Pentatonics question

[scolfax]

For point two, this is from one of the books I keep mentioning:

 

 

However, he's showing a diagram that overlaps both the blues and (what he calls) relative scales and calling it a "Universal Blues Scale", and says "Sometimes they are thrown in one at a time. Sometimes they are all used together to make a great EIGHT NOTE SCALE..." It seems that this eight note scale contains the 1, 2, -3, 3, 4, 5, 6, -7 degrees of the scale, not all of which are in the related diatonic scale.

 

 

It sounded like exactly what Poparad mentioned in the quote in the post above this one.

[Eddie]

 

Is the combination of the A minor pentatonic and his "relative" scale really a combination of the major and minor pentatonic? Look at the bottom diagram - the minor pentatonic root is on the 6th string, 5th fret A. But that same pentatonic box shape is duplicated three frets down on the 2nd fret F#.

 

 

The "shape" on the second diagram, 2nd fret scale is like the minor pentatonic, but the root is not on the 2nd fret, it is on the 5th fret/6th string. That scale is the A Major Pentatonic. If you play the same notes and your root is on the 2nd fret/6th string you would be playing F# minor pentatonic.

Same shape, but different sounds and different scales (Major and minor pentatonic). Notice that none of those is the Blues scale. That one "typically" is the minor pentatonic with the b5.

[scolfax]

 

The "shape" on the second diagram, 2nd fret scale is like the minor pentatonic, but the root is not on the 2nd fret, it is on the 5th fret/6th string. That scale is the A Major Pentatonic. If you play the same notes and your root is on the 2nd fret/6th string you would be playing F# minor pentatonic. Same shape, but different sounds and different scales (Major and minor pentatonic). Notice that none of those is the Blues scale. That one "typically" is the minor pentatonic with the b5.

 

 

Thanks, that does help clarify things. Seems like he's generally misusing the word "Blues" when talking about scales.

[Eddie]

 

So I believe this, while intended to be a tool, justs clouds the issue. Badly.

 

 

I guess it depends on the context. Did the author arrive gradually to these graphs? Did he walk the student through every step?

The file I attached earlier on the thread shows a combination of major pentatonic, minor pentatonic, Blues scale, and chord tones. I may give a student that chart, but we would spend time on every part of the equation. In that context, or in the case of people who already know these scales, it is useful. On its own without any background, it can be confusing.

[Alexbiscuit]

it's all pretty ridic in my opinion to get shown a big chunk of the vertical fretboard and be able to take much away from it

 

the information has never sank in for me when looking at a diagram like that. maybe that's just me though

[Poparad]

 

For point two, this is from one of the books I keep mentioning: It sounded like exactly what Poparad mentioned in the quote in the post above this one.

 

 

Correct.

[Jed]

 

I would never teach it this way.

 

 

I'm not sure we even know what the author was trying to teach. The first example appeared to be the minor pent (which the author called the blues scale incorrectly) superimposed over it's parallel major pent. It's unfortunate that the author didn't use accepted / common terminology but that seems to be the case.

 

I would say the larger error is in trying to explain these concepts in terms of shapes when describing these things in terms of notes would have been much more concise and accurate.

 

cheers,

[JonR]

My head is exploding - this is great stuff! What is the reason that you would not want to change pentatonics for the minor chords? I understand the rule you're describing, but don't understand why it would be different from the approach to playing over the major chords.

I realise a lot of posts have flowed under the bridge since this one - and your head may well have exploded in many other directions since then - but I thought I'd come back just to clear this up.
I was referring to the major chords. In blues, the convention is to use "minor pent of I" over all the major chords (I-IV-V). In non-blues music, this doesn't apply. (I mean, you would make it sound like blues if you did this, which might not be appropriate.)

