S90ES is WAAAY Complex

[GigMan]

Ok, so I know I just got the S90ES on Tuesday and I've not even RTFM from cover to cover yet but I did sit down on Wednesday to try to store some of the basic patches I like into the "Favorites" category in order to call them up quickly on my New Year's Eve gig - luckily a low-key bar gig, where I could fumble around on the S90ES and not get yelled at...

 

At the gig, the piano was great, organs were cool, Rhodes sounds were fantastic (Vintage '74, Soft R&B, Extra 80 or something... all really superb Rhodes) - was blowing thru my Motion Sound KP200S stereo amp.

 

But I've come to the realization that - and please correct me if I'm wrong - the workflow of setting up the S90ES is such that you have to audition all the sounds you could possibly like/use and then set them up in a way that you'll have access to them - ie, I like to layer organ sounds over piano... if I'm to do this I have to set up every frikkin' organ/piano combo I'd ever want - ahead of time?! Or splits for left-hand bass w/piano or Rhodes - I have to map that all out ahead of time as well?

 

On the Roland RD700GX, you press the two buttons of the two sound categories you want to hear together (REALLY BIG and easy to access buttons, I might add) and voila! instant layer - ie, press "Piano" and "Organ" together and whatever piano and organ patches were currently dialed in then play simultaneously yet you can control the amount of each with the sliders... this I LIKE. The Yamaha method blows chunks by comparison.

 

Not to say the S90ES isn't a powerful machine - it's damn powerful and sounds frikkin' sweet... but the interface is so complex, I just don't know if I have the patience or even desire to wade thru it to set it all up at home - I like to try out combinations (this jazz organ over that dark piano sound, these strings layered over this Rhodes) right on the gig... does the S90ES architecture completely prevent me from doing that?

 

Am I the only one intimidated by such a wonderful yet obscenely complex instrument? Should I just man up and stop whining? I will plan to spend some quality time w/Mr. S90ES in next few days & maybe I'll feel better about the whole thing - or maybe I'll decide to bring it back and go for the RD700GX instead... right now it's just giving me ageda...

 

I mean, I need it to be up and running soon - yet I can't devote my entire waking life to it. I have gigs, for which it must be up and running to the point where I can get around on it - but I play in bands that don't use set lists so I never know what's coming at me - I often can't afford any more than 5 or 6 seconds in between songs to hit buttons or turn a jog wheel.

 

The problem is, now that I've tasted the sweet freedom of new sounds I don't want go back to the old rig (Roland FP2)...

[eric]

Gary, I think you should consider "manning up" and working with it a bit, before trying to take it back to the store. It really is a wonderful instrument. I recommend that you find some of the Performances that are out of the box and start tweaking from those. Build yourself some templates that would be commonly used and dial those in just right. Once you have a stable (

 

As with any instrument, you can't expect full nirvana on day one, particularly if you have a lot of complex layouts needed for your gigs. But you can ease the pain by building things little by little.

 

I do recommend that you leverage Master mode as much as possible, because you will be in a position where sometimes you want that fancy Performance and then immediately thereafter you will need a single sound. Master mode is the place to do this. You can overwrite all those Masters with "pointers" to the sounds you need, whether they are Voices or Performances, plus you can configure some uber cool MIDI controller zones all from Master mode.

 

I know we told you to hook up with www.sninety.com where some more advice can be found.

 

Don't give up man. You have not had a Yamaha flagship like this before...it's gonna take time. Work at it a little bit. I would offer you my sounds, but unfortunately, the S90 Classic has a different file structure and the setups are not compatible across the Classic and the ES

 

Good luck!!!!

 

Regards,

Eric

[GigMan]

Yah eric - I signed up tonite on SNinety, you'll see me whining over there too... I guess if I look at that way, like you say - maybe set a goal of getting say, 10 nice Performances & then chip away at other stuff after that - it's not so daunting of a task.

 

Don't know if I can get that going before my gig Saturday nite though, which means I'll have to use the FP2 again... it's just frustrating - hard to go back to tap water (mediocre sounds), once you've drunk from the well (awesome S90ES sonic assault!)

[dan88z]

Another vote for Master mode- but I already told you about that in a PM!

 

Yes, it's a bit cumbersome to get splits and layers going. I have several banks of custom made performance setups I use for specific tunes- like a synth bass in the bottom 2 octaves, a hard hitting analog poly sound in the middle octave, and some strings in the next section up, all controlled by the faders to tweak their individual volumes. Or a string with a longer release and set to a higher octave but assigned to the lower end of the keyboard, with an acoustic piano on the rest of the board. I do a lot of performances where maybe the top 2 octaves are a sound I need for one section of the song, and the rest of the board is my standard piano or EP sound. You just gotta dive in and figure out what you need. Like eric says- there are a lot of performances in there that might be close to what you need and just need some tweaking, changing a sound here or there, or transposing the octave settings.

