Members Knottyhed Posted February 13, 2007 Members Share Posted February 13, 2007 One of the biggest problems I have and other bands i've seen in my area with live sound is that there's no definition between instruments and all the levels are wrong so solo's etc. don't come through properly. I could be wrong, but going straight into the mixer could be a way of resolving alot of these headaches? Last couple of rehearsals we've tried plugging the guitars direct into the mixer via a couple of Line 6 POD's. It gives us much more control over the overall sound and everything seems to come through better... but the POD doesn't really do it for me tone-wise. I'm a complete noob when it comes to this sort of thing, so wondered what equipment I should be looking at if i want to take this route seriously. Could it even be worth buying a small but nice sounding tube amp and mic'ing it up? Are there better alternatives to the POD? Any suggestions/advice would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bardsley Posted February 13, 2007 Members Share Posted February 13, 2007 Going straight to a mixer may resolve those problems, but cause a couple more.If you're playing in a rock band, you need foldback of your instrument anyway, so it might as well come from your amp.However, micing all the instruments (except often the drums don't need it in smaller venues) is a good way of letting the mixer take care of the levels. That way, you adjust your amp volume to how you want to hear it, then the mixer takes care of whether or not it needs to be beefed up through the front of house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Li Shenron Posted February 13, 2007 Members Share Posted February 13, 2007 We used that approach all the time with my previous band: everyone except the drummer was mic-ed directly into the mixer. I was using an old Zoom9002 at that time, so I had a small pre-amp stage before going into the mixer, but the other guitarist and the bassist were going into the mixer without a pre-amp stage, is this possible? Or am I not remembering something quite right here? If that's possible, you need not use the POD at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted February 13, 2007 Members Share Posted February 13, 2007 Back in the "good old days" when they played a lot of acoustic jazz out in clubs the musicians never did this thing called sound-check. You just showed up, took your instrument out of its case, tuned it and counted off the first song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted February 13, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 13, 2007 That way, you adjust your amp volume to how you want to hear it, then the mixer takes care of whether or not it needs to be beefed up through the front of house. Can't say I'm bothered about generating feedback, but that's definately an option I'm thinking about; getting a 20-30watt tube amp and micing that through the PA. I assume anything louder would be utterly pointless if I want to go via PA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gennation Posted February 13, 2007 Members Share Posted February 13, 2007 The best things a live club band can do to HELP the mix is... 1. lower your stage volume! 2. DO NOT point you cabinets facing the crowd. Instead point it at yourself off to the side or right in front of you. If you do #2, it will automatically take care #1 for the most part. 3. Aim your cabinet into your ear, NOT the back of your head. Use it as a MONITOR, as a SIDE FILL. This follows #2. Here's why using these techniques help... Most bands don't have a monsterous PA to use. Most bands end up at the mercy of the soundman. Sound is directional and omni-directional. A guitar cabinet is directional, it's loudest when it hits you in the face. The High (horn) and Hi-mid cabinets are directional too but they "disperse" sound differently than a guitar cab. A sub-woofer, or low-end cabinet sub is omni-directional, it's generally the same volume in front of the cabinet as it is behind the cabinet. When someone is sitting in the front of the stage and an amp cabinet is point directly to the front of the stage, that will be the only thing the person hears...it will over power the other instruments, cabinets and frequencies. The horns will be weaker because of the way the "disperse" the sound. And remember....the sound man is usually out front of the stage too and a guitar cabinet "throws" sound very well, and very long. So, the sound man always has this battle going on where he needs to get everything louder than either the drums or the guitar (for some reason). So, let the drummer play, get your amp up off the ground, on a stand or chair or whatever, set it off to the side of the stage pointing in your ear...and "mix" it's volume with the drums. Now the sound man doesn't have to fight two battles, and since your amp is pointing at you, you are playing a a loud level for yourself, and the the crowd doesn't get blasted away either. The battle the sound man faces is getting the vocals heard without distorting them...then YOUR BAND ends up with a "{censored}ty mix". Using tricks that get your stage volume down is the KEY to a better mix...as long as you have a good sound man I've been running sound in clubs since 1982. I've ran sound for 100's of bands. The bands who keep the levels down, don't have volume pouring off the stage, get the best mix automagically, all I have to do is watch levels and MIX...that's all a sound guy should have to do...YOU, the band, can help by keeping those levels down! Many sounds guys will leave the volume slider down on the guitar channel...because it's so loud coming off the stage that it doesn't make a difference if it's turned up or not...I know many sound men have done that. Ok, that covers the CLUBS...what about big halls??? Halls will usually have big PA's. So, you can turn up loud...but now you have to fight with the size of the stage. With things spread out you might be able to hear yourself but not anyone else, this can suck for a n00b band on a big stage....they lose control REAL quick and have no idea what they are hearing. So, crank your amp for the sake of cranking your amp, don't worry whether you can hear it or not...because, large PA's have large monitor systems, and aside from the monitors on the front of the stage (mainly used for vocals and limited instrumentation) they big PA's will have SIDE FILLS. Side fills are like a whole other PA system with stacks at the front corners of