Outside of blues, in an unaltered major key, yes, you could apply the pent of each chord, whether that's major or minor. As well as the major I-IV-V chords, a major key contains three minor chords: ii, iii, vi. (Disregarding the rarely used vii dim chord.) This means using a subset of the key scale in each case. Eg, for key of G major:
G = G major pent = G A B D E
Am = A minor pent = A C D E G
Bm = B minor pent = B D E F# A
C = C major pent = C D E G A
D = D major pent = D E F# A B
Em = E minor pent = E G A B D
There are no notes there outside the key of G.
Moreover, this strategy gives you the chord tones on each chord (1-3-5), plus 2 consonant notes (2 and 6 on majors, 4 and 7 on minors). It's a way of playing so that you stay in key, but also address the chord changes, but without restricting yourself to arpeggios (which can sound stiff or dull).
You'll notice, of course, that there are only 3 different note-sets: the relative major and minor of each pent. I have simply spelled them from the chord root, but of course you needn't begin on this note when improvising, or have it as the lowest note of a pattern.
It's also worth noting that if you move (say) from a G to C chord, only one note of the pent differs (B become C) - and you should be able to make that adjustment within whatever pattern you are using.

Of course, each of those pents can be expanded to the full key scale (resulting in "modal" scales for each chord), but the pents are the best starting point. The additional 2 notes of each chord-mode can be very espressive, but can also be occasionally problematic. Beginning from the pents (or even the 1-3-5 arpeggios) gives you "no wrong notes", and also "centres" your ear, and helps you - later - hear those additional notes for the "added colours" they provide.

Again - as I mentioned - you should find the chord shapes (from the CAGED system) help you here, in finding shapes for the different chords in (roughly) the same fret position, and within the same scale pattern.

[Eddie]

 

Agreed but I suspect the authors intent in this diagram was to show how G major (heptonic) includes the various major pents of G, C & D.

 

 

I think it's not called heptonic. I remember them as heptatonic (7 notes), hexatonic (6), pentatonic (5). I could be wrong, though.

[JonR]

I think it's not called heptonic. I remember them as heptatonic (7 notes), hexatonic (6), pentatonic (5). I could be wrong, though.

If you are, then I am too.

"Heptonic" must refer to a particularly cool kind of jazz scale from the 1940s...

[polishpaul]

So, to hopefully and correctly paraphrase............

 

In a major blues, you're pretty well tied to the minor pentatonic over everything, except for "special effect" notes.

 

Outside of blues, you can use each chord's individual pentatonic scale, be it major or minor.

[polishpaul]

I've just had a cold shower to make it go away, but.........

 

I keep thinking about what works over a minor blues progression .

 

 

New thread?

 

 

I started here:

 

http://www.may-studio-music-lessons.com/minor-blues-progression.html

 

....which looks straightforward enough.........but is there more we should know? Where are the snazzy "clash" notes?

[mosiddiqi]

I've just had a cold shower to make it go away, but......... I keep thinking about what works over a minor blues progression . New thread? I started here: http://www.may-studio-music-lessons.com/minor-blues-progression.html ....which looks straightforward enough.........but is there more we should know? Where are the snazzy "clash" notes?

 

When I think "minor blues" I immediately think of Jimmy Page and "Since I've been loving you" which uses a mix of the minor pentatonic and the aeolian(natural minor) scale.

[jeremy_green]

I have been intentionally staying out of this thread until now and just wanted to add this.

Regardless the semantics of it all, what matters is how it sounds. Get yourself a looper pedal and try out a scale over a chord. Categorize the SOUND in your mind. Is it happy? Sad? Melancholy? What? Now when you want to create a mood, these understandings will help you get there.

To this discussion directly, in a G 12-bar - if you play Gmin pent it SOUNDS bluesy. If you play Gmaj it sounds brighter, happier - so if you are making musical statements, if you want to sound bluesy use minor. But remember that the major option is there and can be called upon at any time. None of this will mean squat to you unless you spend time applying it. Get it in your ears.

Almost ALL of it breaks down to understanding the link to the chord you are playing over.

[scolfax]

 

So I believe this, while intended to be a tool, justs clouds the issue. Badly. I would never teach it this way.

 

 

The problem is that there are like 3 "issues" in this thread. With my first post and this chart I was ONLY trying to say that I just found out that each of the 5 PENTATONIC BOX SHAPES (not scales) fit over the notes of a major key in three places. I was not addressing the fact that each shape can have major or minor roots.

 

I think I'm the only one that has referred to the box shapes in this thread. Fine, I know you all want to say "don't think about it that way" but I'm just trying to be as specific as I can about where my blind spot was.

 

Anyway, as a side effect I learned about the special blues rules for what to play over the I, IV and V chords.

