Pentatonics question

[scolfax]

I just stumbled across the knowledge that the five pentatonic shapes can be played in three different places over the major scale. For example, in the key of G, The G Pentatonic shape can be played over the 12th fret (this has always seemed normal/common to me), as well as the 5th fret, or the 7th fret.

 

Do people do this? What are they called?

 

G Shape over 5th fret = ? Pentatonic Minor & ? Pentatonic Major

G Shape over 7th fret = ? Pentatonic Minor & ? Pentatonic Major

G Shape over 12th fret = E Pentatonic Minor & ? Pentatonic Major

 

Thanks!

[beisenla]

 

I just stumbled across the knowledge that the five pentatonic shapes can be played in three different places over the major scale. For example, in the key of G, The G Pentatonic shape can be played over the 12th fret (this has always seemed normal/common to me), as well as the 5th fret, or the 7th fret. Do people do this? What are they called? G Shape over 5th fret = ? Pentatonic Minor & ? Pentatonic Major G Shape over 7th fret = ? Pentatonic Minor & ? Pentatonic Major G Shape over 12th fret = E Pentatonic Minor & ? Pentatonic Major Thanks!

 

 

If I understand your question correctly it would be

 

G Shape @ 5th Fret - A Minor and C Major Pentatonics (C Major would be the same shape starting with the C on the 8th Fret)

G Shape @ 7th Fret - B Minor and D Major Pentatonics (D Major would be the same shape starting with the D on the 10th Fret)

G Shape @ 12th Fret - E Minor and G Major Pentatonics (G Major would be the same shape starting with the G on the 15th Fret)

 

Note that in each case above the minor is actually the relative minor of the major (e.g. A is the relative minor of C).

 

Hopefully this is what you were asking.

[Jed]

It might help if you define what you mean by the "G pentatonic shape".

 

Having said that, the five pentatonic forms can each be played in three locations using notes diatonic to any one major scale. G pentatonic (Em pent), C pentatonic (Am pent) and D pentatonic (Bm pent) all contain different notes and use the same five fingerings but all three fit within the G major scale.

[scolfax]

Thanks beisenla, that helps a lot. So is it common to mix and match some of these in a solo? Are these like pentatonic modes?

 

Also, on a related note, where/what is the relative scale? I read that the relative scale for a pentatonic was "three frets down". So that would mean that a 12th fret E Minor Pentatonic scale would have a relative scale starting at the 9th fret. But what doesn't make sense about that is that while the E Minor Pentatonic has all of the notes of G Major, it's relative scale wouldn't. Is that correct? Is that OK?

[scolfax]

 

Having said that, the five pentatonic forms can each be played in three locations using notes diatonic to any one major scale. G pentatonic (Em pent), C pentatonic (Am pent) and D pentatonic (Bm pent) all contain different notes and use the same five fingerings but all three fit within the G major scale.

 

 

Cool, that verifies what I just learned. Up until now I always thought they could be played in one position! Now I'm trying to find out how these are generally used. Do people just mix and match? For instance, does Clapton use all three? Does he prefer one or two? I feel like I'm stumbling across some secret that everyone else knows.

[Alexbiscuit]

i remember when i discovered lead patterns- my face was like

i had been playing with box shapes for so long, that i was slowly developing the images in my head of how to move among them horizontally

 

then i discovered the lead patterns, something that wouldve probably been given to me by a teacher but i seemed to have missed the concept, being self taught.

 

but since i already knew the fretboard so well, in a matter of minutes i was flying around and my playing became much more expressive.

 

unlockin doors unlockin doors

[Alexbiscuit]

"For instance, does Clapton use all three?"

 

I'd say forget that you have three instances of a single shape you recognize and just use it for the primary position at the 12th fret.

 

you need to visualize the fretboard as one connected piece, not by little segments you can stay in.

 

memorize the 5 boxes, practice bridging them together, then you won't ever need to look at the fretboard again during phrases.

[benzem]

 

Thanks beisenla, that helps a lot. So is it common to mix and match some of these in a solo? Are these like pentatonic modes? Also, on a related note, where/what is the relative scale? I read that the relative scale for a pentatonic was "three frets down". So that would mean that a 12th fret E Minor Pentatonic scale would have a relative scale starting at the 9th fret. But what doesn't make sense about that is that while the E Minor Pentatonic has all of the notes of G Major, it's relative scale wouldn't. Is that correct? Is that OK?

 

 

Still confused.

 

But Em pent relative major is G maj pent.

