To those who don't learn songs by ear.

[gennation]

Listening is a resource and it is one of a ton of resources that needs to harnessed. Many of the greats play by instinct more than anything...the instinct is what becomes their style.

Visualization is a huge part of being able to cop a sound. Sometimes guys can play with the correct direction and play all the wrong notes and it can blow right by you. Think of how many tunes have mistakes in them, sometimes what you hear isn't the cool part it's the visualization of getting from one spot to another spot that drives everything...regardless of what it sounded like, it's all what it felt like...and whether you can project that feeling outward. Strange but true, just think of all the tunes that have mistakes in them...listening came in second place there.

Sometimes you can get lost in a song on stage where the sound is a blur and it's difficult to even follow the changes audibly let alone rely on your ear to get through it...the only thing you have left is your instincts. That's the only thing that keeps YOU in the tune and landing on two feet.

Some of the greatest players didn't really have great ears, but had great instincts. Instinct is the part that allows you to write a full song in one pass, it allows you to come up with things you would've never heard in a million years or thought of if you spent time listening and thinking.

Again, listening is a resource you need to control but there are many other things that go deeper.

Style is instinct and visualization.

[Steadfastly]

Do it. Please. Trust me on this. Just do it. I guarantee you will become a better musician, if not, I'll give you your money back. Doing this one single thing will improve you more than any other lesson out there. Nowadays, with software like "Transcribe!" you can slow things down to crawl speed and listening intently to a small section of music repeatedly will improve your concentration skills, and pitch recognition/sensitivity immensely. Those two skills will improve every other area of your playing. Guaranteed. If however,you're not interested in becoming a better musician, then fine, carry on!. *rant driven by listening to brothers friends 17 year old son play excrutiatingly inaccurate versions of classic rock songs learned from internet TAB, no ears were required in the process, on questioning some of his playing by saying "Uh, cool, but I think that note should be C# and not C..was told, "but that's what the TAB says, you must be wrong" *

I agree 100% with you about TAB. It's too bad it was invented because it leaves so much out of playing music. Reading music, even a little bit is so much better.

However, when it comes to learning by ear, don't you feel that you have to know a little bit before you can really learn that way?

[j1mb0b]

I have to agree about your ear training, it's the one thing that makes me "seem" like an amazing guitar player. I have a decent understanding of music and very early on, guitar lessons. All I do now is watch youtube to learn new things, and use my ear for learning songs. I can even figure out chords by myself because of my ear.

Ear training to me is the real hint that can get you far quick in music. If I can hear it, I can most likely play it.

[jeremy_green]

However, when it comes to learning by ear, don't you feel that you have to know a little bit before you can really learn that way?

 

 

No

 

It's all about progressive steps. THIS IS WHERE MOST BEGINNERS GO WRONG. If you start with something too hard you will get flustered and think "I am not a natural like these other guys" which is total crap. Or my favorite "Sometimes these advanced players don't understand what it's like to be Joe-Schmoe" again more crap. We do get it, we dont forget AND we know what it took to get there.

 

Seriously start small - Obvious powerchord lines (Black Sabbath) or by picking out single note basslines. Get the progression as a single series of notes. Then flesh out those notes to chords, first just the 5th (powerchord) then try full barre forms. Try Major first, if it sounds wrong try minor, if that sounds wrong try dominant. Do this for each note in the sequence.

 

Get it as best you can THEN find the TAB and check your work.

Do another song. On and On. Before too long you will be doing this.

 

It's all about starting at the right point. Easy Obvious powerchord stuff. Start there.

 

Seriously get a copy of Black Sabbath "Paranoid" album. Start pulling these riffs - even if you don't like them use it as a starter exercise. These are the kinds of riffs to start with. There are others but it's late and that is the best example I can think of. You need no knowledge just a guitar and ears.

 

Learning to do this is possible and the single most powerful learning device you will ever need IMO.

