Lessons = Wasted Money

Longhair · August 11, 2012

I have felt that I have gotten nowhere with trying to teach myself guitar, so I decided to start taking lessons.

$200 & 2 different teachers later, the only thing I learned was not to waste money on lessons ever again. When I say teacher, I'm not talking about giving some kid half my age who rents a room at the local music shop but grown adults who are registered as a business and charge tax on top of their hourly rates.

First teacher's approach was learn by playing songs. I already knew the open chords for the song they just taught me the order and strumming pattern. By the third lesson I was ready to move onto something else. After the sixth lesson and going over the same exact thing I was shown in the first lesson, I knew I needed a new teacher.

I wrote down what I knew, what I wanted to know, my long term goals and most importantly the weaknesses that I knew were holding me back from progressing.

This didn't seem to be a problem for the new teacher that I lined up. The first lesson went alright and I was given some material to to go over for the following lesson. I was struggling with some stuff that wasn't a problem during the lesson so I sent an email with my concerns. Standard canned reply of "relax, play slow, practice makes perfect".

Time comes for the second lesson, the teacher doesn't seem very interested in how I was getting along with the material instead tells me that I should just quit trying to learn the guitar.

scolfax · August 11, 2012

Personally I think a guitar teachers job is to get you self-sufficient so that you won't need them anymore.

You don't need a teacher to learn songs or teach theory, that can all be had online and in books if not free then for very cheap.

You do need a teacher to help you improve with your specific technique. Also to point out where the theory and songs meet when it's not obvious.

Personally I've realized that I could have got way more from my lessons, from books, online, and in person, if I had just taken the time to really memorize the fretboard first many many years ago. So I've been working on that. No teacher needed.

Jed · August 11, 2012

I wrote down what I knew, what I wanted to know, my long term goals and most importantly the weaknesses that I knew were holding me back from progressing.

Well it sounds like you've found the perfect place.

We'd be happy to throw a couple of dozen ideas / opinions your way for free !

So what is it you know and want to know. What are your long term goals and what are the weakness you feel are holding you back ?

We can't do any worse than your recent experience with those teachers.

Jed · August 11, 2012

Personally I think a guitar teachers job is to get you self-sufficient so that you won't need them anymore.

You don't need a teacher to learn songs or teach theory, that can all be had online and in books if not free then for very cheap.

You do need a teacher to help you improve with your specific technique. Also to point out where the theory and songs meet when it's not obvious.

Personally I've realized that I could have got way more from my lessons, from books, online, and in person, if I had just taken the time to really memorize the fretboard first many many years ago. So I've been working on that. No teacher needed.

Ding, Ding, Ding !!

We have a winner ! Give the man a cigar !

** especially the part about learning the fretboard. It's kind of hard to learn to play music if you don't know where the notes are.

Most of what most people need to learn has little to do with teachers but lot to do with spending time learning what they should already know and then going out to the wood shed to get it all under their fingers.

PhilGould · August 11, 2012

Speaking as someone who currently teaches, I would say that whilst you might not have seen the benefits of lessons, it would be wrong to make a broad claim that lessons in general are a waste of time.

Yes, you can learn from books and without ever taking a lesson, but you will certainly learn a LOT faster with the right teacher. Teachers can show you all the correct technique and practices to help you develop the right playing technique quickly and with a lot less pain and frustration that learning alone may give, but also putting all these different aspects into an actual song.

It sounds like the teachers the OP had didn't give enough support to ensure that he progressed from things he already knew to things he didn't, but also ensuring that anything played or practiced at home actually added to something in class. I would never give a homework practice exercise to any pupil of mine unless it was relevant to something we were doing in class, and that we had time to revise and discuss what the pupil was learning.

Pitar · August 12, 2012

Teachers are great sources of guilt-motivation. You pay for their scrutiny, they give it, you try to measure up to it, etc, etc. The whole of it is a contracted discipline to maintain a regimen of practice. The consequence is the usual brow beating with a possible tongue lashing for falling off the wagon.