the stage pointing AT THE BAND. The sound man will give you a STAGE MIX for the band. So, don't worry about hearing your amp, worry that you can hear yourself, and everything else, in the monitor mix, because your amps going to get drowned out anyways. And, the nice thing about side fills is...they are "full-range", so you get separation between the highs, mid, and lows...mind blowning sound compared to a guitar amp...kind of like when you listen to your POD in headphones and get a great sound, then you connect it to your amp and it sounds "one-sided". That's the difference. Here's a an experience I had when I was in a club band (playing guitar) and we would do opening shows for bands that would come through town... The main hall we would play was about 3000-4000 people for concerts. All I used was a 22W 1x12 Mesa amp! But they'd pump that baby through the sidefills and it was the largest sound I'd EVER heard. So, small club... point your cabinets at yourself, and mix your level to the drums. This will keep the stage volume down. Big halls... crank your amp and forget about it, just worry about getting yourself in the monitor mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted February 14, 2007 Members Share Posted February 14, 2007 It's possible to plug straight in, but it most definately sounds like a$$ Depends on what tone you want. If you are playing with a clean tone then maybe it's not such a big deal. I had to plug straight into the PA at a gig when my amp broke down and it sounded pretty good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bardsley Posted February 14, 2007 Members Share Posted February 14, 2007 Back in the "good old days" when they played a lot of acoustic jazz out in clubs the musicians never did this thing called sound-check. You just showed up, took your instrument out of its case, tuned it and counted off the first song. What's your point? If someone asks you how to drive a car, do you say that back in the old days people used to take trains? Sometimes I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jawbreakerr Posted February 14, 2007 Members Share Posted February 14, 2007 its just an anecdote. take it lightly. or course the rules of acoustic jazz doesnt apply to live LOUD electric music. but maybe itsa little side note... its about how ya play.. not ya gear .. but if you already sound great, then it is your gear, hah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 The bands here invariably use way too much bass. Frankly I prefer the standard Network TV mix. Balanced, behaved and perfect for entertainment. What did I miss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 What's your point? If someone asks you how to drive a car, do you say that back in the old days people used to take trains? Sometimes I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. My point is that it can still often be done in this way. The benefit? You are in complete control over your sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bardsley Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 I wish that were true. I love playing acoustic(y) gigs, but when it gets to Rock, you'll never have that luxury. I've done a lot of live sound for bands. The main problem is that the crowd noise is so loud that everyone needs foldback anyway, except the drummer if he's lucky. Half the time the guitarist ends up so far from his amp that to turn that up loud enough to hear drowns out the horn section, or spills into the piano mic (yay! micing pianos in rock bands!) so much that it's unworkable. In the old days a lot of audiences would shut the hell up during performances too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted February 15, 2007 Members Share Posted February 15, 2007 Well, first of all, musically there's no problem with playing acoustic rock and roll, but you knew that. Crowds are noisy in our culture, simply because they don't have any, and that is a problem that's been growing over the years but... some of that noise comes from the fact that the bands have gotten louder too. I've played pubs where they were expecting a relatively loud blues band and got me, a bass fiddle and soft brushes for drums. I used minimal amplification, just my Maxi Mouse for both vocals and my balalajka, the bass had a little extra from a GK, that was all. I ask the guy who runs the bar to turn the radio off and there's this quiet in the room when everyone is waiting for the explosion from the stage... and wew start playing... but we're softer than the radio and it wasn't loud to start with... after the initial shock people settle down and talk in a lower voice when they're not listening to us. I did this a several places during a time when I had lots of gigs booked but didn't give a {censored} about it because I was fed up with the whole thing. So I didn't care what any bar owner might say about the lack of volume... the thing is, nobody ever complained and hadn't I been so fed up with it I was actually on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bardsley Posted February 16, 2007 Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 You know, I went to a gig the other night which showed me up. They were all plugged in, playing some sort of dub with extras, when a guest came up and played the saw. It was miced, but very quiet, and everyone just shut up so we all heard it. It helps that the band has a very devoted following now, so they go along with them more, but it was great to hear such a noisy venue get so soft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wrathfuldeity Posted February 16, 2007 Members Share Posted February 16, 2007 Back in the day I ran sound for a band, mostly bars and clubs...and what Gennation says. IMHO a good sound man is able to put the vocals and instrumental solos out in front of a good balanced mix for the crowd. But at times needs some communication needed about the live monitor mix/fill for on stage for the musicans....and I concur that it is a challenge to get some bands to have a lower stage volume so that you have some headroom to mix the sound for the club instead of just having "the blast" from the stage and the musicians argue that they can't hear themselves (btw the parameters and this discussion and decisions should be done at the sound check...so the room/club is "tuned" then the soundman can make the finer adjustments when the crowd fills in). Another factor as noted is the ebb and flow of the crowd and of your ambience that the band