[Godsky]

Agree 100%
But i still suck if they ae not in standard tuning

[mosiddiqi]

I agree 100% with you about TAB. It's too bad it was invented because it leaves so much out of playing music. Reading music, even a little bit is so much better. However, when it comes to learning by ear, don't you feel that you have to know a little bit before you can really learn that way?

 

No, well, in my case I had a chord book and then learned how to play "Love me Do" by the Beatles by ear. When I got into heavier music, I learned a load of Sabbath (as Jeremy suggested) and AC/DC riffs and then started learning solos..I remember that I could play the solo from Zep's "Celebration Day" LONG before I could play the main riff to that song..which is a pretty tricky riff for a beginner to nail..the solo however, is relatively easy and gave me a lot of confidence, "I can play a Jimmy Page solo note for note!" ..I just couldn't play the actual song.

 

It's all small steps..once I learned a couple of AC/DC songs (which took ages) and got familiar with the kind of chord voicings they use..the rest got easier.

 

Example: The main riff to "Hell ain't a bad place to be"..which uses these type of chords:

 

 

Those first two voicings...they weren't in my chord book..hell, they weren't in ANY chord book back then. It took me an embarrasingly long time to figure out. Once I did though, I started "hearing" those chords in my head clearly..and suddenly, the intro riff to Zep's "Custard Pie" became less of a mystery!...and so it goes...

[Steadfastly]

No It's all about progressive steps. THIS IS WHERE MOST BEGINNERS GO WRONG. If you start with something too hard you will get flustered and think "I am not a natural like these other guys" which is total crap. Or my favorite "Sometimes these advanced players don't understand what it's like to be Joe-Schmoe" again more crap. We do get it, we dont forget AND we know what it took to get there. Seriously start small - Obvious powerchord lines (Black Sabbath) or by picking out single note basslines. Get the progression as a single series of notes. Then flesh out those notes to chords, first just the 5th (powerchord) then try full barre forms. Try Major first, if it sounds wrong try minor, if that sounds wrong try dominant. Do this for each note in the sequence. Get it as best you can THEN find the TAB and check your work. Do another song. On and On. Before too long you will be doing this. It's all about starting at the right point. Easy Obvious powerchord stuff. Start there. Seriously get a copy of Black Sabbath "Paranoid" album. Start pulling these riffs - even if you don't like them use it as a starter exercise. These are the kinds of riffs to start with. There are others but it's late and that is the best example I can think of. You need no knowledge just a guitar and ears. Learning to do this is possible and the single most powerful learning device you will ever need IMO.

 

 

I don't think I could do it without knowing a little bit about the guitar first. Obviously some can. Also, I'll never agree with TAB. I think it's a curse to guitar players. Learning to read music is not difficult. TAB shows you which finger, which string and which fret and that's it. No timing, no rests, no sharps, no flats, etc.

 

Also, how are you going to do chords if you don't know what they are. You would at least need a beginners book and a chord chart to start with.

[jeremy_green]

Flip my friend I believe you are selling yourself short. I have taught TONS of people how to do this and you CAN.

 

Seriously, try what i said get a copy of any early Sabbath even if that is not your bag - treat it as an exercise (paranoid is great - Ironman has it all)

 

-Pick out the riffs as single note lines going up one string (usually the E string).

-Change them all to Power chords

-Crank the gain and cut off your fingertips and you are Tony Iommi! OK maybe this is a joke : )

 

The same can be done with early Zeppelin, some Deep Purple, Judas Priest pretty much any 70's hard rock. Find a band you can tolerate and start picking away. But make sure it has a strong not too fast moving obvious riff. Green Day, Any punk - although this can get fast.

 

As you gain confidence start to grab the little single note riffs, more extended chords, bits of solos etc. Before long you will start to hear things and it will get easier.

 

Get a copy of Transcribe - seriously do this. This will make all this very easy.

