Best practice method for improving phrasing for improv?

[Tommy Gun]

Over the past year my knowledge of theory and the fretboard has improved a lot. I can now play in all keys all over the fretboard with no difficulty. The problem is it's all boring crap:mad:

 

So for example I will pull up a backing track in A dorian from youtube and wank away at it. I'm playing all the "right, in-scale" notes but it's just random noodling. I thought this would get better with practice but it's really not. There must be a more focused practice routine and exercise to improve that ability.

 

Any recommendations on specific way/methods/exercises to get some decent phrasing ability??

[mosiddiqi]

This was a lesson I posted over at Marks site that might help you:

 

Following on from the Chord Tone Solo lesson, I'd like to show you something completely different. Whilst focusing on chord tones is a great way to break out of pattern/scale based playing, another way you should consider is to listen to the music in your head.

 

I guarantee that if you listen close enough, you will hear phrases and melodies in your head that might not occur to you at all when you pick up a guitar and focus on the instrument, as all your attention is now on "Am in in tune?...What do I play next?...where do my fingers go?..what notes will sound right?..damn!..where's that cool lick I learned?!"..that kind of thing. At this stage, you're not listening.

 

For the purposes of this lesson, I created a backing track, just 1.30 long. Just a simple funk groove with a little Emin6 riff. Here it is:

 

http://www.box.net/shared/fv7j8z3ya4

 

Now, here's what I'd like you to try, set up your recording gear so you're ready to go, guitar in hand, but other than being in tune, I don't want you to pay much attention to the instrument itself.

 

1) Listen to the track. Do NOT play!

 

2) Listen again. Can you hear something in your head that might fit?. Play it!..hit record and just go for it!..this is practice, you can screw up as much as you like!.

 

3) Stop and listen back to what you did. Chances are, it won't be exactly what you heard in your head, unless you're blessed with terrific brain/ear/hand co-ordination..but it doesn't matter..you'll get better at this. The key thing is to try and replicate what you're hearing.

 

4) Get ready to record again, this time when you hear back the phrase you played, what does it make you want to play next? Play it!..hint: try and play the same thing again!..repetition is a HUGE part of improvisation. Now, the chances are, when you try and replicate what you just played, you may not get it exactly the same..and that opens up another door.

 

Each idea you get down, leads you to another one, you just have to LISTEN and trust yourself. This is a big thing. We get bogged down in theory and technique, but the music comes from inside you. Trust yourself...you'll get it wrong many, many times, but practice, practice, practice..and you might get a good take down now and then. And, then, it's worth the work.

 

In the interests of full disclosure, this is me practising over the above track. It's full of mistakes, but you'll also hear repetition, me struggling to get an idea I can't quite execute out, so the timing falls apart, and also one or two nice enough phrases that might lead to something at some point. Which is the goal of the exercise.

 

Those cool phrases make their way into my vocabulary and will hopefully become part of the music I hear in my head in order to be recycled in some other jam or song.

 

I'm not thinking about scales or chord tones, I'm just trying to listen to what my head and instincts are telling me. Interestingly, as a side note, listening back I noticed that I stick almost exclusively to the E Dorian mode..which makes sense, but I wasn't thinking "Right, got to play E Dorian here"..that just happened to be what I heard.

 

http://www.box.net/shared/mb8rgu2ja3

 

A common problem is where you can't hear anything in your head. This is where you need to be patient and be aware that maybe the track isn't what you enjoy and so doesn't give you any ideas..find something you do like and I promise you will hear ideas that might work!

 

Hope this is useful for you guys and maybe gives you some ideas you hadn't considered before.

[jeremy_green]

Great post Mo! Yes man. I agree with that approach fully.

 

A quote that changed the way I practice noodling came from Joe Pass. It was from a long time ago so this is complete paraphrasing but the gist was:

 

"Every single thing you play, you should be able to play a second time EXACTLY the way it was the first. If you can't, then it is just random finger movements that happened to work out. If you can't repeat it, it didn't come from your heart and it is not music."

 

This is VERY true IMO. Try practicing like that. What happens is it FORCES you to really listen to what you are doing, because you have to play it again. Also repetition instantly sounds like music. Listen to most great soloists and they use repetition a TON. Even if the notes aren't the same the rhythm is. Or if the rhythm isn't then the notes are. Repetition is one of the core building blocks you need to construct meaningful solos.