A teacher can't teach you anything. He or she can only guide you to what you have to teach yourself and even then it's a subjectively assembled guided tour.

Teachers don't know anything about you in the beginning. The idea is to describe who you are and where you want to go. If they don't subscribe to your taste in music then you can expect a less than stellar experience. No one wants to subject themselves to some odious task and certain music is a real put off for some people. Yes, they are getting paid to put aside their preferences but it doesn't mean it will be easy for them.

A good teacher will work to know you, your expectations, learning curve and musical preferences. He will then work to satisfy that information through an appropriately assembled syllabus. I doubt much of that actually transpires between contracted music teachers and their students. So, "good" and "teacher" are probably mutually separable for the most part. I've never known a good teacher in my 57 years of life lessons.

I taught myself to play. I've also shown quite a few people how I play. That's not teaching. That's illustrating at best. I can't do anything more than that. The observer alone must decide if examples of my motor skills interest them enough to give rise to sufficient desire to train and learn them. There's no teaching in this context.

In my case...

Did I know that I needed to learn to sight read musical scores, learn the notes on the fretboard, understand scales and discipline myself to the brain and hand work necessary to becoming a musician? Of course I did.

Did I teach myself all of it? No.

Did I need a teacher to tell me I needed all that? No.

Did I need a teacher to tell me I needed to train my hands to shape the chords? No.

Did I need a teacher to tell me how to train my hands to shape the chords? No. Books abound on the subject.

Did I need a teacher to tell me my own motivation, discipline and work ethic were lackluster? No.

Did I need a teacher to tell me how to fingerpick patterns published in available books? No. The books themselves illustrated that.

Did I need a teacher to train me how to sight read music? No. The material I had at the time was adequate to self-study.

So, paying a person to guide me through all of the above wasn't a necessity. It comes down to personal desire, motivation and discipline. One more word is also essential to becoming the best at anything and that is passion. If you don't have that, forget it. You will be a casual learner at best with well rehearsed excuses when describing your skills.

mosiddiqi · August 12, 2012

It comes down to personal desire, motivation and discipline. One more word is also essential to becoming the best at anything and that is

passion

. If you don't have that, forget it. You will be a casual learner at best with well rehearsed excuses when describing your skills.

I agree with this completely. You don't play guitar because you want to play. You play it because you HAVE to play. Then, it's just a matter of time. Whatever level you get to is up to you and will be driven by many different things in your life. But, if you don't have that over-riding passion to play..you're starting with a big handicap. The amount of people I know who bought guitars because they thought it "would be cool to play" and have picked them up for no longer than a few minutes before deciding it was too much work.

Also, what Jed said. ..share with us what you wrote down about your goals and people here may be able to help!.

guitarville · August 12, 2012

A teacher can't teach you anything. He or she can only guide you to what you have to teach yourself and even then it's a subjectively assembled guided tour.

Sounds like you have what it takes to learn how to play music on the guitar. A lesson or two from some of the more experience people here would benefit you most until you find your "path". I'm sure here on the forum there's got to be someone you can click with then. I know from my own experience here. One you may click with, others you may find they are not what you are looking for.

I don't know if mosiddiqi teaches but he sure seems to have a pleasant approach on his post here

Longhair · August 12, 2012

There is too much information out there and a lot of it is either geared up for the absolute "I've never even seen a guitar" beginner or for the person who already knows how to play guitar at an advanced level. I have both kinds of books collecting dust on my bookshelf. I've spent countless hours sitting through awful YouTube videos. Sure there are some good tutorials out there but once again, those are geared towards the people who already know how to play guitar...

