouble doing that? Why can't a guitarist play an F# on every string without counting or looking at a chart? In short, why are guitar players allowed to be so damn stupid? We should be holding ourselves to higher standards, people.

Oh wait--that's why this forum is here.

In summary, my real point here is that the notes are actually quite a bit harder on the trumpet. I've never met a trumpet player, however, who felt that a special nomenclature was needed to explain the pitches on his instrument.

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Singingax Q7#9 chord. Q=Rt U=3rd X=5th O=b7th T=#9th

Wrong dude. You eradicated accidentals. Thus, you can't have a #9. What would you like to call it instead?

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax Wrongamoongo! The keyboard has 12 BBB, just like the guitar, and therefore ends up playing musical chairs to name 5 of them, just like the guitar. Nice try though.

They happen to be black keys on the piano. There are technical advantages to having them like that, they're higher up than the other keys and piano players use this for different thing. If there was no purpose with the construction something else would have come along. And unlike the guitar each note has only one location.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax 2) b3rds, b5ths and b7ths are all within the 12 BBB.

 

 

Notice my choice of words: _between_ the 3rds, 5ths and so on... Those bended notes aren't parts of the BBB, most definately.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax Maybe from a perspective of someone who has been indoctrinated into the CNC. (and it's natural scale) But NOT when dealing with the 12 BBB of the tempered scale. Just look at a SOTGF with the CNC on it with an unbiased eye and see.

You're still using the word logic incorrectly. Using your beloved schematic for the first 12 frets on the first string we get this:

E-F-#/b-G-#/b-A-#/b-B-C-#/b-D-#/b-E

There's nothing illogical about that. It follows a system. Now, the fact that you don't like the system is another thing. Am I getting through to you?

[arasmith]

Originally posted by Terje ...Am I getting through to you?

 

 

Uh, no. Not after 200 posts or so. It is clear to me that SA does not want to listen or truly engage in productive dialog. Restating the same point over and over and over and over.... just doesn't cut it. Let's move on.

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Singingax I eradicated accidentals? Maybe from a CNC indoctrinated perspective. I think accidentals are great when it comes to describing what tone a BBB is functioning as. But using them because you have 12 BBB and only 7 designations (like with the CNC) is something worthy of eradication. If a BBB is FUNCTIONING as a b3rd, then accidentals work for me. But using them because a BBB is one of the 5 not named in the CNC, (you know, one of the black keys) I'll pass.

 

 

Now we're back to the interval thing again...Proof again that you actually don't get this. You want to give each pitch class a unique name, but you don't want to change the interval functions that are associated with the CNC. When you count intervals, you're actually counting the letter names from one note to the next. Thus, the interval between E and G is a minor third in the CNC. In your system, the interval between O and R would actually be considered a fourth.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble here. It's just a simple fact.

[Terje]

Look, now it's getting harder for him... so he won't reply... showing us how weak he is again

[Gui]

i believe it is illogical to call an interval a 3rd if it is 4 basic building blocks apart.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Gui i believe it is illogical to call an interval a 3rd if it is 4 basic building blocks apart.

Where does this idea of "basic building blocks" come from anyway? Is there anyone out there who actually calls the chormatic scale this? Why?

If you play music you will know that the most "basic building block" you have to deal with are the major and minor 3rds. That's what we hear in our minds, that's what we make melodies from. I mean seriously, hum me a great melody that's really chromatic...

The only one I can think of is Blue Monk, and here the chromatic notes are still passing tones, not the blocks on which the melody is built

There is a reason why the major scale is used as the basic pattern for our notation system. It's practical since this is the pattern we will see again and again.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Terje If you play music you will know that the most "basic building block" you have to deal with are the major and minor 3rds. That's what we hear in our minds, that's what we make melodies from. I mean seriously, hum me a great melody that's really chromatic... B]

There is this "circus-clown" tune: "dab, dab, dabdabdabdab, dab-dab-dab-dab" which is actually chromatic most of the way, maybe it is Blue Monk, I don't know.

[Terje]

Originally posted by vote4dicktaid There is this "circus-clown" tune: "dab, dab, dabdabdabdab, dab-dab-dab-dab" which is actually chromatic most of the way, maybe it is Blue Monk, I don't know.

I like the way you hum it...

Of course there are good melodies out there that are very chromatic but mostly this is not what we hear and I think it's historically wrong to view the chromatic scale as what we've built our music on. Hence I think it is totally wrong to call the chromatic scale for something so stupid as the 12 basic building blocks.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Terje I like the way you hum it...

Glad you recognized it! An interesting thing is that the melody does sort of follow the diatonic concepts, with T, D7 and this is actually what makes it melodic.

(edited for typo)

[Terje]

Originally posted by vote4dicktaid Glad you recognized it!

Piece of cake

An insteresting thing is that the melody does sort of follow the diatonic concepts, with T, D7 and this is actually what makes it melodic.

But that's the thing. All you need to do is play a bunch of chromatic lines in a row and then you realise that this isn't what we base our music on at all. It's not the basic building block, it's what we can use to sometimes glue the blocks better together.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax The b3rd, b5th and b7th tones CAN be found within the BBB! You must be talking about micro-tones.

 

 

Do you actually paly the blues? Then you ought to know that the blues notes are found between the 12 pitches. A blues third, isn't really major, nor minor. Same goes for the blues' versions of 5ths and 7ths.

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Why don't we move on to truly debating the best way to name the 12 BBB, okay?

 

 

Come on, that is what we have been trying to debate the whole time.