 

So what do you mean Em's relative?

[Alexbiscuit]

I think he thinks all scales have a 'relative scale' 3 steps down. But really, it's a two-way street.

 

Yes, Em is G Major's relative scale

 

so that means G Major is Em's relative scale as well

 

every major has a relative minor and vice vera

[Eddie]

Be mindful that the shapes can be of the minor pentatonic or major pentatonic scales.

In your illustration my guess is that the dark circle indicates the root note, and it is the Major Pentatonic scale.

Take Shape 5, and consider that the circled 1 is on the 12th fret. The Root would be on the 15th fret, making it a G Major Pentatonic Scale.

If you play the same shape but make the 12th fret 6th string (E) the root, you would be playing the E minor Pentatonic Scale.

Same notes, different sound. Especially against different chords.

 

You could play a whole song (or much of the song) in a single position, and Clapton has done that. As an example, Freddie King's San-Ho-Say stays pretty much on the 10th fret. Most good blues guitarists will combine notes from both the Major and minor pentatonic scales. That may be the "secret" you're discovering, and it will allow you to play different flavors of blues, from sweet to sad to in-between.

 

As has been mentioned there's one relative major/minor relationship.

[scolfax]

 

Yes, Em is G Major's relative scale ... every major has a relative minor and vice vera

 

 

Yes, I know that, but the book I have "The Art of Playing Rock Guitar" mentions something else (I think?) called "The Relative Scale" on page 106. Here are the pertinent sentences, with some fluff removed (caps straight from the book):

 

 

The relative scale is a second pentatonic five-note scale that is of vital importance to the rock/blues guitarist. The five note relative scale has a pattern which is IDENTICAL TO THE BLUES SCALE PATTERN IN EVERY WAY WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ITS POSITION. The pattern of the relative scale takes its place exactly THREE FRETS BELOW THE BLUES SCALE PATTERN IN ANY KEY. This is why I used the term "relative" to name this unique pentatonic scale. Now get this, the relative is actually a five note subset of the major scale . The relative's spelling is 1, 2, 3, 5, 6.

 

 

There's more, but he adds this, which made it sound important to me:

 

 

Want to hear this breakdown being applied? Get any B.B. King recording. Want to see the lowdown work out. Rent a video of Eric Clapton in concert. Blues scale, relative scale, the mix ...all night long!

 

 

Trouble is, when I look for the relative scale in, say the key of G Major, I don't see it. Those notes are way outside the box.

 

Edit: He talks about the same thing in Blues Guitar Inside and Out:

Because the pattern of both considered scales is the same, the relative scale for the key of A is identical in every way to the blues scale in F sharp. The same thing goes for the relative scale in E and the blues scale in C sharp.

 

[Alexbiscuit]

his use of "relative scale" implies a major pentatonic scale, not an entire 7-note scale.

 

"Blues scale" = minor pentatonic

 

using his words:

 

the "relative scale" of G major would be "E blues scale". that's misleading.

 

he REALLY means to say the G major's relative is Eminor, which you already know. They share a *pentatonic* shape but they have different roots/notes.

[Eddie]

One way to look at it is by looking at the pattern without thinking about scales for a moment.

 

Shape 5 on your illustration shows a pentatonic pattern. If your index finger is in the 15th fret position and follow the pattern, you would be playing the G minor pentatonic scale. This is 3 frets above the diagram you have. (Root G under your index at the 15th fret 6th string.)

Now, move 3 frets down. Just like on the diagram, your index will be on the 12th fret and your pinky on the 15th. The pattern is the same, but you are still in the key of G. In this case, you're playing the G Major pentatonic. (Root G under your pinky at the 15th fret 6th string.)

In this case, the notes from the G Major Pentatonic scale are the same as those of the E minor pentatonic scale. Just like the notes from A minor (ABCDEFG) are the same as the notes of C major (CDEFGAB).

[RichardMid]

Alexbiscuit is right.. G major is the "relative major" of E minor (and E blues), and E minor/blues is the "relative minor" of G major. Strictly speaking, there is no "relative scale" per se, but there is a relative major and a relative minor, each being the relative of the other - they function very much like modes of each other (though "mode" is a term normally reserved for 7-note scales).

 

The quote from "The Art of Playing Rock Guitar," if it's being quoted correctly here, is misleading. As quoted, the author says that the "relative scale" is three frets below the blues scale. But the minor/blues scale is itself the relative minor of some major scale, and that major scale would be three frets UP from the minor, not down.