 

Also record EVERYTHING and listen back with a critical ear. This is the only chance you have to hear you the way others do.

 

Another thing, is simplify for a bit. Grab a small idea and really milk it. Save the shred for flourishes that tie ideas together. Fast stuff really doesn't say much.. it really mostly creates intensity. Would you want to hear someone in an intense state all the time? Likely not, plus the melodic stuff makes the flourishes SEEM faster. Not ripping on shred at all or insinuating you are doing this, just saying in general mix it up. The best shredders do this.

 

Lastly, learn other players solos - NOTE FOR NOTE. Don't cheat or fudge, get in there are get every note. Then get the chord changes behind. Then analyze what is going on. Do this all the time and before long you will see patterns or approaches that just work. I can't understate this. You want to become a good soloist? Become a student of solos. Many genres - even ones you don't like. Learn your favs... then learn your favs favs. Jazz, Country, Blues, Rock solo and analyze. Spend a year doing this and you will be a different player on the other side no doubt about it.

[Tommy Gun]

Great thanks for the tip guys. I figure I'll start really taking time with the backing tracks and trying to compose my lines instead of just randomly spitting them out

[BydoEmpire]

A good practice tip I learned was to pick a few specific notes on the fretboard - let's say four (though you could do this with three or five or even two), then solo using ONLY those four notes in those specific positions. The goal is to find as many ways as you can to make a very limited set of notes sound interesting. Bend in and out of them, change the rhythm (a million variations right there), create phrases, vary your dynamics. Can you play those four notes angry as hell? Can you play them smooth and mellow? Because you're dealing with a very limited set of notes, you can focus on the phrasing, articulation, dynamics and all the other stuff that makes music cool besides the notes. If you can make four notes sound interesting for two minutes, you can darn sure make a cool solo when the whole fretboard is available.

 

Another tip: hold your breath and play. Whenever you have to exhale and take another breath, pause and DON'T PLAY while you're breathing. Think like a sax player. It will force you to add space, which is a problem I often have when I lapse into noodling.

[3shiftgtr]

Great stuff as usual from the fellers.

 

Here's a little gem given to me long ago:

"When you sing everything you play, your life will change."

 

Play a phrase in your head, then sing it. Then play it. Or play a phrase AS you are singing it (scatting).

 

And yes, it changed my life, but I am still waiting for Katherine Heigl to show up for dinner.....

[Tommy Gun]

 

Great stuff as usual from the fellers. Here's a little gem given to me long ago: "When you sing everything you play, your life will change." Play a phrase in your head, then sing it. Then play it. Or play a phrase AS you are singing it (scatting). And yes, it changed my life, but I am still waiting for Katherine Heigl to show up for dinner.....

 

 

I watched Steve Vai's big free online lesson a few months ago and that was an exercise he did. I was amazed to see someone be able to sing every note while playing. I would love to have that skill.

All of these are definitely good tips that I'm going to incorporate into my routine

[JonR]

A quote that changed the way I practice noodling came from Joe Pass. It was from a long time ago so this is complete paraphrasing but the gist was: "Every single thing you play, you should be able to play a second time EXACTLY the way it was the first. If you can't, then it is just random finger movements that happened to work out. If you can't repeat it, it didn't come from your heart and it is not music."

Oh dear. I wonder what poor old B B King would have to say to that. Check this out, from 0:35:

 

(His embarrassment suggests he would agree in principle with Joe Pass.)

[JonR]

Over the past year my knowledge of theory and the fretboard has improved a lot. I can now play in all keys all over the fretboard with no difficulty. The problem is it's all boring crap:mad: So for example I will pull up a backing track in A dorian from youtube and wank away at it. I'm playing all the "right, in-scale" notes but it's just random noodling. I thought this would get better with practice but it's really not. There must be a more focused practice routine and exercise to improve that ability. Any recommendations on specific way/methods/exercises to get some decent phrasing ability??

Good advice above, but one simple tactic is to imagine a verbal phrase. Could be anything, but ideally fairly short - something you could say in one breath.