 

I sat down with mine for a couple days, listened to nearly every patch and performance, made a spreadsheet of those I liked or were usable for songs I play, and then assigned those patches and performances to programs in the master mode. Banks of pianos, EPs, strings/pads, leads, etc. All the bread and butter sounds I thought I'd need on a regular basis. From there I started getting into making the sounds for specific songs. The performance edit mode is layed out very well, and changing just about any parameter for any sound is right at your fingertips under the function keys.

 

It's pretty easy to change the sounds in a split or layer once you have the initial performance set up. (I'm going blind on this so bear with me, this might not be 100% correct....) In performance mode, hit the function key that is below "voice". That will change the screen to show you what voices make up the performance. Scroll to the voice you want to change and then you can hit the patch search or favorites button to call up a new sound for the slot that you highlighted. Simple!

 

Yeah, it's not as easy as the RD is, but the potential of the keyboard is about 100x what the RD can do. The RD is a digital piano. The S90ES is a top notch full blown synth. They are 2 different animals.

[dan88z]

I wanted to add- if you don't work with setlists, then you really need to get the master mode going, and then make a list of what patches are stored in what banks of the master mode. Organize them how it's efficient for you but make sure your bases are covered and you have a cheat sheet to look at. Make your base piano sound A1 and your base EP B1, that way you can always fall back to those with ease. After a while you'll start remembering where the other stuff is that you use a lot.

 

I'd be happy to share any of the patches I have with you- tell me what you are looking for and I probably have stuff set up, or close to what you'd need. I don't use any of the organs on the board since I have the Electro, but everything else is done on the Yammy.

[xmlguy]

The Nord Stage EX 88 is better suited for the type of music you do and how you want to use it. Take a close look at the panel controls and you'll probably see what I mean. Easy splits are just the start, but the organ and piano controls are probably the best for live tweaking. Unfortunately, the splits aren't very well thought out on the S90ES for live configuration. On the yamaha arrangers like my PSR-S900, you can do layers and splits with two button presses.

[eric]

 

The Nord Stage EX 88 is better suited for the type of music you do and how you want to use it. Take a close look at the panel controls and you'll probably see what I mean. Easy splits are just the start, but the organ and piano controls are probably the best for live tweaking. Unfortunately, the splits aren't very well thought out on the S90ES for live configuration. On the yamaha arrangers like my PSR-S900, you can do layers and splits with two button presses.

 

 

True, but the Stage does not handle rompler duties, unfortunately. As much as I love the Stage, a lot of the tunes I'm covering (and GigMan and Dan are doing) require a larger bag of tricks than the Stage can deliver.

[augerinn]

 

I sat down with mine for a couple days, listened to nearly every patch and performance, made a spreadsheet of those I liked or were usable for songs I play, and then assigned those patches and performances to programs in the master mode.

 

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that does this. I actually use an Access database, and include Category , song, and comments. Then, when I need, say, a Mellotron flute, my DB will tell me which instrument in my aresenal has the appropriate patch.

[xmlguy]

 

True, but the Stage does not handle rompler duties, unfortunately. As much as I love the Stage, a lot of the tunes I'm covering (and GigMan and Dan are doing) require a larger bag of tricks than the Stage can deliver.

 

 

I've given up the expectation of one keyboard that can do it all. Use the Stage for Stage things. Use a Rompler for Rompler things. Render unto Caesar what is Caesars.

[GigMan]

I'd be happy to share any of the patches I have with you- tell me what you are looking for and I probably have stuff set up, or close to what you'd need. I don't use any of the organs on the board since I have the Electro, but everything else is done on the Yammy.

 

Much appreciated, Dan!

[GigMan]

I've given up the expectation of one keyboard that can do it all. Use the Stage for Stage things. Use a Rompler for Rompler things. Render unto Caesar what is Caesars.

 

On some gigs, one kybd. has to do it all - therefore it has to have a bigger variety of sounds than the Nord Stage provides (strings, horns, mallets, etc...).

 

Or even if you use two 'boards (for me - S90ES w/a Korg Triton Le) - you want each one to be as versatile as possible, so that you can jump between them from song to song as you need to... ie, sometimes I'm playing something on my bottom kybd. and dialing up the right patch for the next song on the top keyboard (or vice versa)!

[Goofball Jones]

I've given up the expectation of one keyboard that can do it all. Use the Stage for Stage things. Use a Rompler for Rompler things. Render unto Caesar what is Caesars.