[benzem]

it's all pretty ridic in my opinion to get shown a big chunk of the vertical fretboard and be able to take much away from it the information has never sank in for me when looking at a diagram like that. maybe that's just me though

 

 

Not just you!

[meganutt7]

I have been intentionally staying out of this thread until now and just wanted to add this. Regardless the semantics of it all, what matters is how it sounds . Get yourself a looper pedal and try out a scale over a chord. Categorize the SOUND in your mind. Is it happy? Sad? Melancholy? What? Now when you want to create a mood, these understandings will help you get there. To this discussion directly, in a G 12-bar - if you play Gmin pent it SOUNDS bluesy. If you play Gmaj it sounds brighter, happier - so if you are making musical statements, if you want to sound bluesy use minor. But remember that the major option is there and can be called upon at any time. None of this will mean squat to you unless you spend time applying it. Get it in your ears. Almost ALL of it breaks down to understanding the link to the chord you are playing over.

 

 

Jeremy,

 

While I agree with you on your assetrion regarding the G Pentatonic (Gm pentatonic, really) vs. the G major (mixolydian, really) over a 12 bar (or at least the I chord of the 12 bar...) sounding bluesy as opposed to major/happy, etc. I think the more important thing at play here (in this particular post) is the comparison of one scale over many chords. THAT really shows you the way things sound RELATIVE TO THEIR JUXTAPOSITION.

 

Meaning, if you play a Gm pentatonic scale, as an example, over a Gm chord, it sounds like "vanilla minor" (to me, at least). If you keep the same scale and play it over an Abmaj7 chord, you get this beautiful Lydian flavor.... If you play it over an E7#9#5, you get a crazy altered sound.... Over an Ebmaj7 you get a really nice open sounding major tonality... If you play it over an Fm9 you will get a very Dorian sound. I could offer a few more chords over which Gm pentatonic would yield more "unique" sounds... LIke over a C7, for instance, or a G7 (blues context), or Bbmaj7 ("Vanilla Major"), or A7sus4b9 (Phrygian-esque), etc. etc.

 

There is certainly a huge school of thought and practice on this topic, coming out of the whole post-bop movement and even moreso the post Coltrane movement, headed by the likes of McCoy Tyner, who really helped codify this sort of approach.

 

There is a book by Jerry Bergonzi, from his Inside Improvisation series. It's volume 2 - Pentatonics. This book really opens your eyes to all the uses of a pentatonic scale. And not only the minor pentatonic. He uses many others. The min6 pent, the m7b5 pent, etc.

 

When you play over changes, this can be a valuable resource.

 

Going back to a "trick" I learned from Scofield a while back (when I was a young pup), and this is something I have brought up before... Say you're playing over a ii-V-I-VI in C: Over the Dm7 you can play Am pentatonic (which gives you a slightly more open sound because of the 9th replacing the minor 3rd), to Bbm Pnet over G7alt. (this gives you all the altered notes plus the dominant 7th), to Bm Pent for Cmaj 7 (gives you a Lydian sound), to Cm pent over the A7alt. (same logic as the G7, just a whole step up...)

 

So, essentially, you are going up a half step every time the chord changes, but the RELATIONSHIP of EACH PENTATONIC to the underlying chord is what makes this logic work AND sound great.

 

I think a very valuable thing for players to do is to loop a pentatonic lick or scale and then PLAY A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT CHORDS UNDERNEATH and see what sound each yields.

[jeremy_green]

Totally agree Danny!

 

My larger point was you need to HEAR all this in order for it to get from paper to sound. A lot of times, you read something and it seems confusing... but when you actually pick up the instrument and play the examples, it can be so much simpler than it first seemed. For me personally, I cant do ANYTHING until I can hear it. Anything meaningful that is.

 

Here is the dumb guy way to figure all this out. From the self professed king of dumb guy approaches. : )

 

Take a chord type (pick one and play it on any note, lets say A):

Major (so A Major)

minor (A minor)

dominant (I think you get it)

diminished

augmented

 

Then take a scale form:

A Ionian form

A Dorian

A Phrygian

A Lydian

A Mixolydian

A Aeolian

A Locrian

A Pentatonic minor

A Pentatonic Major

A minor blues scale

A diminished scale

A augmented scale

A on and on

 

Then try superimosing these scales from a different root over the home chord. The possibilities are endless.

