Pentatonics question

[jeremy_green]

Mildly baffled by that vid.

 

I am sure he is a cool guy and I dig what he is presenting, but dont really relate to a lot of what was said. That "second scale" a.k.a. pentatonic minor shape #2 (it's all the same scale). He also says "the coolest part of it is found here in this little bit" - I find that quite limiting advice. Same with the "always downpick" thing. Not meaning to be a goof but he is one sloppy player! It is always hard hearing a cat with such a limited palette talk about "feel" and kind of slagging "speed". His points are taken, but when your technique is that weak it is difficult to take the message fully seriously.

[polishpaul]

But he does know where the "extra" notes are ........that was the point of posting, really. I found it useful because I could see what he was doing with his fingers.

[Alexbiscuit]

read my 2 posts above

[scolfax]

 

read my 2 posts above

 

 

OK, I added the seasoning bit. Is that what you were talking about?

[Alexbiscuit]

nope!

 

i was stating that in the key of G Major, over the IV and V chords (C and D major respectively) for now the ONLY minor you should be thinking about over all of those major chords is G minor (or G blues, whateva).

 

for Am, Bm, Em, etc chords you can play Am, Bm, Em scales.

 

the reason you can play G minor and G minor alone over those other major chords is because they contain all of the same notes as G major. The blues sound is the slight dissonance heard between the Key of G major and the notes in G minor.

 

 

----

 

 

once you understand that concept, then you should start thinking about using relative minor pentatonics over the major chords (Em pentatonic for G Maj, A minor pentatonic for C Maj, B minor pentatonic for D Maj).

[benzem]

nope! i was stating that in the key of G Major, over the IV and V chords (C and D major respectively) for now the ONLY minor you should be thinking about over all of those major chords is G minor (or G blues, whateva). for Am, Bm, Em, etc chords you can play Am, Bm, Em scales. the reason you can play G minor and G minor alone over those other major chords is because they contain all of the same notes as G major. The blues sound is the slight dissonance heard between the Key of G major and the notes in G mi ---- once you understand that concept, then you should start thinking about using relative minor pentatonics over the major chords (Em pentatonic for G Maj, A minor pentatonic for C Maj, B minor pentatonic for D Maj).

 

This. SO THIS!

[Jed]

Do we have a more basic problem here?

 

Do people know how to write out / construct their scales.

 

It seems that people are asking very basic questions and we are ignoring the fundamental problem relative to a lack of basic scale construction skills. All this talk about parallel minors won't really make sense to people that don't already know what notes are involved, will it?

 

cheers,

[Alexbiscuit]

the best thing about guitar for me has been the journey from seeing the neck as this amazingly huge span of tons of notes everywhere shrink down to this really small, simple, manageable array of notes that i can fly to with ease- making me wish the fretboard was bigger

 

the more you chip away the more it all clicks, and the big picture gets... not-so-big.

[polishpaul]

Hi, Benzem!

 

I'm following this thread closely, but could you please clarify what you meant in this paragraph:

 

"Bm? NO! Now Bm does contain a C#, which is the maj 3rd of G. So just think of it as the major 3rd of G. It also contains an E, the major 6th. So, yup, think of it as the major 6th!"

[Eddie]

 

What is the reason that you would not want to change pentatonics for the minor chords?... Are there any good books out there that focus on this area? Seems that having some exercises related to this would be worthwhile.

 

 

There are 2 basic approaches to improvisation:

Vertical: Based on chords. A player views each chord separately.

Horizontal: A player finds a scale that fits all chords.

 

This is simplified, and you can combine both approaches. You can change scales for the IV and V in a Blues progression. If you do this, you run the risk of losing the "thread" holding your solo together or losing the Blues sound. You can also come up with more interesting sounding solos.

 

As far as books go, Don Latarski's Blues Guitar is very good. He begins by going through the chord notes, adds more notes, and only later introduces scales. Most books just start out with the pentatonic minor and/or the Blues scale. Latarski's approach is more insightful IMO, and on the long term I think it brings more benefit. I also enjoyed his Practical Theory For Guitar.

[scolfax]

 

Poparad's theory is right on, though I'd question his statement that switching from (in a G blues context) G major pentatonic to C major pentatonic to D major pentatonic on the I, IV, and V chords is "how the pentatonics tend to be used." You can do that, yes, but it's usually done briefly, to get certain effects (such as to catch the third on the V chord, as I mentioned above).. Relying on that approach too much would create a sound that's not very idiomatic to the blues or to rock.

 

 

Richard, did you mean to say minor?

[Alexbiscuit]

I'm sure he meant major. Forget that C and D minor even exist in the key of G Maj.

 

He was saying that playing G Maj pentatonic, then C Maj pentatonic, then D Maj pentatonic for a I IV V progression really isn't the way to solo. It's mechanical and uneconomical.

[scolfax]

I deleted my chart because it was probably wrong. Let me try a bullet-point approach instead.

