Pentatonics question

[Eddie]

"Confused? You won't be after tonight's episode of Soap"

 

[meganutt7]

A ton of great advice coming in......thanks! I asked an "angled" question a little earlier: "So, to hopefully and correctly paraphrase............ In a major blues, you're pretty well tied to the minor pentatonic over everything, except for "special effect" notes ( edit: from the blues scale or major pentatonic ). Outside of blues, you can use each chord's individual pentatonic scale, be it major or minor." .....after reading Benzem's "ding ding :idea:" post, I expected to be told (again) that using individual pentatonic scales is the same as using the key's major scale (as pointed out by Benzem), because every individual pentatonic scale in the key comes from that scale, ie they all use the same notes. I'm just making sure I'm on the right track at this point. But...... Outside of the blues style, if you used each non-major chord's individual natural minor scale (that from its 'home key eg Dm using the F major scale)..............then you would be bringing in other notes, alien to the key's major scale.......but not everything would 'work', ie sound okay to most people. And if you used the major key's scale notes to play minor scales over minor chords, that would be modal. Hoping this makes sense. I have an "almost there" feeling. I'm not sure, though, why one would use natural minor scales from another key......... Is all this about right?

 

 

Paul,

 

I don't think that you need to be well tied to everything on a major blues (or any other musical form, for that matter). The beautiful thing about music is that you have options. Infinite options, even with just 12 chromatic notes.... The way you can look at a blues can be vastly different, if you're Robert Johnson, Eric Clapton, Ry Cooder, Scott Henderson, John Scofield, Allan Holdsworth, etc. (and these are only GUITARISTS... listen to a piano player or sax player ripping on a blues... their ideas are often VASTLY different...0

 

I'ts all a matter of (as Jeremy said) knowing what you want to HEAR, or HOW to hear what you want to PLAY....

 

I think it's important to experiment with different sounds over these progressions (blues, for instance). Try playing JUST Gm penantonic over the G major blues. Then try to play only G maj. pentatonic over the whole thing (but TRY TO AVOID THE NOTES THAT MAY SOUND BAD OVER THE IV chord, namely the B natural.. Just because you can't play one note, doesn't mean you can't use all the rest....) Then try to use different scales for each chord... G Mixo, C Mixo, etc. Then maybe G half whole diminished or wholetone... Lydian b7... use weird triads (starting with an A major triad give s a nice 7#11 sound, for instance...)

[polishpaul]

Thanks, prof!

I finally understand this kind of advice, and there's a lot in this thread to keep me busy and out of mischief . What you wrote makes a lot of sense.

I'm at the stage of playing where I can be on a chord, and can come off the chord and finger notes........like little runs.......then get back on the chord.........little run....back on a different chord - you know, like playing!

I know the names of the notes, and my thinking is fast enough to choose between, say a B or a Bb, on-the-fly, and see how it sounds.

In short, I'm ready at last to take up your advice!

Thanks a lot, to everybody giving up time to help.

[JonR]

Hoping this makes sense. I have an "almost there" feeling. I'm not sure, though, why one would use natural minor scales from another key.........

You wouldn't. As you said above, "not everything would work".

IOW, you seem to be overthinking this a little. In a non-blues based sequence (say in one major key), you just have one scale: the major scale of the key. That scale works over every chord in the key, because that's where the chords came from in the first place.

If you use the pentatonic of each chord (major on major, minor on minor), you get useful subsets of the 7 notes of the key scale, which work nicely on each chord. They don't imply different scales. (Eg, just because you use A minor pent over Am in a G major tune, it doesn't imply that you could extend the scale into A natural minor (aeolian); you would get a wrong note if you did that.)

If you expand each pentatonic by adding the extra two notes from the key scale, then you will get individual modal sounds on each chord - but these are irrelevant.
Eg, if you take that Am pent (A C D E G) and add the two other notes from G major (B, F#) you technically get "A dorian mode". But you don't need to know that - it doesn't help you in any way. Those are the right notes because the key is G major; not because "A dorian mode is the right mode on an Am chord in key of G". (See what I mean - that last phrase is way too complicated.)

IOW, in a major key tune, the material is the major scale. The melody and all the chords are derived from that scale (bearing in mind the "real world" paragraph below...). And the keynote governs all the chords. In key of G, an Am chord is "ii chord in G major" - not the "i chord in A dorian". The Am chord is subservient to the key; it's highly unlikely to last long enough to acquire a sense of its own tonal centre. (If it does, then the song has essentially changed key. That could happen.)

In a major key (or a minor key) there is generally no need to think modes at all. They are more trouble than they're worth.

In the real world, however, things get complicated because major and minor key progressions do often contain chromatic notes or chords (from outside the key). But this is still nothing to do with modes. Modes don't help explain it, nor do they help you play it.