 

That is, when you have a pair of relative major/minor scales, which are separated by three frets, the minor scale is the lower of the two, and the major is the higher. (e.g. G major/E minor, C major/A minor, etc.)

 

The "Blues Guitar" quote, however, gives correct examples of this relationship: F# minor/blues and A major are relatives of each other and share the same tones, as do E major and C# minor/blues.

 

-Richard M

www.rhythmguitarsecrets.com

 

PS - When looking at the major relative of a minor blues scale, what had been the blue flat-5 passing tone becomes the blue flatted-third passing tone. It's the same tone, and can be slid/bent in and out of just as nicely in either a minor or a major context. For example, A minor blues: A C D Eb E G (A). Its relative major is C major, and the Eb now functions as a flatted third: C D Eb E G A ©.

 

Nearly all of your minor blues licks will work in a major context, and what had been a bend into/out of the fifth (into/out of E, that is) becomes a bend to/from the third.

 

The only real no-no between the two contexts is that, in A blues, you might push the C up into a C# to get a major third against an A7 chord. But you wouldn't use that note in the same way in C major, because C is the tonic now, and pushing it sharp wouldn't get you anything useful against any of the chords (unless you were doing some fancy V-of-II move, which is a topic for another day).

[scolfax]

 

his use of "relative scale" implies a major pentatonic scale, not an entire 7-note scale. "Blues scale" = minor pentatonic using his words: the "relative scale" of G major would be "E blues scale". that's misleading. he REALLY means to say the G major's relative is Eminor, which you already know. They share a *pentatonic* shape but they have different roots/notes.

 

 

OK, what you are saying makes sense. And I get that the notes in the major and relative major are the same.

 

However, he's showing a diagram that overlaps both the blues and (what he calls) relative scales and calling it a "Universal Blues Scale", and says "Sometimes they are thrown in one at a time. Sometimes they are all used together to make a great EIGHT NOTE SCALE..."

 

It seems that this eight note scale contains the 1, 2, -3, 3, 4, 5, 6, -7 degrees of the scale, not all of which are in the related diatonic scale.

[Poparad]

 

OK, what you are saying makes sense. And I get that the notes in the major and relative major are the same. However, he's showing a diagram that overlaps both the blues and (what he calls) relative scales and calling it a "Universal Blues Scale", and says "Sometimes they are thrown in one at a time. Sometimes they are all used together to make a great EIGHT NOTE SCALE..." It seems that this eight note scale contains the 1, 2, -3, 3, 4, 5, 6, -7 degrees of the scale, not all of which are in the related diatonic scale.

 

 

 

 

First, let's clear up this "relative" business (and introduce "parallel").

 

Let's start with the G major scale. Its relative minor is indeed three frets down, which is E minor pentatonic. Same scale, though, same notes. The only thing that's different is the E is the tonic in the scale instead of the G being the tonic.

 

However, where you went astray was starting with minor and trying to find its relative major. The relative major is three frets *up* from the minor root (not down). So basically you get the same pair: G major and E minor. Same scale, different tonics within the scale.

 

Parallel minor is another common concept, although very simple to grasp. The parallel minor of G major is G minor. The tonic stays the same, but the rest of the scale changes a bit.

 

Now, onto pentatonics:

 

Within any major scale there are indeed three major pentatonic scales. There's one that corresponds to the I chord, one for the IV chord, and one for the V chord. In the key of G major, the I, IV, and V chords are G major, C major, and D major. Within the seven note G major scale, you can pluck out of it the notes for G major pentatonic, C major pentatonic, and D major pentatonic.

 

This is also how the pentatonics tend to be used: when the song switches to the D chord, the soloist will switch with that to the D major pentatonic scale. When the song goes back to the G chord, the soloist will switch back to the G major pentatonic scale.

 

If you look at the relative minor pentatonics of each of those three major pentatonics, you get this:

 

G major pentatonic -> E minor pentatonic

C major pentatonic -> A minor pentatonic

D major pentatonic -> B minor pentatonic

 

There happens to also be three minor chords in the key of G major, which each correspond to those three minor pentatonics. The ii, iii, and vi chords are Am, Bm, and Em.

 

 

Now, in blues playing, it's common to force the parallel minor pentatonic scale on top of a major chord. For example, on a G chord, you can force the G minor pentatonic scale, even though some of the notes technically clash with it. They clash, but if played correctly, they clash in the very musical, bluesy way. It's not always appropriate to do this, but when you want the sound of the blues clash, then this is how to get it.