is trying to create...and the soundman is in a sense the middle man that has significant responsiblity in creating this in tandem with the band and responding to the fluctuation in the crowd. I've seen alot of clueless or lazy soundmen that just set the board and walk away and it just irks me that they don't work the board for the best mix considering the song, solo, vocals, room and the ebb/flow of the crowd. BTW the crowd and the "evening flow/rythm" does have an influence on the sound. There have been many times that as a club patron that I've just wanted to yell at the soundman...WTF. And a side note: It is unfortunate that some bands forget or don't consider the soundman as a part of the band and that the soundman has to have some backbone and be able to direct the band so they can sound good....a good band can really sound {censored}ty with a bad soundman. :blah: So anyway, I say mic everything you can and if you have the luxury of having a board for the stage/band if its a big place and one out front front for the crowd then more people will be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ed the art guy Posted February 22, 2007 Members Share Posted February 22, 2007 If your happier with the POD and are not totally happy with the sound, then try other effect boxes. Digitech offers a plethora of models, personally I have a Vox tonelab. In short, grab your favorite headphones and your stage guitar and head to your music store and try out some effect boxes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rm100tubehead Posted February 22, 2007 Members Share Posted February 22, 2007 The best things a live club band can do to HELP the mix is... 1. lower your stage volume! 2. DO NOT point you cabinets facing the crowd. Instead point it at yourself off to the side or right in front of you. If you do #2, it will automatically take care #1 for the most part. 3. Aim your cabinet into your ear, NOT the back of your head. Use it as a MONITOR, as a SIDE FILL. This follows #2. Here's why using these techniques help... Most bands don't have a monsterous PA to use. Most bands end up at the mercy of the soundman. Sound is directional and omni-directional. A guitar cabinet is directional, it's loudest when it hits you in the face. The High (horn) and Hi-mid cabinets are directional too but they "disperse" sound differently than a guitar cab. A sub-woofer, or low-end cabinet sub is omni-directional, it's generally the same volume in front of the cabinet as it is behind the cabinet. When someone is sitting in the front of the stage and an amp cabinet is point directly to the front of the stage, that will be the only thing the person hears...it will over power the other instruments, cabinets and frequencies. The horns will be weaker because of the way the "disperse" the sound. And remember....the sound man is usually out front of the stage too and a guitar cabinet "throws" sound very well, and very long. So, the sound man always has this battle going on where he needs to get everything louder than either the drums or the guitar (for some reason). So, let the drummer play, get your amp up off the ground, on a stand or chair or whatever, set it off to the side of the stage pointing in your ear...and "mix" it's volume with the drums. Now the sound man doesn't have to fight two battles, and since your amp is pointing at you, you are playing a a loud level for yourself, and the the crowd doesn't get blasted away either. The battle the sound man faces is getting the vocals heard without distorting them...then YOUR BAND ends up with a "{censored}ty mix". Using tricks that get your stage volume down is the KEY to a better mix...as long as you have a good sound man I've been running sound in clubs since 1982. I've ran sound for 100's of bands. The bands who keep the levels down, don't have volume pouring off the stage, get the best mix automagically, all I have to do is watch levels and MIX...that's all a sound guy should have to do...YOU, the band, can help by keeping those levels down! Many sounds guys will leave the volume slider down on the guitar channel...because it's so loud coming off the stage that it doesn't make a difference if it's turned up or not...I know many sound men have done that. Ok, that covers the CLUBS...what about big halls??? Halls will usually have big PA's. So, you can turn up loud...but now you have to fight with the size of the stage. With things spread out you might be able to hear yourself but not anyone else, this can suck for a n00b band on a big stage....they lose control REAL quick and have no idea what they are hearing. So, crank your amp for the sake of cranking your amp, don't worry whether you can hear it or not...because, large PA's have large monitor systems, and aside from the monitors on the front of the stage (mainly used for vocals and limited instrumentation) they big PA's will have SIDE FILLS. Side fills are like a whole other PA system with stacks at the front corners of the stage pointing AT THE BAND. The sound man will give you a STAGE MIX for the band. So, don't worry about hearing your amp, worry that you can hear yourself, and everything else, in the monitor mix, because your amps going to get drowned out anyways. And, the nice thing about side fills is...they are "full-range", so you get separation between the highs, mid, and lows...mind blowning sound compared to a guitar amp...kind of like when you listen to your POD in headphones and get a great sound, then you connect it to your amp and it sounds "one-sided". That's the difference. Here's a an experience I had when I was in a club band (playing guitar) and we would do opening shows for bands that would come through town... The main hall we would play was about 3000-4000 people for concerts. All I used was a 22W 1x12 Mesa amp! But they'd pump that baby through the sidefills and it was the largest sound I'd EVER heard. So, small club... point your cabinets at yourself, and mix your level to the drums. This will keep the stage volume down. Big halls... crank your amp and forget about it, just worry about getting yourself in the monitor mix. Damn thats a long quote. +1 on point number 2. DO NOT point you cabinets facing the crowd. Instead point it at yourself off to the side or right in front of you. I like a combo amp pointing directly at one side of my head. You'll be too loud for yourself before you get too loud for anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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