I decided to take lessons for 2 reasons:

guitarville · August 12, 2012

There is too much information out there and a lot of it is either geared up for the absolute "I've never even seen a guitar" beginner or for the person who already knows how to play guitar at an advanced level. I have both kinds of books collecting dust on my bookshelf. I've spent countless hours sitting through awful YouTube videos. Sure there are some good tutorials out there but once again, those are geared towards the people who already know how to play guitar...

I decided to take lessons for 2 reasons:

Bridge the gap between absolute beginner & someone who knows how to play guitar at an advanced level - How do I know if I am spending enough or too much time on something?
Answer questions about proper technique - Sure I can duplicate how someone is holding a pick from a picture or a video but why does it feel so unnatural to the point I can't do anything when I move my hand from the example position to the guitar?

If I would have known that paying for lessons would have driven me away from music, I wouldn't have signed up in the first place.

As far as my long term goals & weaknesses go, at this moment I don't have any because that is how crushing this whole experience has been for me. I'll probably end up packing everything up, throwing it in storage and then in a few years when everything I once knew is long forgotten, I will just sell it off for a huge loss

with 1400 post here, I say you won't pack it up in storage

NewGuyonGuitar · August 12, 2012

Don't give up.

Never surrender.

scolfax · August 12, 2012

If I would have known that paying for lessons would have driven me away from music, I wouldn't have signed up in the first place.

The best guitar lesson I ever got wasn't a guitar lesson. It's a program called BandWorks in the SF Bay Area that sets you up with a band for 2 months. You rehearse a handful of songs and put on a show with the other bands at the end of the session. Felt more about music than guitar if that makes any sense.

mosiddiqi · August 12, 2012

There is too much information out there and a lot of it is either geared up for the absolute "I've never even seen a guitar" beginner or for the person who already knows how to play guitar at an advanced level. I have both kinds of books collecting dust on my bookshelf. I've spent countless hours sitting through awful YouTube videos. Sure there are some good tutorials out there but once again, those are geared towards the people who already know how to play guitar...

I decided to take lessons for 2 reasons:

Bridge the gap between absolute beginner & someone who knows how to play guitar at an advanced level - How do I know if I am spending enough or too much time on something?
Answer questions about proper technique - Sure I can duplicate how someone is holding a pick from a picture or a video but why does it feel so unnatural to the point I can't do anything when I move my hand from the example position to the guitar?

If I would have known that paying for lessons would have driven me away from music, I wouldn't have signed up in the first place.

As far as my long term goals & weaknesses go, at this moment I don't have any because that is how crushing this whole experience has been for me. I'll probably end up packing everything up, throwing it in storage and then in a few years when everything I once knew is long forgotten, I will just sell it off for a huge loss

Ok, some of the proper teachers here may disagree with me, but here goes. Stop taking lessons.

My answers to your two questions would be:

1) There is no such thing as spending too much time on ANY aspect of guitar if it interests you and you can't put the guitar down..this is a good thing!!!! I know I've spent too much time on something when my vision blurs and my fingers feel like they're bleeding.

2) There is no such thing as "proper" technique particularly if your genre is not classical. "Proper" technique is what works for you, try EVERYTHING!.

On the wider issue, let me ask you, why do you play guitar?. I'm hoping it's because you love music and you're fascinated by the sounds your favourite guitar players make, and you want (actually, not "want" but "have to know") how to make those sounds.

You already have the best tools available, your passion for the music you like and your ears!. Use 'em!. A good teacher will certainly be able to help you at different stages of your playing, but right now it sounds to me like you need to rediscover your love for music and for playing. So, forget about technique, theory etc...learn how to play your favourite songs/solo's. Do it by ear!..YES YOU CAN!. Get "Transcribe!" (the best $ you will EVER spend on learning guitar) and get to work!.

Yer Blues · August 12, 2012

I started as a kid and found some guy who gave lessons in a local music shop. My experience was completely different than yours. Sometimes things happen in life that are just meant to happen..... this was it for me. I couldn't play a lick and had no musical background. He taught me a lot of basics, but was also an actual person I could ask specific questions to and get an explanation. It was right around the time the Internet started to take off, but before youtube.