Occasionally, OTOH, we have a piece of music that is better explained overall as a modal piece, and not a key-based piece. A tune might be "in A dorian" - meaning it's not in either G major or A minor (strictly speaking). So that's where modal terms really do come in handy. But to begin with, it's best to keep the terms "key" and "mode" quite separate. They are similar in many ways, but one does not contain the other.

[Eddie]

Just for reference since the thread is about pentatonic scales, consider also Japanese, Chinese, and Egyptian scales.

One thing I liked to do was to just play around with the scales and familiarize myself with the sound of each scale.

Here's an example. Enjoy:

[video=youtube;vv7CO-nVFj8]

[polishpaul]

Thanks very much JonR! Just what I needed to make sure I'm thinking right before moving forward to do the "listen and see how it sounds" stuff recommended in this thread.

 

I'll just quote a paragraph of your most recent post"

 

"In the real world, however, things get complicated because major and minor key progressions do often contain chromatic notes or chords (from outside the key). But this is still nothing to do with modes. Modes don't help explain it, nor do they help you play it."

 

I think I'm happy in this area.....that would be passing notes not related to the chord, ornaments, brief modulations and stuff like that.

 

 

Excellent thread.....look at the number of views! It goes to show the level of interest in this subject.

 

Now......

 

I earlier asked about minor blues progressions, and in particular where you get "clash" notes from, if you mainly use the minor pentatonic and harmonic minors scales over the chords.......I know we can listen and find out, but I am interested in the theory on this.

 

I suggested a new thread for it. This one has been very good regarding major blues.......verging on wonderfully unbelievably useful..............a minor blues thread would be a great complement.

 

Eddie....

 

I'll be doing that....goood suggestion!

[JonR]

Now...... I earlier asked about minor blues progressions, and in particular where you get "clash" notes from, if you mainly use the minor pentatonic and harmonic minors scales over the chords.......I know we can listen and find out, but I am interested in the theory on this. I suggested a new thread for it. This one has been very good regarding major blues.......verging on wonderfully unbelievably useful..............a minor blues thread would be a great complement.

I could answer here, but I'll wait for the "minor blues" thread...

[polishpaul]

Done!

 

I am a much happier individual, thanks to this thread.

 

Re modes?

 

Yeah, who needs 'em?

[Alexbiscuit]

modes are amazing and i love love them

[GreenAsJade]

 

 

 

That was wonderful!

 

It'd be fascinating to write down the "formula" for each of those scales (1 b2 etc), and figure out

the harmonisation.

 

If only I had time for that! So much interesting musical space out there to explore, so little time to explore it!

 

GaJ

[Eddie]

 

That was wonderful! It'd be fascinating to write down the "formula" for each of those scales (1 b2 etc), and figure out the harmonisation. If only I had time for that! So much interesting musical space out there to explore, so little time to explore it! GaJ

 

 

Glad you liked it.

The Guitar Grimoire Scales and Modes has 2 of the scales. I'm typing just the main scale, but not its modes.

Kumoi:

1, 2, b3, 5, 6

Works well with min, min6, and sus2 chords.

 

Hirojoshi:

1, 2, b3, 5, b6

Works well with min and minb6 chords. May be used instead of Harmonic Minor and Hungarian Minor.

[Jed]

I just stumbled across the knowledge that the five pentatonic shapes can be played in three different places over the major scale. For example, in the key of G, The G Pentatonic shape can be played over the 12th fret (this has always seemed normal/common to me), as well as the 5th fret, or the 7th fret. Do people do this? What are they called?

 

 

Scolfax,

 

Attached is an illustration that shows how the same pentatonic forms are available in different locations, covering the I, IV & V major pentatonics, within one major key.

 

The attachements shows the F major scale as it projects onto the fretboard. The numbers represent scale degrees relative to F major. But remember these patterns can be shifted right or left to get to the major scale pattern for any major key.

[ATTACH]330284[/ATTACH]

 

 

If you look at each major scale fingering pattern -

 

For the F major pentatonic (F, G, A, C & D = 1, 2, 3, 5 & 6) just eliminate the 4th and 7th scale degrees of the F major scale to see how the F major pentatonic (the I maj pentatonic) projects over the fretboard and over these full F major scale patterns.

 

For the Bb major Pentatonic (Bb, C, D, F & G = 4, 5, 6, 1 & 2) just eliminate the 7th & 3rd scale degrees of the F major scale to see how the Bb major pentatonic (the IV major pentatonic) projects over the fretboard and over these full F major scale patterns.

 

For the C major Pentatonic (C, D, E, G & A = 5, 6, 7, 2 & 3) just eliminate the 1st & 4th scale degrees of the F major scale to see how the C major pentatonic (the V major pentatonic) projects over the fretboard and over these full F major scale patterns.

 

When you eliminate two of the seven scale degrees, you effectively eliminate two of the seven scale forms - bringing the number of pentatonic scale forms to the five commonly known major pentatonic scale fingerings with one minor modification to one of the forms.

[ATTACH]330285[/ATTACH]

 

 

cheers,

[scolfax]

Thanks Jed!