Live compression on keys?

[wheresgrant3]

We've recently purchased a dbx 166xl for use in our PA. We're a 5 piece rock cover band using a AH Mix Wiz 16:2 and Yorkville Elite EF & LP subs. The dbx is two channel and will handle the vocals and kick drum but there doesn't seem to be a way that we can utilize these for keys as well. I run my keys through a mini mixer to a DI and the problem is some patches (like piano, soft pads) are hard to hear in the mix while others like brass stabs and synth leads cut right through the mix... right to your ear drum. I'm considering a compressor solution just for my keys and don't know where to start. We don't have any more rack space left. Is there a stand alone solution I could use in between my DI and the main mixer?

[Sleepin' Deeper]

 

Originally posted by wheresgrant3 We've recently purchased a dbx 166xl for use in our PA. We're a 5 piece rock cover band using a AH Mix Wiz 16:2 and Yorkville Elite EF & LP subs. The dbx is two channel and will handle the vocals and kick drum but there doesn't seem to be a way that we can utilize these for keys as well. I run my keys through a mini mixer to a DI and the problem is some patches (like piano, soft pads) are hard to hear in the mix while others like brass stabs and synth leads cut right through the mix... right to your ear drum. I'm considering a compressor solution just for my keys and don't know where to start. We don't have any more rack space left. Is there a stand alone solution I could use in between my DI and the main mixer?

 

 

I'd recommend the Presonus gear...I use the COMP16 for Vocals and Bass Guitar and it works like a charm.

[wheresgrant3]

 

Originally posted by Sleepin' Deeper I'd recommend the Presonus gear...I use the COMP16 for Vocals and Bass Guitar and it works like a charm.

 

 

Are you using it live or in a studio? I want something that is not going to color the sound at all through the FOH.

[Gus Lozada]

I'd better do some pre-production work at home, balancing all of my synth's patches.

 

Given he circumstances you mention, compressing Piano and subtle patches to match brass and others levels, will rip the life out of any performance.

[Sleepin' Deeper]

Originally posted by wheresgrant3 Are you using it live or in a studio? I want something that is not going to color the sound at all through the FOH.

 

I'm using it in the studio through my A & H Mix Wizard 16:2, so essentially an identical signal path.

 

I'm not pro engineer enough to tell you whether it 'colors' the sound, but I'm musician enough to tell you the results, for the money, sound really good.

 

[MRkeys]

 

Originally posted by Gus Lozada I'd better do some pre-production work at home, balancing all of my synth's patches. Given he circumstances you mention, compressing Piano and subtle patches to match brass and others levels, will rip the life out of any performance.

 

 

 

 

+1.

 

Some sounds just stand out more than others, even with the same levels. Rebalance the presets or keep aware and adjust the volume as you go.

[rvandenbroeck]

 

Some sounds just stand out more than others, even with the same levels. Rebalance the presets or keep aware and adjust the volume as you go.

 

 

this is exactly what I do. I play with probably less than a dozen patches in the live setting and I know which are more prone to cut the mix than others. You really have to stay on top of it, tho, and adjust the volume pretty regularly when you change patches.

[Khazul]

Might be better just tweaking the patches to lessen the volume dynamics (so velocity near 0 is much louder, rather than bearly audiable), but keep the tonal variation. Personally I find the over-emphasised volume dynamic really annoying on most piano patches on romplers - never seems to have quite the right volume vs playing force.

 

For compressing a piano patch on a rompler, Ive found a TC Electronic Triple C nice for the job, it a 3 band multi-band compressor, so you can be quite agressive with the compression without tuning it into hard housey style, can also be used as single band if you do want a squashed punchy sound.

 

It is a digital compressor, but that means you can save patches and recall them instantly with MIDI control which could help in live use. Now discontinued, but come up on ebay at quite low prices.

[mrcpro]

Lots of good suggestions here. I'm primarily a live player, and since I also do most of the singing, I do a lot of work trying to get volume levels set so I don't have to keep adjusting them all the time. Here's how I do it:

 

1. Limit my sounds. I only use about 20 regularly.

 

2. Naturally compress by limiting velocity sensitivity. As Khazul pointed out, you don't need a wide range playig live, especially in a band.

 

3. Tame sounds with spikey attrack transients by adjusting their amplifier envelope. I know, this means knowing how to edit a little, but this is a simple one.