 

What some players do is combine this clash with a more consonant, 'correct' major pentatonic. So on a G chord, you can switch between G major pentatonic (which will always sound pleasant) and G minor pentatonic (which will clash a bit). It's also common to combine these two scales together to form one large, eight note composite scale. This is what you were asking about in the post.

[scolfax]

Thank you so much! It all makes sense now!

[Eddie]

 

OK, what you are saying makes sense. And I get that the notes in the major and relative major are the same. However, he's showing a diagram that overlaps both the blues and (what he calls) relative scales and calling it a "Universal Blues Scale", and says "Sometimes they are thrown in one at a time. Sometimes they are all used together to make a great EIGHT NOTE SCALE..." It seems that this eight note scale contains the 1, 2, -3, 3, 4, 5, 6, -7 degrees of the scale, not all of which are in the related diatonic scale.

 

 

If you look at the Blues diagram I attached, you get:

1(T), 2, b3, 3, 4, b5, 5, 6, b7

The b5 is part of the Blues scale

 

In addition you can use notes between the notes, like a 3 that falls between the b3 and 3, usually notated as a 1/4 bend, and passing tones.

[RichardMid]

Ah, scolfax, now I see what your book author is driving at, with the superimposition/combination of different scales into a kind of "uber-scale." Yes, that's really more how advanced players would approach it. Playing over G in a "bluesy" way could encompass notes from G minor pentatonic/G blues and G major pentatonic, which you could also see (if you want to talk 7-note scales) as a fusion of G mixolydian and G dorian, with the addition of the flat-5 as a passing tone. And, over the V chord (D7), even the major 7 (F# in this case) of the home key could be used, because it becomes the third of the chord (but it would be off-limits the rest of the time, pretty much).

 

One thing to keep in mind is that, while there is this "uber-scale" principle in effect, how you use it depends very much on the chords. For example, over a G/G7 I chord in the blues, you could play minor pent over it, or you could push the thirds up a half-step from time to time, to "catch" the major third in your chord - that is, you could play B-flat in your scale, or raise it (tastefully) to a B. But when the C7 (IV) hits, you can't play B any more, you have to drop it back to B-flat, because C7 is C E G B-flat.

 

In other words, you can slip in and out of major or minor pentatonics, you can use these cool passing tones, and all the rest of it, but the overriding considerations are how to maintain the sense of G being the tonic (though not always the root), while also conforming to the chords as they change underneath you... and, of course, what's idiomatic for the style of music you're playing.

 

Poparad's theory is right on, though I'd question his statement that switching from (in a G blues context) G major pentatonic to C major pentatonic to D major pentatonic on the I, IV, and V chords is "how the pentatonics tend to be used." You can do that, yes, but it's usually done briefly, to get certain effects (such as to catch the third on the V chord, as I mentioned above).. Relying on that approach too much would create a sound that's not very idiomatic to the blues or to rock.

 

Like the old saying, talking about music is like dancing about architecture. The best way to get up to speed with these concepts is to study and learn solos that use them. Even relatively simple solos can be ear-opening.. like Angus Young's solo on "You Shook Me All Night Long," in which he slips in and out of G minor- and G major-type licks in a very clear and exemplary way.

 

All good blues-influenced players do this kind of thing as a matter of course.

 

-Richard M

www.rhythmguitarsecrets.com

[JonR]

In the CAGED system, shape 5 in this diagram is known as the G pentatonic shape:

Just to confirm - in those fret positions, those are all G major pentatonic scales.

If you combine any one of them with a G minor pentatonic patten, in the same position, you will get that 8-note scale: 1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 b7.

 

Those diagrams are actually not a lot of use in that form, IMO. Get rid of the finger numbers (you don't need them; obviously the fingers are going to go in that order, because are the easiest, most practical placements) and replace them with scale degrees - that will help you see how they work and how they relate to the key scale.

Take "Shape 1" (I'm going to show it horizontally, because that's easier using text. Fret numbers are shown above.

 with both (not C or D minor pent).
 

If you want to keep things simple and just use G minor pent throughout, you still should be aware of those chord shapes (shapes for G, C and D chords around whatever pattern you are using). G minor pent fits the C pretty well, but is a bit more outside on the D: you may need to do a bit more bending, or just avoid one or two notes.
 

The more you get into this, the more you should realise that the chord shapes are your friends.  They are not an extra complication, but the stepping stones that guide you through.  Most jazz players work from chords, and don't think much about scales at all.