 

Try each scale form over each chord (here is where a looper pedal is extraordinary) and make a checklist of what sounded good and what didnt. Then try to figure out why based on the notes involved. Make your own observations and preferences. Work to integrate those sounds into your playing. Instead of coming here and saying "What can i use?" come here and say "Why does the xyz form sound so cool over this chord?".

 

Developing your own approaches is part of developing your own style. Who cares really why everyone else likes it or hates it - why do you? THEN use your theory to catalogue it for application. The real gold is mined in the search not the answer. Least that has been my experience.

[scolfax]

The "shape" on the second diagram, 2nd fret scale is like the minor pentatonic, but the root is not on the 2nd fret, it is on the 5th fret/6th string. That scale is the A Major Pentatonic.

So that means that Daniels is saying that you can switch from A Minor Pentatonic to A Major Pentatonic. But he's not clear when you would do this. This sounds suspiciously close to the parallel scale that was mentioned elsewhere in here.

[JonR]

So that means that Daniels is saying that you can switch from A Minor Pentatonic to A Major Pentatonic. But he's not clear when you would do this. This sounds suspiciously close to the parallel scale that was mentioned elsewhere in here.

That's exactly right.
When you would do this would ideally be over an A major chord. The A major pent is more "inside" on that chord than A minor pent, and sounds "brighter".
As Jeremy is saying, the best way to understand this is to play it. Set up an A major chord vamp and try both scales. Listen to the overall effect of each scale, and also to each individual note in each scale.

On the D chord (IV in key of A), A major pent fits less well. In a blues it would probably sound strange, because A major pent contains a C#, the maj7 of the chord - and the chord is likely to be D7, ie, including a C natural.
On the E chord likewise, A major pent has one note (A) that doesn't sound too good on the chord.
(But again, try out the various options and listen to them.)

This goes back to what I was saying in my earlier post - when using major pents, apply them to each chord root. IOW, the major pent is an extension of the chord itself, adding the 2nd (or 9th) and 6th. Likewise the minor pent is an extension of a minor chord, adding the 4th and b7.

However - blues is a special case, because it's distinguished by having movable pitches: the 3rd can be minor or major, the 7th is usually flat, and we might even have a b5. (This is totally alien to the conventional harmonic practices that music theory is based on.)
So the way we approach this flexibility (using the tools of western music) is to use major chords (or dom7s) for the harmony, but a minor scale for melodies or solos. That means we can bend up the b3 of the minor scale if we want (if we want to approach the M3 of the chord). (Try it the other way - minor chords with a major melody scale - it sounds terrible.)

The alternative is to combine parallel minor and major pents - but that won't work equally on every chord. (It will to some extent, but not entirely. That is, it may sound OK, but it might not sound quite correct for the genre. The rules of blues idiom are quite subtle.)

So a lot of the issues/problems here are down to trying to explain blues using theoretical tools which weren't designed for it.

[meganutt7]

Totally agree Danny! My larger point was you need to HEAR all this in order for it to get from paper to sound. A lot of times, you read something and it seems confusing... but when you actually pick up the instrument and play the examples, it can be so much simpler than it first seemed. For me personally, I cant do ANYTHING until I can hear it. Anything meaningful that is. Here is the dumb guy way to figure all this out. From the self professed king of dumb guy approaches. : ) Take a chord type (pick one and play it on any note, lets say A): Major (so A Major) minor (A minor) dominant (I think you get it) diminished augmented Then take a scale form: A Ionian form A Dorian A Phrygian A Lydian A Mixolydian A Aeolian A Locrian A Pentatonic minor A Pentatonic Major A minor blues scale A diminished scale A augmented scale A on and on Then try superimosing these scales from a different root over the home chord. The possibilities are endless. Try each scale form over each chord (here is where a looper pedal is extraordinary) and make a checklist of what sounded good and what didnt. Then try to figure out why based on the notes involved. Make your own observations and preferences. Work to integrate those sounds into your playing. Instead of coming here and saying "What can i use?" come here and say "Why does the xyz form sound so cool over this chord?". Developing your own approaches is part of developing your own style. Who cares really why everyone else likes it or hates it - why do you? THEN use your theory to catalogue it for application. The real gold is mined in the search not the answer. Least that has been my experience.