Then try and play the words on your guitar. They may not have a clear melodic shape, but they will have a rhythm, with accents and long and short syllables. Exaggerate or simpilfy that rhythm to make it more musical.

As BydoEmpire says, limit your note choices - don't think about a whole scale, pick maybe 3 or 4 notes (5 maximum) out of it, and use those to play the phrase. (And there's nothing wrong with a solo phrase that only uses one note, if the rhythm is interesting.)

If the song has lyrics, then that's an obvious source of phrases you could think about, but of course you don't have to play them with the same tune. But you can also just make up nonsense phrases (no one's hearing the words in your head!) - although it will make for a better solo if you can think of ideas that mean something to you. Eg "I could use a long cool beer right now...":)

[JonnyPac]

Good advice, all y'all.

 

Each style of soloing has important things to consider. Some styles have relatively short vocal-like "soul" phrases, some are endless action-packed speed-metal runs, and others fall in between. One of my huge favorites is Charlie Parker. He played long lines with each breath that were heavy on the swung 8ths and typified bebop lines from note choice to phrases. He also paused in natural ways and let the next line come in perfectly without having musical diarrhea. I used to drive around scatting lines with my voice while blasting a tape of "The Charlie Parker Jam Session"; mostly mimicking his rhythmic phrases figuring I could fill them with any notes that I chose over the given changes.

 

Imitate your favorites, breathe, and don't let the metal-head shredder kids at guitar center fool you that space is a bad thing. I have to relax into my own pace of line without caring about impressing people in order to play well. Music is an art, not a party-trick, IMHO.

 

Best wishes!

[jonPhillips]

 

This was a lesson I posted over at Marks site that might help you... ...Hope this is useful for you guys and maybe gives you some ideas you hadn't considered before.

 

 

Fantastic post

[jeremy_green]

 

Oh dear. I wonder what poor old B B King would have to say to that. Check this out, from 0:35: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVe24YFGoiM (His embarrassment suggests he would agree in principle with Joe Pass.)

 

 

LOL! Nice.

BB is certainly listening which I think was the essence of Joe's quote. Least the way I took it, Joe's beef was with guys just wanking out on geometric shapes, with little thought for the actual music. This can be heard in music stores across the world!

[JonR]

LOL! Nice. BB is certainly listening which I think was the essence of Joe's quote. Least the way I took it, Joe's beef was with guys just wanking out on geometric shapes, with little thought for the actual music. This can be heard in music stores across the world!

Right.
I think the B B King clip is revealing, actually. Of course one would never accuse B B of wanking, or not playing from the heart. At the same time (I would imagine), he's not so senile that he forgets what he just said or did in other contexts. Yet he can't recreate the line he just played moments ago. Instead he plays a quite different phrase, still demonstrating the principle they're discussing.
It's like he's in a different zone when he plays - paying a different kind of attention than one needs to when conversing or keeping track of facts. He's asked to repeat his phrase and it's like he's been woken from some other place - or as if someone has just changed the subject in a conversation and is no longer discussing what he thought they were discussing, or some other agenda has been revealed.
This implies to me that note-for-note accuracy is not what matters; what matters is the overview, the approach, understanding and attitude. It's a little similar to speaking, in that we may not remember word for word what we actually said at some time in the recent past, but we can remember what we meant to say. What we mean to say can usually be phrased in a few different ways. If someone is not quite getting what we mean, we often try several different ways one after the other. It's as if B B thought he was in a friendly conversation, and now finds himself confronted by an attorney in a court of law.

I think B B's playing (and perhaps most improvisation) is like vague, friendly conversation. You know what you mean; you understand the topic, and you know the kind of thing you want to say (play). That thought may not be composed of a precise series of notes - it might just be a vague shape. It will probably include some significant notes - such as chord tones or extensions - that you aim for (and get), but passing notes can vary; they're not essential to the basic idea. There is more than one route to the destination.

This reminds me of Miles's famous quote: "I'll play it first and tell you what it is later". That might not just be a comment about theorising (that we don't need to do that while playing), but it could mean he doesn't actually know what he's going to play - until he's played it. Other sayings of his support that notion: that one should not think too much beforehand, and just play something, anything; when you hear what you did, you'll be able to think of something else. One should always aim to surprise oneself. (I have no problem doing that - it never comes out quite the way I plan it. - which is how I like it. I would get very bored if I always played exactly what was in my head.)