 

Start small

[JonR]

Also, how are you going to do chords if you don't know what they are. You would at least need a beginners book and a chord chart to start with.

Well, that's debatable. It's really up to you. Some people do like a bit of intellectual understanding and theory to begin with, a conceptual base to start from - others like to just dive straight in and make noises that sound good (or b-a-a-d !) without caring what they're called.
As Jeremy says, there's a hell of a lot you can do with just single string riffs and one-shape power chords - especially if that's the kind of music you like.

What's important - even if you do want to begin with some theoretical knowledge (and that's what chord names are ) - is that you let your ear rule.
It's easy to fall into the trap (if you're a thinking kind of guy!) of thinking that music starts with the written rules and the notation, which you then have to convert into sound (using whatever technical skills you can develop). Wrong - it's the other way round. Music starts and ends as sound. The theory (the names for all the sounds) are only a way of letting us talk - or write - about them; and somewhat imperfectly at that.
It's a common problem resulting from the way music is (or has been) normally taught in schools. We're encouraged (culturally) to believe that Great Music is something written by a composer (a god-like "Genius") whose Scripture we must obey to the letter, otherwise it is "imperfect". This is an attitude peculiar to European high culture of the last few centuries (in fact mainly the 19th century). Elsewhere in the world (and in Europe in other eras) music was learned by ear, and understood by ear. There were no "composers" - there were only "musicians". And that tradition is - or should be - alive and well in modern vernacular ("folk") musics such as blues and rock.

Which rant is not to say notation should be rejected! It's a very useful way of sketching out certain fundamentals - but that's all it is. You don't learn to swim by reading a book about swimming. You get in the water... (And luckily you can't drown in music...)

[meganutt7]

I totally agree. If you're not fazed by the concept of notation (some are!), it's much better than tab, for the reasons you give. If you can read notation, you can read all kinds of music - not only stuff written for guitar. I found it invaluable when I was learning (teaching myself). Well, that's debatable. It's really up to you. Some people do like a bit of intellectual understanding and theory to begin with, a conceptual base to start from - others like to just dive straight in and make noises that sound good (or b-a-a-d !) without caring what they're called. As Jeremy says, there's a hell of a lot you can do with just single string riffs and one-shape power chords - especially if that's the kind of music you like. What's important - even if you do want to begin with some theoretical knowledge (and that's what chord names are ) - is that you let your ear rule. It's easy to fall into the trap (if you're a thinking kind of guy!) of thinking that music starts with the written rules and the notation, which you then have to convert into sound (using whatever technical skills you can develop). Wrong - it's the other way round. Music starts and ends as sound. The theory (the names for all the sounds) are only a way of letting us talk - or write - about them; and somewhat imperfectly at that. It's a common problem resulting from the way music is (or has been) normally taught in schools. We're encouraged (culturally) to believe that Great Music is something written by a composer (a god-like "Genius") whose Scripture we must obey to the letter, otherwise it is "imperfect". This is an attitude peculiar to European high culture of the last few centuries (in fact mainly the 19th century). Elsewhere in the world (and in Europe in other eras) music was learned by ear, and understood by ear. There were no "composers" - there were only "musicians". And that tradition is - or should be - alive and well in modern vernacular ("folk") musics such as blues and rock. Which rant is not to say notation should be rejected! It's a very useful way of sketching out certain fundamentals - but that's all it is. You don't learn to swim by reading a book about swimming. You get in the water... (And luckily you can't drown in music... )

What Jon is saying is totally on base!!!

Theory comes AFTER the fact... Once you hear something and accept it as sonically valid, people may theorize why it worked. Like Charlie Parker's music in the "Pre-Bop" era. Who is to say that the way the theory guys are explaining/rationalizing it is DEFINITELY the way that Bird thought about it as he played. Or if he thought at all....

I know, from personal experience, that when I write things, or play things, I am ofte n thinking a certain way, or feeling/hearing a certain way... When people ask me what I was doing on a theoretical level, they are sometimes right in line with how I was thinking, other times on the opposite side of the fence. It is such an infinite abyss.