 

- In the key of G, you can play G major pentatonic / E minor pentatonic (same notes, different roots) over any chord in the key.

 

- You can also play C Major pentatonic & A Minor Pentatonic (same notes, different roots) and/or D Major pentatonic & B Minor Pentatonic (same notes, different roots) over any chord in the key.

 

- Over the IV or V chords, which are major, you can play G minor pentatonic.

 

I feel like I'm missing one more point that was mentioned in this thread. Thanks again, getting there!

[Eddie]

 

- Over the IV or V chords, which are major, you can play G minor pentatonic.

 

 

You can also play it over the I chord.

[Alexbiscuit]

all correct,

Except you can play G minor over the I / Gmaj chord as well.

 

All the scales above have all of the same notes in them, all part of of the same harmonized Gmaj scale with different intervals -except- G minor. It's close enough to use, and sounds bluesy. So you're most likely going to use G minor for your licks. Knowing the other chord tones from the major pentatonic shapes will help your phrasing.

 

I'm not a know it all, I am just figuring this all out at the moment also. I lovethe dialogue!

[polishpaul]

I think Scolfax's confusion may be to do with he posted about...

 

"D Major pentatonic & B Minor Pentatonic (same notes, different roots) over any chord in the key."

 

When you are in the key of D major.......yes.

 

In G major.........................................no.

 

 

That's what I've understood from this thread.

[polishpaul]

Hmmmm

 

 

Aha!

 

My confusion was to do with a reference to B minor and a later reference to B minor pentatonic. The B minor has a C#................but the pentatonic doesn't. I was just thinking about B minor (relative of D major) in both cases.

 

So the B minor pent is okay in G.......but B minor isn't.

 

Because B minor pent consists of notes of G major, and B minor doesn't.....the C# wouldn't sound too bluesy .

 

Thanks for all of that......I seem to have a better grasp of the whole thing now.

[scolfax]

Ok, thx about the I. As for the D, I thought this was 1 of the 3 pentatonics that maps cleanly over the G Major scale. See post #2.

[Alexbiscuit]

Wrong paul!

 

Look at the notes in B minor

 

And then look at the notes in G major

 

 

B D E F# A. - B minor pentatonic

 

G A B C D E F# G Maj scale

 

the notes are correct but they won't have the same sound against the tonic.

I mean you -could- start a B minor pentatonic lick when there's a chord change to G since B is G's 3rd- which then you're getting into chord tone soloing. I think?

[polishpaul]

Wrong paul! Look at the notes in B minor And then look at the notes in G major B D E F# A. - B minor pentatonic G A B C D E F# G Maj it wouldn't sound totally tonal but the notes are correct.

 

........B C# D E F# G A B...........that's B minor.

 

Are we at cross-purposes somehow?

[polishpaul]

I wrote:

 

"So the B minor pent is okay in G.......but B minor isn't."

 

I understood this was accurate.........ten minutes ago .

 

If not.........why not?

[polishpaul]

 

I mean you -could- start a B minor pentatonic lick when there's a chord change to G since B is G's 3rd- which then you're getting into chord tone soloing. I think?

 

 

I think you mean it's not the best option.

 

But B minor ( not pentatonic, just plain old B minor, not B Phrygian or any of that dark-side-of-town-radical-stuff) is out, in G, as I understand things.

[Jed]

 

I mean you -could- start a B minor pentatonic lick when there's a chord change to G since B is G's 3rd- which then you're getting into chord tone soloing. I think?

 

 

If I may, this whole conversation is so convoluted that at this point I'm amazed anyone can follow the logic. On some level we are always hearing notes relative to the chords of the moment - so on some level we are always talking about chord tones. Just because someone want to think in terms of one scale for a whole progression doesn't mean that the music or our ears will support that logic.

 

Why do people insist that some gross generalization is universally acceptable at all times to all people? If the OP doesn't know his scales in all keys then he stands no chance of understanding modes. Sure we can try to dumb things down with pentatonics but even then - there is some requirement that people actually know and understand the notes (and their functions relative to the chords and the key) involved.

 

This topic is not nearly as complicated as those that would have us using only blunt instruments would want us to believe. On the other hand, if we dare look ever so slightly deeper - the facts are clear and indisputable.

 

cheers

[polishpaul]

It was this bit, Benzem:

 

""Bm? NO! Now Bm does contain a C#, which is the maj 3rd of G."

 

Is that what you meant?

[Alexbiscuit]

 

........B C# D E F# G A B...........that's B minor. Are we at cross-purposes somehow?

 

 

 

I should have said B minor pentatonic in the sentence you highlighted, even though i said it two lines below, and then listed the notes in the pentatonic. All

Notes that reside in G Major.

 

B minor alone doesn't necessarily work because of that C#. So you can only use the pentatonic without sounding too lost for now.

 

ALTHOUGH, including that C# in your phrasing sounds AWESOME if you know when to use it. It's super tense and bluesy.

 

Its the 'blues note' G minor blues.