 

4. If it's a new sound, I'll get it "in the ballpark" at home, but set the final patch level live. This is because the horns on amps and PA stacks will grab certain frequencies and make them stick out beyond their actual level. And mellow sounds can get buried in the noise beyond what you might think if they're soloed. So you really have to set each sound's programmed level at the gig.

 

I've tried compressors, but found it frustrating for those times when you really want to highlight a part. You hit that brick wall.

[GigMan]

Originally posted by rvandenbroeck this is exactly what I do. I play with probably less than a dozen patches in the live setting and I know which are more prone to cut the mix than others. You really have to stay on top of it, tho, and adjust the volume pretty regularly when you change patches.

 

Yep - ride yer keyboards' volume sliders, that's my suggestion

[wheresgrant3]

Well.. that's what I do for just about every tune (agjusting the fader). I was just wondering whether there was a compression solution for manaing those high's and lows front of house.

 

And... let's be honest, reprogramming volume settings for patches may help a little, but when you are dealing with many synths and many patches there's very little you can accomplish in trying to balance a live mix. The output of a Trition is much different than a Roland XP30 or an Alesis Micron or a Emu PK6. What sounds great with headphones might not sound the same in a large room. Fader control saves alot of extra work. I was just wondering whether compression would make sense for a live mix.

[NuSkoolTone]

I've found the only way to get patch volumes in the ball park is to audition the patches at Stage volume. Headphones have such a different response and will never sound the same. Even THEN it's STILL ballpark and will require some fader action.

 

Compression? Yeah, I'll go against the grain here. I could see where it could help. I make the assumption you've ALREADY tried doing the whole patch matching thing, and it's still not getting the results you're after. Which sounds like "Set and forget", with an occasional tweak for a solo. For your Project Grant, I think this goal makes sense.

 

Also Personally, I would submix all the keyboards into a sub mixer and use the comp on the Main insert, or Before your Monitoring as well. This will give you more insight into what you sound like at FOH.

 

There are two ways you can go. A normal compresion curve, like 4:1 (Recommended) or Hard Limiting.

 

Regular Compression Will liken your patch volumes a little more and still have some give when you're pushing it.

 

Hard limiting is a set volume (8:1 and higher, sometimes 20:1 or infinity) and that's it. If Figure out you set it wrong in the middle of performance, dynamics wise you're kinda screwed til next break. Unless you just need to turn everything up, just turn up the "Make-up" gain or output.

 

The thing to remeber though is that some sounds have an ACTUAL volume, and a PERCIEVED volume. Some sounds just cut better but technically aren't louder. Some sounds are technically louder, but don't cut. The Compressor doesn't care and ALWAYS acts on teh "Technical" Volume. However if you get all your patch volumes lined up here as close as you can, this should minimize this issue. In the end it will probably take a few gigs to get it right.

 

Lastly, assuming you know how to set a compressor, I'd recommend the FMR Audio RNC (Really Nice Compressor). It's under $200 new, tiny at 1/3 a rack space(But has a wall wart), and it isn't even compared to compresors under $1000 typically. It's relatively uncolored, can be fairly transparent, or can be REALLY squashed. This is a compressor where you can actually TELL what it's doing unlike a LOT of low end comps. It doesn't have an "auto" mode so you'll have to learn it a little, including it's limitations. Some say it subdues low end a little, but I haven't found this to be a problem. Even so, in the band you're in the Bass and Kick Drum are competing for those freqs already! Likely you're low sub freqs aren't being heard anyway and if anything just add mud to the mix. However YMMV.

 

 

Best of luck, any further questions PM me.

 

-Wes

[wades_keys]

Great thread!

 

I'm having the same "issues" as well. I've spent HOURS using headphones, VU meters in SoundForge.

 

But then after practice I get the same crap from one of the nitpicky guitarists along the lines of "Some of your patches are so loud, why can't you just use 3 or 4 sounds like organ and piano?"

 

Well gee, maybe cuz we cover tunes that need more than those sounds? Intros like "Dead or Alive" or "Lunatic Fringe", etc...

 

The thing is I think it is more of a frequency/EQ thing. I do use a submixer and my vu's are within 1 led segment of each other at all times.

 

Then when you "ride the fader" the jerk thinks you're "cranking it up"

 

Actually the more I think about it I think this guitarist is having issues - no one else is bitching about it like he is.