Of course, this doesn't imply that we can just make up any old stuff. The "understanding of the topic" is what matters. It's like giving an impromptu speech on a given theme. If you know the theme well (and have plenty of personal opinions on it), you don't need any prepared notes. But there's a clear difference between that and someone who tries it without knowing enough about the subject beforehand: they'll dry up, or ramble aimlessly; they'll make mistakes; they'll go off topic; if challenged they'll have no sensible response.
IOW, there's no substitute for knowing both your instrument and the music thoroughly. And the kind of disciplined practice suggested above is a way towards that. You have to acquire the vocabulary somehow.

[3shiftgtr]

And B. ain't known for his teaching chops......

 

And Mimi Fox said ol' Joe was a tough teacher......Legend has it she took a few lessons with him, then came back a year or two later, played for him, and he said "Great. Now you can play jazz. Now what are you going to do?"

[Tubefox]

I worked mine out by noodling, both over backing tracks and just screwing around until something found good.

 

Might not work for everybody, though.

[1001gear]

BB say, "Dumbassk me to do it again."

I think it's all about the moment and where he's at in the whale song. I developed my bluesing by getting black. Lame black, but sall I gots. Expressing, interpreting - to me it's all about role playing. You gotta learn and develop that character - that great musician - or whatever drives you on.

Phrasing, the notes, your vocabulary, the very craft you come up with - is all a distillation of the music you know and the performer you become.

[JonnyPac]

 

"Every single thing you play, you should be able to play a second time EXACTLY the way it was the first. If you can't, then it is just random finger movements that happened to work out. If you can't repeat it, it didn't come from your heart and it is not music."

 

 

I read this and it bugged me somehow... Here's why: If I play a long line (several measures) and then try to recall it, I will likely fail. What I will play in it's place is something very similar with 100% as much logic as the first. Think about language- can you recall a sentence from two minutes ago word for word? Probably not, you will recall the meaning and perhaps the inflection, etc. "He passed away about a week back" or "About a week ago he kicked the bucket"... you dig?

[Gaetano Paul]

Great thread, my motivation for musical growth just got refreshed! Something special about this Lesson Loft! I need to hang in the loft more............

[jeremy_green]

 

I read this and it bugged me somehow... Here's why: If I play a long line (several measures) and then try to recall it, I will likely fail. What I will play in it's place is something very similar with 100% as much logic as the first. Think about language- can you recall a sentence from two minutes ago word for word? Probably not, you will recall the meaning and perhaps the inflection, etc. "He passed away about a week back" or "About a week ago he kicked the bucket"... you dig?

 

 

I think the point that Joe was making was more about listening intently. As opposed to the pattern style finger patterns you hear guys playing in every music store. IMO you should be able to play a line that has 80% (to pick a random number) of the notes and inflections ... maybe not perfect and i would say it fits that statement as well. The way I took it, and use it, was that - listen and don't get into random finger/shape crap.

[gennation]

For improv I lean more towards finding something I normally DON'T play normally or wouldn't play twice. I don't consider playing pre-worked or comfortable stuff improv, I save that for straight jamming where the band isn't improvising...in turn neither am I, I'm just jamming along. For me improv isn't rehash. It's stepping out of all that and bringing it totally off the cuff.

 

For my improv routine I practicing the freedom of improvisation. IOW, I do my best to NOT play stuff I've played before and think of it more as true improvisation when it's time to really improv and letting the freedom drive it's own direction. Doing this in a particular style is the difficult part but that's why I practice that freedom and try and get into a lot of improvisational gigs...working in a improv group is the coolest thing I get to do, when we improv off each other and it's like taking a trip in a car with 5-6 roads that all lead to the same place, but you can drive on all 5-6 roads simultaneously!