Most importantly, he taught me how to teach myself.... give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

JonR · August 12, 2012

There is too much information out there and a lot of it is either geared up for the absolute "I've never even seen a guitar" beginner or for the person who already knows how to play guitar at an advanced level. I have both kinds of books collecting dust on my bookshelf. I've spent countless hours sitting through awful YouTube videos. Sure there are some good tutorials out there but once again, those are geared towards the people who already know how to play guitar...

I decided to take lessons for 2 reasons:

Bridge the gap between absolute beginner & someone who knows how to play guitar at an advanced level - How do I know if I am spending enough or too much time on something?
Answer questions about proper technique - Sure I can duplicate how someone is holding a pick from a picture or a video but why does it feel so unnatural to the point I can't do anything when I move my hand from the example position to the guitar?

If I would have known that paying for lessons would have driven me away from music, I wouldn't have signed up in the first place.

As far as my long term goals & weaknesses go, at this moment I don't have any because that is how crushing this whole experience has been for me. I'll probably end up packing everything up, throwing it in storage and then in a few years when everything I once knew is long forgotten, I will just sell it off for a huge loss

Even though I am a "proper teacher", I agree with mo - stop taking lessons.

My answer to your first question - "How do I know if I am spending enough or too much time on something?" - is: if you get bored or it starts to hurt, you're spending too much time on it. As long as you're enjoying it (whatever it is) keep doing it. It might be only 2 minutes, it might be 30. As long as you're playing something, anything, you're improving.

It's true that - without a teacher - there's a danger of bad habits. Some basic techniques feel awkward to start with, and ways that feel more natural turn out to be wrong (such as holding the neck in your palm, the "baseball bat" grip).

IMO, if your position is good - angles of hands, wrists and arms - there's little danger of any serious bad habits developing. There are plenty of youtubes which will show you good positioning.

When it comes to pick grip, don't sweat it. Hold it any way you like. Experiment with different grips by all means, because different ones can suit different kinds of playing (lead lines? or chord strumming? or hybrid picking?). But just choose a comfortable one. (And experiment with different pick thicknesses too. Sometimes pick problems are just down to pick guage.)

In general, I suggest working from songs. Pick a song or tune you want to be able to play, and study it in as much detail as you can stand. Use any and every source of info, but always refer back to the audio. Respect nothing but the original recording (assuming there is one). Net tab is not often wrong (not as often as some people say), but it's always incomplete, and frequently confusing.

If that song turns out to be too complicated, pick a simpler one.

Don't study theory, unless you have a theoretical question (such as "what is this sound called?").

DON'T have long term goals. Have short term ones: things you think you can achieve by the end of one practice session. (And if you don't, don't despair; congratulate yourself on the stage you reached, and look forward to taking it further next time.)

The point is to enjoy it. If you're always thinking about the fact you're not as good as you want to be, you'll never be satisfied. Apologies in advance for the platitude, but it's about the journey not the destination. There IS no destination (other than death ); there is only the journey. So enjoy the scenery, wherever you are.

TieDyedDevil · August 13, 2012

Education is a process, not a product. Go into lessons with an understanding (and hopefully, agreement with your teacher) as to your current strengths and weaknesses and a prioritized list of what you'd like to improve about your knowledge and technique. If you arrive at your instructor's place of business and say nothing more than "teach me", you're likely to receive a canned series of lessons (which is, BTW, par for the course in the realm of classical music pedagogy for beginning and intermediate students).

I find it beneficial to take advantage of the resources available to me outside of lessons, then pay an instructor to help me understand and develop proper application of the techniques and theory I've studied on my own. Having to explain yourself and getting feedback from someone with more knowledge and experience can lead to some very productive "ah ha!" moments.