 

 

Agreed, Jeremy. Inspired idea!!

[scolfax]

That's exactly right. When you would do this would ideally be over an A major chord. The A major pent is more "inside" on that chord than A minor pent, and sounds "brighter". As Jeremy is saying, the best way to understand this is to play it. Set up an A major chord vamp and try both scales. Listen to the overall effect of each scale, and also to each individual note in each scale. On the D chord (IV in key of A), A major pent fits less well. In a blues it would probably sound strange, because A major pent contains a C#, the maj7 of the chord - and the chord is likely to be D7, ie, including a C natural. On the E chord likewise, A major pent has one note (A) that doesn't sound too good on the chord. (But again, try out the various options and listen to them.) This goes back to what I was saying in my earlier post - when using major pents, apply them to each chord root. IOW, the major pent is an extension of the chord itself, adding the 2nd (or 9th) and 6th. Likewise the minor pent is an extension of a minor chord, adding the 4th and b7. However - blues is a special case, because it's distinguished by having movable pitches : the 3rd can be minor or major, the 7th is usually flat, and we might even have a b5. (This is totally alien to the conventional harmonic practices that music theory is based on.) So the way we approach this flexibility (using the tools of western music) is to use major chords (or dom7s) for the harmony, but a minor scale for melodies or solos. That means we can bend up the b3 of the minor scale if we want (if we want to approach the M3 of the chord). (Try it the other way - minor chords with a major melody scale - it sounds terrible.) The alternative is to combine parallel minor and major pents - but that won't work equally on every chord. (It will to some extent, but not entirely. That is, it may sound OK, but it might not sound quite correct for the genre . The rules of blues idiom are quite subtle.) So a lot of the issues/problems here are down to trying to explain blues using theoretical tools which weren't designed for it.

 

Great post, thanks! I will definitely play over the vamp and listen.

[scolfax]

That's exactly right.

 

I am going to cross out what Daniels has said about this particular "relative" scale and write "parallel" instead. Yes, I know how actual relative scales work. Stupid book mystery solved!

[Eddie]

I am going to cross out what Daniels has said about this particular "relative" scale and write "parallel" instead. Yes, I know how actual relative scales work. Stupid book mystery solved!

 

Cross out what he said about the Blues scale

Check out pages 91-93 of Latarski's book for some insight into the Blues scale:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ayW6dm6FReUC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=blues+scales+latarski&source=bl&ots=XpjG-CgRRY&sig=XWOV_Qr6m3Eb-ysBLwdV4G3Zv-Y&hl=en&ei=dZYsTaSQGo7ksQOW4JiRBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=blues%20scale&f=false

Unfortunately page 90 is missing from the preview. It addresses some of what has been recently said (e.g., harmonization, use your ears, play over a chord progression, etc.)

 

And keep in mind that parallel scales are just different scales start on the same root. For example, G minor and G Major.

[polishpaul]

A ton of great advice coming in......thanks!

 

I asked an "angled" question a little earlier:

 

"So, to hopefully and correctly paraphrase............

 

In a major blues, you're pretty well tied to the minor pentatonic over everything, except for "special effect" notes (edit: from the blues scale or major pentatonic).

 

Outside of blues, you can use each chord's individual pentatonic scale, be it major or minor."

 

.....after reading Benzem's "ding ding :idea:" post, I expected to be told (again) that using individual pentatonic scales is the same as using the key's major scale (as pointed out by Benzem), because every individual pentatonic scale in the key comes from that scale, ie they all use the same notes. I'm just making sure I'm on the right track at this point.

 

But......

 

Outside of the blues style, if you used each non-major chord's individual natural minor scale (that from its 'home key eg Dm using the F major scale)..............then you would be bringing in other notes, alien to the key's major scale.......but not everything would 'work', ie sound okay to most people.

 

And if you used the major key's scale notes to play minor scales over minor chords, that would be modal.

 

Hoping this makes sense. I have an "almost there" feeling. I'm not sure, though, why one would use natural minor scales from another key.........

 

Is all this about right?