[jeremy_green]

 

For improv I lean more towards finding something I normally DON'T play normally or wouldn't play twice. I don't consider playing pre-worked or comfortable stuff improv, I save that for straight jamming where the band isn't improvising...in turn neither am I, I'm just jamming along. For me improv isn't rehash. It's stepping out of all that and bringing it totally off the cuff. For my improv routine I practicing the freedom of improvisation. IOW, I do my best to NOT play stuff I've played before and think of it more as true improvisation when it's time to really improv and letting the freedom drive it's own direction. Doing this in a particular style is the difficult part but that's why I practice that freedom and try and get into a lot of improvisational gigs...working in a improv group is the coolest thing I get to do, when we improv off each other and it's like taking a trip in a car with 5-6 roads that all lead to the same place, but you can drive on all 5-6 roads simultaneously!

 

 

I agree, you should be totally free when doing improvs. I also agree that you should always look for things you haven't played. I don't know that anyone said you should play something twice... or not play anything new. Just be listening intently so that you can play even these new lines again. It's an interesting way to practice, try it. Play ANYTHING and play free but see if you can pull the same line on the fly. I find when I am really in the zone I can do it... when i start over-thinking it I am screwed.

[oldschoolshred]

"Every single thing you play, you should be able to play a second time EXACTLY the way it was the first. If you can't, then it is just random finger movements that happened to work out. If you can't repeat it, it didn't come from your heart and it is not music."

 

 

There's some really good advice on this threat, yours included, that I plan on using myself. But I don't agree you should be able to replicate everything you play. Doesn't that contradict the idea of improvization in the first place? The spontaneity would be gone. Sometimes one is just more inspired than others and great things happen. I do agree noe should focus on hearing the music in their head and replicate that instead of just moving fingers. I plan on doing this a lot.

[jeremy_green]

Don't get me wrong, this was Joe Pass' words not mine ... I'd say the man knew some stuff : )

 

I brought that quote up because it really helped me. Something I took from it, it may affect others differently, or not at all. FOR ME, this was one of those "eurekas" that changed how I improvise. I was more of a pattern thinker before and in the years since it made me THINK about ALL the phrases - that was HUGE. So I don't expect everyone to agree... but it certainly should be food for thought. As I said, try doing it. Record yourself trying and hear how once you get comfortable with it, it instantly can help your solos be more musical. Instead of the usual string of shred or tired old licks.

[JonR]

I thought I'd add another thought: really try hard to play LESS. I know it's an old cliche: "less is more" (and some people who can't play very well use it as an excuse ) - but it's really helpful to think like that., especially if - like the OP (and I guess most of us at times) - you find yourself just playing meaningless stuff out of habit.

There's a Sai Baba quote that's relevant here:
"Before you speak, ask yourself, is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence?"

- the last phrase being the crucial one. Listen before you play: do you really have anything to add that will improve the music? You don't HAVE to play anything at all, not if the band is sounding good.
If there's some tempting space there - or if everyone is clearly waiting for you - go ahead. But think about that first note you were going to play: "is it necessary, is it true?"
Remember that fewer notes means more suspense. If you leave gaps, silences where notes might have been expected, listeners try to fill in the gaps themselves, imagining what you might have played - or be about to play. You can tease them. That can really draw an audience in, create excitement.

(Who's the more attractive person: the one who talks all the time, or the mysterious one who just occasionally utters a short but perfectly phrased comment? Which is the sexier one? Which is the one who sounds like they really know what's going on?)

[JonnyPac]

I thought I'd add another thought: really try hard to play LESS. I know it's an old cliche: "less is more" (and some people who can't play very well use it as an excuse ) - but it's really helpful to think like that., especially if - like the OP (and I guess most of us at times) - you find yourself just playing meaningless stuff out of habit. There's a Sai Baba quote that's relevant here: "Before you speak, ask yourself, is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence?" - the last phrase being the crucial one. Listen before you play: do you really have anything to add that will improve the music? You don't HAVE to play anything at all, not if the band is sounding good. If there's some tempting space there - or if everyone is clearly waiting for you - go ahead. But think about that first note you were going to play: "is it necessary, is it true?" Remember that fewer notes means more suspense. If you leave gaps, silences where notes might have been expected, listeners try to fill in the gaps themselves, imagining what you might have played - or be about to play. You can tease them. That can really draw an audience in, create excitement. (Who's the more attractive person: the one who talks all the time, or the mysterious one who just occasionally utters a short but perfectly phrased comment? Which is the sexier one? Which is the one who sounds like they really know what's going on?)

 

Love it. Great post.