[jonPhillips]

For everyone who is new to transcribing, there's been plenty of excellent advice in this thread. I've just been listening to Planet Caravan by Sabbath and if you're new to the idea of transcribing an actual solo, I reckon that's a pretty good place to start. Not too fast, but melodic with some good licks to cop.

 

All the usual suspects (I love you fellas ) have suggested starting simple and working up to the more complex stuff, which you can't argue with.

 

Trust Mo's advice about ear training, he's on the money. In the words of a suspect sports shoe manufacturer, Just Do It

[quarky]

I am going to give this a go (my ear is truely crap so it will be a lot of work).

So Iron Man and Paranoid are good tracks to start with? Any other suggestions from bands/artists like Smashing Pumpkins, Kiss, Def Leppard, Jimi Hendrix, Pearl Jam, Guns n Roses, etc?

The other difficulty for me is that if I only have an hour in an evening to get some guitar work in, it is hard to make myself NOT play the guitar.. Still, got to be worth working it into my routine.

[JonR]

The other difficulty for me is that if I only have an hour in an evening to get some guitar work in, it is hard to make myself NOT play the guitar.. Still, got to be worth working it into my routine.

Well, you will be playing guitar, as you try to match notes to what you hear and (eventually) play along.

[jeremy_green]

I basically cut my lifting teeth on the entire Sabbath catalogue. They are awesome for there clarity. Learn each line as just single notes going up one string. Then change each note to power chords. Get the paranoid album and go through it.

 

Lots of early heavy rock is good for this too Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Ozzy, Thin Lizzie, Whitesnake, Y&T, Scorpions, Motorhead, Metallica - the who's who of 80's metal! Zeppelin has some great single note stufff like Heartbreaker, or black dog many many.

 

The key is learning to be able to tell what song is withing your reach. Once you know "Hey I bet I can figure that out" you are on your way. This level will go higher then more you do it.

[quarky]

Thanks for the tips guys.

Learn each line as just single notes going up one string. Then change each note to power chords. Get the paranoid album and go through it.

If I hear a note (lets say it is an A), and it is a different octave from the A on the string I chose, I may struggle to recognize it as an A.

Still, I will give it a go!

[big_aug]

I didn't read this whole thread. I've only been playing a year and a half.

 

That being said, I think it is a complete waste of your practice time if you spend hours trying to transcribe a song when you are learning to play guitar. Well, waste might be the wrong word. Inefficient use would be better. All that time you spend attempting to transcribe a song would yield much greater results if you used it to just practice playing.

 

This is especially true if you don't have hours and hours everyday to dedicate to it. Should you eventually become really good at learning things by ear? Yea, probably. But you can always start doing that after you become a little more technically proficient. It really does no good to slow a song way down, transcribe it, and then not be able to play it at all. You could say, well you just play it really slow. Well, you could just slow down a guitar pro or whatever file WAY down and you'd easily be able to tell if its actually right compared to the actual song. So you get some "ear training" that way too.

[jeremy_green]

I think it is a complete waste of your practice time if you spend hours trying to transcribe a song when you are learning to play guitar. Well, waste might be the wrong word. Inefficient use would be better. All that time you spend attempting to transcribe a song would yield much greater results if you used it to just practice playing.

 

 

I couldnt possibly disagree more.

 

Learning to hear things from the onset is a critical component to a persons development. Over the years I have played with many players of all levels and I can ALWAYS tell when a players ears are less developed.

 

Actually I would go as far as to say the players with better ears are better players pretty much period. Ear training is a CORE skill for any musician.

 

Anyone can learn songs from a tab - so if your goal is to just learn that song - then sure, fill your boots. But if your goal is to become a better musician then this kind of thing is NEVER an inefficient use of time.