Also, to the OP: I I've read correctly, you spent $200 on a total of eight lessons. I'm guessing, based on what I've seen in my part of the world for tuition costs, that these were half-hour lessons. If you do go back for more lessons at some point, I highly recommend doing an hour at one sitting. I've done both half- and full-hour lessons; the longer sessions - for me, at least - led to more insights and better retention of the lessons' material.

Finally, record yourself and - after a day or so to place some emotional distance between the acts of creation and analysis - listen to your recordings. Friends and family (and sometimes, even teachers) will BS about "how good you are", but the recorder never lies. Take the opportunity to identify one or two things in each recording that need the most work, and focus on those.

DO NOT attempt to fix all of your flaws at once! Pick off the "low hanging fruit"; concentrate on the one or two things about your playing that will be the easiest for you to improve. You'll not only get more satisfaction from having made some progress, but will also have a more stable foundation on which to build as you deal with more difficult issues.

BydoEmpire · August 13, 2012

I hadn't taken lessons in a decade, but a couple years ago I went back for a couple months to a local guy (Berklee grad, good player) and it was really good. I didn't actually learn what I was expecting, but instead got a whole host of new ideas to play with. I had been wandering and drifting in my practice a bit and he gave me some some things to focus on.

When I took lessons in the past it was always for six months or so on, then some time off to really digest what I learned and work on applying it. That worked for me.

BydoEmpire · August 13, 2012

Standard canned reply of "relax, play slow, practice makes perfect".

Time comes for the second lesson, the teacher doesn't seem very interested in how I was getting along with the material instead tells me that I should just quit trying to learn the guitar.

Did he say "relax, play slow, practice makes perfect" or "quit trying to learn the guitar." If the former, I can understand that (although he could certainly have been more eloquent and helpful). If the latter, drop him like a bad habit.

jeremy_green · August 13, 2012

You don't need a teacher to learn songs

or teach theory

, that can all be had online and in books if not free then for very cheap.

I disagree with this a fair bit... a lot actually.

Here are the conditions where I feel one NEEDS a teacher... or at very least the presence of one can greatly affect the time it takes.

1. Anything that comes with a LOT of questions/confusion (i.e. theory)

Sure you can learn theory online - but it can take YEARS instead of months. I have said over and over here that this is the single best lesson you can ever take. Go to a piano teacher or some other instrument (really any accredited teacher can walk you through the levels)

2. When you have a technical issue(s) and need some technique adjustment.

3. When you are a person who needs to have someone you are accountable to. Some don't need this, others very much.

4. When you are a visual learner. NOTHING beats sitting in the room and watching someone play.

5. When you feel stuck in a rut and really need some new input to bust out of it.

I would recommend you go to some local shows and see some local players. When you see one that moves you ask him/her for a lesson. Stay with them until you find out their "stuff" then move on ... or stay whatever.

I will say this, one of my biggest regrets as a player was that i never was able to find my mentor... I never took lessons for very long but there is a HUGE value in the inspiration that can come from sitting with a great player. For example, during any lesson I get with Oz Noy, it is incredibly humbling and inspirational to be 'put in my place' so to speak. Also I can chat with him about little theories or observations I have. Nothing is better than having a great player CONFIRM something you always suspected.

Finding the RIGHT teacher is HARD... but imo it is worth every minute of the search. If I could do it all over again I would spend much more efforts in finding someone who simultaneously inspired, taught and pushed me... They are out there.

scolfax · August 13, 2012

1. Anything that comes with a LOT of questions/confusion (i.e. theory)

Sure you can learn theory online - but it can take YEARS instead of months. I have said over and over here that this is the single best lesson you can ever take. Go to a piano teacher or some other instrument (really any accredited teacher can walk you through the levels)

I guess this depends on how far you want/need to go, and the quality of the references you end up with.

I think we agree that everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and the right teacher is better than the right book or the right video for addressing weaknesses.

benzem · August 13, 2012