[mosiddiqi]

like Angus Young's solo on "You Shook Me All Night Long," in which he slips in and out of G minor- and G major-type licks in a very clear and exemplary way. All good blues-influenced players do this kind of thing as a matter of course. -Richard M www.rhythmguitarsecrets.com

 

That's the solo I always recommend people learn in order to get a handle on how to mix up Major/minor pentatonics with lots of attitude!..Welcome to the LL btw Richard M!..good to have even more people to learn from!.

[scolfax]

My head is exploding - this is great stuff!

 

The major pents work chord by chord, but the minor pent (in blues anyway) works from the keynote only. So in key of G, the major pents of G, C and D are all "diatonic" - they are different subsets of the G major scale: G major pent = G A B D E C major pent = C D E G A D major pent = D E F# A B Normally, therefore, you would change pents according to what chord you were on, to remain as "inside" the chord as possible. (You don't have to move up or down the neck to do this, because one of the other major pent shapes will be nearby.) With the minor pent (in blues), you would use G minor pent on ALL the chords. IOW, you don't switch to C minor or D minor pent for the other chords. (You can see why this is such an attractive strategy for beginners! Only one scale to think about... and it sounds cool too! )

 

What is the reason that you would not want to change pentatonics for the minor chords? I understand the rule you're describing, but don't understand why it would be different from the approach to playing over the major chords.

 

I have always just played the minor pentatonic in the right key, never following the chords. But I knew that some ingredient was missing and I think this thread is getting me there. In a way I'm a little irritated at the books I've bought over the years. Only those two Richard Daniels books have come close to touching this topic, but obviously were not as clear as this thread at making the point.

 

Are there any good books out there that focus on this area? Seems that having some exercises related to this would be worthwhile.

[Alexbiscuit]

i'm learning a lot too!

 

you don't change up from G minor pentatonic to C/D minor pentatonic during the C and D major chords because the song is in the Key of G Major. The mechanic here is how the key's minor pentatonic scale sounds -against- the harmonized major scale, which is the blues sound

[Alexbiscuit]

to better clarify, the notes inside C and D major are already contained within G Major. Which is why G minor sounds good over them. Bluesy.

 

the notes inside C and D minor are the same as the notes inside E-flat Major and F major, respectively. So if you played C minor over C Major and D minor over D Major, it's like playing E-flat Major over C major and F major over D Major.

 

Try it, doesn't sound too good!

[polishpaul]

Great thread!

 

This was good from RichardMid:

 

"When looking at the major relative of a minor blues scale, what had been the blue flat-5 passing tone becomes the blue flatted-third passing tone. It's the same tone, and can be slid/bent in and out of just as nicely in either a minor or a major context. For example, A minor blues: A C D Eb E G (A). Its relative major is C major, and the Eb now functions as a flatted third: C D Eb E G A ©.

 

Nearly all of your minor blues licks will work in a major context, and what had been a bend into/out of the fifth (into/out of E, that is) becomes a bend to/from the third.

 

The only real no-no between the two contexts is that, in A blues, you might push the C up into a C# to get a major third against an A7 chord. But you wouldn't use that note in the same way in C major, because C is the tonic now, and pushing it sharp wouldn't get you anything useful against any of the chords...."

This was good, from Poparad:

 

"Now, in blues playing, it's common to force the parallel minor pentatonic scale on top of a major chord. For example, on a G chord, you can force the G minor pentatonic scale, even though some of the notes technically clash with it. They clash, but if played correctly, they clash in the very musical, bluesy way. It's not always appropriate to do this, but when you want the sound of the blues clash, then this is how to get it.

 

What some players do is combine this clash with a more consonant, 'correct' major pentatonic. So on a G chord, you can switch between G major pentatonic (which will always sound pleasant) and G minor pentatonic (which will clash a bit)........"

So, what can we deduce?

 

My take is that "switching between major and minor pentatonics" is fancy talk for sticking in a "clashy" note from time to time. If you're going through a major pent and want a clash (timed to perfection, of course), you look to a note from the minor pent which isn't in the major pent, and vice versa.

 

Not something you would do too often, otherwise you'd lose the (hopefully) dramatic effect of the clash. But if you don't put any clashy notes in...........well........say goodbye to chicks, limos and all-night parties !

 

 

I found this video useful, especially regarding the "extra" notes in blues/pent scales.

 

[video=youtube;br674UoySg4]