[jeremy_green]

Thanks for the tips guys. If I hear a note (lets say it is an A), and it is a different octave from the A on the string I chose, I may struggle to recognize it as an A. Still, I will give it a go!

Start slow, try Iron Man. Find all the notes on the low E string for the main riff. (Get a copy of "Transcribe" if you can to help you.) Listen to the line, hum along with it to find the first note. Then stop the music and try to find the line from that first note. Turn the music back on and listen to it again. Keep finding notes until you got it. Then turn them into power chords and rock out!

This doesn't happen immediately, do your best, stay patient and it will come. With each new song you WILL get faster at it.

It is THE best skill I have ever acquired as I now have basically complete freedom from ever spending money on or wasting time searching for an accurate transcription. I want to learn a new song I just - drop the needle (figuratively speaking!)

You must walk before you run so always remember that. Nothing worth doing comes easily.

[GreenAsJade]

Well, you could just slow down a guitar pro or whatever file WAY down and you'd easily be able to tell if its actually right compared to the actual song.

 

 

I wonder if you've tried that?

 

It's not as easy as you think. If it _was_ this easy, the guitar pro tabs out there would be better quality. As it is, loads of them are absolute junk.

 

Of course, as with all things, what advice is best for you depends on your goals.

 

If you want to be a classical guitarist, you should be practicing techqnique and reading music score.

 

But if you want to be a rock guitarist, or do any sort of improvisation, you need the skills that transcription brings.

 

One thing I've found astonishing is how "all of a sudden" (at long last) two things are happening for me:

 

- I can hear something in a solo, and already know how to play it. Just

listening on the radio or whatever, I head licks etc and have a good

idea where I'd put my fingers to make that sound

 

- I'm starting to hear melodies/licks in my head, in the way the Mo has

described elsewhere, and know where to put my fingers to make them

happen.

 

Yay. This is thanks to transcription effort.

 

GaJ

[bigboy78]

I didn't read this whole thread. I've only been playing a year and a half. That being said, I think it is a complete waste of your practice time if you spend hours trying to transcribe a song when you are learning to play guitar. Well, waste might be the wrong word. Inefficient use would be better. All that time you spend attempting to transcribe a song would yield much greater results if you used it to just practice playing. This is especially true if you don't have hours and hours everyday to dedicate to it. Should you eventually become really good at learning things by ear? Yea, probably. But you can always start doing that after you become a little more technically proficient. It really does no good to slow a song way down, transcribe it, and then not be able to play it at all. You could say, well you just play it really slow. Well, you could just slow down a guitar pro or whatever file WAY down and you'd easily be able to tell if its actually right compared to the actual song. So you get some "ear training" that way too.

One of the major benefits of learning songs without the aid of notation, is that you get to nail a few essential things in one process. You learn to listen, you learn to hear relative pitches, but most of all through the constant repetition required to transcirbe even a simple song, you learn to play the guitar and add to your song list (I can't spell repotiore ). I don't know about everyone else but I only remeber a song that I have lifted from a recording. If I learn it of a sheet, it doesn't stick as well.

I'm not a big fan of the slow-downers. I can't handle the sound of slowed down drums, and the reverb effects etc. I just listen, try to find the first couple of notes, listen to the lick again, try to find the notes again, but I'm not a fan of 80's metal, so the licks I'm lifting are rarely too fast to pick up.

[bigboy78]

The key is learning to be able to tell what song is withing your reach. Once you know "Hey I bet I can figure that out" you are on your way. This level will go higher then more you do it.

That is so the key. It comes down not so much thinking

"I really love that song I might try and lift it"

as much as

"I reckon I know what is being played there" and then testing out your thoughts.

First riff I learned was the intro to Summer Lovin' from Grease.

A friend had shown me Wild Thing, and Summer Lovin' soudned kind of similar.