[Khazul]

NuSkool - I know thats a good little comrpessor, great for studio use, but I wouldnt want to be manually fiddling with compressor settings over song transitions - hence suggestion for a digital compressor.

 

Also if you go multi-band then you gain some automated control of the peak or rms levels independently at different frequencies.

 

Other options that I heard people having for live use are these all-in-one maximizer type things - so long as it isnt one with huge through latency...

[Tusks]

 

Originally posted by mrcpro Lots of good suggestions here. I'm primarily a live player, and since I also do most of the singing, I do a lot of work trying to get volume levels set so I don't have to keep adjusting them all the time. Here's how I do it: 1. Limit my sounds. I only use about 20 regularly. 2. Naturally compress by limiting velocity sensitivity. As Khazul pointed out, you don't need a wide range playig live, especially in a band. 3. Tame sounds with spikey attrack transients by adjusting their amplifier envelope. I know, this means knowing how to edit a little, but this is a simple one. 4. If it's a new sound, I'll get it "in the ballpark" at home, but set the final patch level live. This is because the horns on amps and PA stacks will grab certain frequencies and make them stick out beyond their actual level. And mellow sounds can get buried in the noise beyond what you might think if they're soloed. So you really have to set each sound's programmed level at the gig. I've tried compressors, but found it frustrating for those times when you really want to highlight a part. You hit that brick wall.

 

 

+10

[wheresgrant3]

Thanks for the input. Many of the things discussed here I've already done or I'm willing to try. For the most part It looks like for now I'll keep riding the fader. Adjust volume input just seems like a tremendous amount of time with little. net. I have a good feel for where my volume levels should be. It's just funny how some patches can sound fine at stage volume, but seem blaring through the FOH... or not be heard at all. The most trouble I have resides in 3 or 4 patches out of nearly 30 that I use. The greates difference in sound incidently are between the different synths I use. The XP30 is the hardest to hear in the mix, as some patches are already a little too compressed sounding. The Micron is the opposite... it can be a complete buzz saw. I use a submixer to mix each synth at different levels and I use the LED monitor to gauge what the output is registering (if it spikes real high then I pull the volume down on that channel or on the board. I was just wondering whether a compressor would smooth things out. I wouldn't say it's a huge problem. Just certain song patches.

 

Thanks

[niacin]

If you have the chance, pick up the band PA early one afternoon and set it up at home, in a decent size room, and set your levels. Ditto at rehearsal. The PA will emphasize certain frequencies and provide certain sounds with the edge to cut through differently to the way your monitors or headphones will. Sure you might use a different PA each gig, but the difference between a 2-way Eon and a 2-way powered Mackie or EV is minimal compared to that between such speakers and your monitors or headphones. Use this as a start point and then tweak live and where you can get comments from folks in the audience whose ears you trust (can they hear the piano ok? did that synth lead rip their head off or did it get lost?). The problem with mixing onstage is that what you hear will unfortunately be different to what is out front. In the end you've got to learn to trust the sound guy more than yourself regarding how it sounds out there.

[DavidFisher]

I wouldn't be adverse to some light compression. An RNC would do the trick cheaply.

 

A few things. First of all, it's the role of the guy mixing to actually know your stuff, pay attention, and mix your keyboards well. I kept my Mackie LM324 within arm's reach to tweak sounds a bit if i could tell that things were coming out uneven (I had a better situation than most as I was using In-Ear's so I could tell what it actually sounded like a bit). I wouldn't just jack your overall volume up and down, or the soundguy will hate you.

 

If you have the stuff premixed well on your mixer (which can be done on a digital really well per song, as you can recall all your synth patches, levels, compression and eq settings really quick, and they normally have a few delays/reverbs in there too that are decent to use for live). then the sound guy shouldn't have too much trouble. If all of a sudden you totally disapear because you aren't premixed well, then that's a problem.

 

If you can send out multiple stems to the FOH, that's even better. I'd put percussion on one buss out, loops/pads on another, piano-like ones on another, and leads on another.

[Khazul]

Originally posted by wheresgrant3 I was just wondering whether a compressor would smooth things out. I wouldn't say it's a huge problem. Just certain song patches. Thanks

 

A bog standard compressor - uhm - probably just irratate you,though maybe ok on slow attack, slow release as an AGC.

 

If you are going to go for relatively transparent on stage compression - then suggest a digital (or present based) multi-band or maximizer type device.

 

If you go for an analog multi-band, then at least you can use it to keep your frequency spectrum use under control even if you dont get the convenience of per sound presets. A compressor isnt going to help if you run a rompler with all sounds on the same out pair and have a tendency to doing a pounding LH bass line with something delicate on the right hand...

 

No substitue for tuning your patches Im afraid - and that even means tuning them on a per song basis if need be.

 

Of course having a permenant sound man helps *hugely* - becomes his job to take care of many of these issues at the main desk, but is completely pointless with people wanting to using their own amps at small venes as you probably dont mic them, nor bother micing the drums either (the natral sound levels are too high compared to the pa level for it to be worth bothering) - though a passive soundman can sometimes help if he has a way of yelling f****** turn it down at the sound hog via earphones.

 

Often the only person with a clue about getting a balanced sound is the keyboard player - (such is the nature of keyboards...) and he aint going to hear it all either unless he way a way to get a good and complete stage mix - which will probably just distract if in that particular song the keys are supposed to be barely audiable...

 

Also if you get winged at by other band members - remember - they aint hearing what the audience hears - neither are you of course - but just because they winge it doesnt make them right - the only answer is to get an independent view from someone playing 'audience' at your rehersals - and that needs to be someone who knows your music and what to listen for - ie a soundman basically - better if he has some gear to record you all and let you hear the effects of retraint

[MarkShovel]

Consider investing in a stereo foot pedal volume control. It is very useful when you are using both hands. Maybe place it after your mixer to control the full keyboard mix relative to the band. Maybe use one on your lead synth.

 

Even playing distorted guitar with major compression from the amp's distortion, it's tough to match the dynamics of a drummer and bass player that don't have compression. I use a lead boost channel as well as a distorted rhythm channel. The clean channel is always difficult to control since it has very little natural compression compared to the distorted channels. It is amazing how pickup selection affects the frequency response and perceived volume in the mix. Even subtle tone control adjustment change how the guitar sits in the mix.

 

Always tweak your synth patches in the live band environment. I do a first cut at home and think the patch is great. Then, in the band context, there are issues that need to be addressed.

 

Some synths like the Fantom include a mastering compression that can help in a live band setting.

 

My older synths like my Juno-60 and JX-3P have had their volume pots replaced. I always had my left hand on the volume and right hand on the keys. Velocity sensing can replace that level of mix detail, but you need to keep the playing acting somewhere in the sweet spot.

[NuSkoolTone]

Originally posted by Khazul NuSkool - I know thats a good little comrpessor, great for studio use, but I wouldnt want to be manually fiddling with compressor settings over song transitions - hence suggestion for a digital compressor. Also if you go multi-band then you gain some automated control of the peak or rms levels independently at different frequencies. Other options that I heard people having for live use are these all-in-one maximizer type things - so long as it isnt one with huge through latency...

 

Hey to clarify, I wasn't suggesting to tweak setting over transitions. I meant for when he is starting out with it and getting settled. Once it's set, that should be it!

 

Sure a multiband could be cool, but where are you going to find a GOOD multiband on the cheap? I Don't think they're looking for a multi-thousand dollar solution. Sonics wise, I'd take an RNC over a triple C ANY day, but that's just me...

 

The RNC is a cheap, Great sounding piece that won't get in the way once set properly, and that's why I recommended it. Yes I'll admit I'm biased and love them, Own three!

[gdh]

I've had pretty good results synths -> mixer -> ART PAC -> Vox Tonelab -> PA.

[Khazul]

Originally posted by NuSkoolTone Sure a multiband could be cool, but where are you going to find a GOOD multiband on the cheap? I Don't think they're looking for a multi-thousand dollar solution.

 

I paid 150UKP for my TC Triple C - (220USD or so) second hand - hell you could get a finalizer 96K s/h for quite a decent price if you hunt around.

 

Anyway you dont need to have top studio grade gear for live use - let face it why else would loads of quite well off gigging bands be using Behringer stuff live - easy - its functional, convenient (its nearly all midi controllable), and you dont notice the differences much in a PA stack in an average PA environment and as for the audience - thundering bass, well balanced smooth sound and a good vibe will keep them happy

 

I wouldnt *generally* want much of their gear in the creative part of a signal chain however (even though I do have a v-amp and bass v-amp still and a couple of thier cheapo signal processors that I use when mates are around for a jam and dont want anything blown up by feedback etc), but its fine for keeping rough edges under control.