[3shiftgtr]

I didn't read this whole thread. I've only been playing a year and a half. That being said, I think it is a complete waste of your practice time if you spend hours trying to transcribe a song when you are learning to play guitar. Well, waste might be the wrong word. Inefficient use would be better. All that time you spend attempting to transcribe a song would yield much greater results if you used it to just practice playing. This is especially true if you don't have hours and hours everyday to dedicate to it. Should you eventually become really good at learning things by ear? Yea, probably. But you can always start doing that after you become a little more technically proficient. It really does no good to slow a song way down, transcribe it, and then not be able to play it at all. You could say, well you just play it really slow. Well, you could just slow down a guitar pro or whatever file WAY down and you'd easily be able to tell if its actually right compared to the actual song. So you get some "ear training" that way too.

 

 

I see your point, but as you grow as a player, I can almost guarantee that experience will show you that the difference between decent, capable players and inspiring, amazing ones, is their ear.

 

And the best way to strengthen both your ear and your chops, is transcribing and learning to play what you transcribed.

 

If playing Iron Man or Paranoid at tempo is troublesome for you, then yeah...spend a little more time getting the physical side together...your point is taken....but ignoring the strengthening of your ear will keep you moving slow.

 

Remember, at it's core, music is a hearing art. And transcribing speaks directly to that.

[big_aug]

I see your point, but as you grow as a player, I can almost guarantee that experience will show you that the difference between decent, capable players and inspiring, amazing ones, is their ear. And the best way to strengthen both your ear and your chops, is transcribing and learning to play what you transcribed. If playing Iron Man or Paranoid at tempo is troublesome for you, then yeah...spend a little more time getting the physical side together...your point is taken....but ignoring the strengthening of your ear will keep you moving slow. Remember, at it's core, music is a hearing art. And transcribing speaks directly to that.

 

 

Yea, that's what I'm saying. I think it would be bad advice to tell someone starting out learning guitar to start trying to transcribe. Yes, it is a great skill. Yes, it will make you better able to learn music and write your own music. However, it is going to be a difficult, painstaking process to transcribe songs (on top of the difficult, painstaking process that learning guitar can be in the early goings). I think it could lead to a lot of frustration and people quitting.

 

Once you've been playing a while, then its likely just the next logical step in your progression as a player. I've been wanting to start transcribing into standard notation and learning songs that way (develop my ear and my reading skills at the same time). I just don't feel like I have the time to dedicate to it. I'd rather just play. I do a lot of practice improvising and I think that helps a lot too.

[GreenAsJade]

This is _definitely true_. I back you up 100% on that one big_aug.

 

It is certainly the case (IMHO) that beginners need to spend some time just practicing playing chords and notes before thinking of "transcribing".

 

Further, my (limited) experience of "showing beginners how" is that the beginners don't even really _want_ to learn stuff by ear ("transcribe").

 

It's almost a sign of when someone has progressed past "beginner" - that moment when they suddenly see that this "learn by ear" is a good idea.

 

It's definitely the case that plenty of good advice about learning is only applicable to a certain stage of learning, and this is no exception.

 

I'd be surprised if too many people were representing transcription as a "something to start with as a beginner". Rather, it's highly advised as a way to go about advancing.

 

When you said

 

I think it is a complete waste of your practice time if you spend hours trying to transcribe a song when you are learning to play guitar.

 

You obviously meant "it's a waste trying to spend hours to transcribe when you are _beginning_ learning to play guitar".

 

You never stop learning to play the guitar And you soon reach the point where transcribing is not a waste of time at all...

 

 

GaJ

[mcmurray]

That being said, I think it is a complete waste of your practice time if you spend hours trying to transcribe a song when you are learning to play guitar. Well, waste might be the wrong word. Inefficient use would be better. All that time you spend attempting to transcribe a song would yield much greater results if you used it to just practice playing.

 

 

I couldn't disagree more either. By transcribing then playing, you're actively creating a link between you ear and the fretboard. This is an extremely important skill to have. Just playing can not achieve this.