 

 

Yeah, I know. Everyone is sick of hearing about it I'm sure.

 

But I say stick it out. You JUST got the S90es a few days ago. What might seem unintuitive today may not be that way a few weeks from now. It's a complex beast to be sure, but really any advanced synth is complex. The ones that are easy and not complex also are the most shallow in what you can do with it.

 

I personally DO look for the one synth that can do it all as I don't have a ton of cash and quite frankly I couldn't get more than one due to other matters....which is why I'm looking at the PC3. It cuts the widest swath I belive....but I'm like you, I keep looking at the S90es also....and the RD700GX (though I don't like the feel of the texture of the keys).

 

Don't let the buyers remorse hit you hard. I know it's easy for us to say that, but give it time. I'm a lot like you. I take forever to make a decision and when I do and get the thing I'm always second guessing myself with "did I do the right thing" and look for every little problem as huge ones and as excuses to take it back. It drives my wife crazy.

[xmlguy]

For the widest range of capability, a digital piano alone wouldn't be very high on my list, compared to a workstation with rack modules. Motif XS Rack is cheaper than an S90ES, leaving room to put the difference towards a workstation like a used Fusion8HD or FantomX8. Not that I suggest dumping the S90ES right away while it's still within the return period. But you can't ignore how convoluted it is for setting splits and layers during a performance, if that's what you want to do.

[eric]

 

This seems like I'm rearranging things that should already be arranged (at the factory), though... ie, putting all Acoust. pianos in Master Bank A, EP's in Master Bank B. Doesn't make sense to me that I have to do it - but maybe that's a difference between a Stage Piano like the Roland RD700GX and a deeper machine like the S90ES - the 700GX has less synthesis power but is much better organized?

 

 

GigMan, I would not recommend that you spend time putting *ALL* the pianos into a Master bank, followed by *ALL* EPs, etc. You need to leverage the Master banks for your go-to gig sounds and not as a duplication of the internal memory. Do you think you would use 16 variations of acoustic piano during a gig? Probably not. Maybe 1 or 2 variations.

 

I recommend coming up with a strategy for what sounds you need immediately under your hands vs. specialized sounds only used one time per night and then save into Master slots accordingly. Here is an idea of how my S90 Classic Master banks and slots are being used.

 

Bank A: Filled with staples that I can go to somewhat generically. Top row 1-8 from left to right: Acoustic Piano, Rhodes, Phased Clav, Phased Rhodes, Piano/Strings layer, Analog Brass, CP80, Sweet Flute. Bottom row 9-16: MIDI setup to use S90 as lower manual for Electro, MIDI setup to blend S90 Piano w/Electro Rhodes or whatever, and so forth.

 

So I have all these sounds in Bank A that are like the "best of" most-used S90 sounds and MIDI controller settings. In Bank B, I start to get more song-specific and have 16 sounds that are all named after the songs (sometimes 2 slots per song, e.g. "Rock w/You 1" and "Rock w/You 2"). In each of these subsequent banks, I will typically save my favorite acoustic piano sound in slot 1, so I can always get to a piano sound quickly from any bank. I don't have every single slot of the 128 Masters leveraged, but most of them are in use. When I get to the later banks, like G-H, I have these set up for other bands that I sit in with, so when I'm doing those gigs, I know that I'll use Bank A for my staple/generic sounds and then hit Bank H for Rebel Yell, Melt w/You, Lips Like Sugar, etc.

 

This sounds like a lot of work, but it is very intuitive and once you get a Bank's worth of sounds set up, you'll start identifying what I described earlier as "templates," or setups that have a commonly used layer or split setting. You can then re-use those as you build new Performances and Master setups.

 

I also use the S90 to send patch changes to my Electro in a selective fashion as the songs dictate. For example, when I switch to Bank C as I see "Give It To Me" on the setlist, I quickly see that I have 2 sounds for this song. The first one is the analog synth sound used during the intro section and the second one is a phased Rhodes with 2 different layers of strings (real and synth strings) all with phasing. I usually play a huge organ sound on the Electro during parts of this song, so I have the Give It To Me 2 master set up to switch my Electro accordingly and that's one less maneuver I need to worry about and the Electro is ready.

 

Re: Organization from the factory. The sounds in the S90ES are actually organized and the easiest way to find them in sequence is by using the Category Search button (upper right hand corner of panel). You can use this at any time to quickly find sounds and put them into Performances as part of splits/layers or simply use them as stand-alone Voices.

[Bugzie]

Wow you read the whole manual, I'm impressed! I'm still on page 97 of my new XS8.

[Outkaster]

Gigman. Like I told you in the PM you made the right choice. As already said this a great board and I believe Yamaha is really back in the game with the S series. I even like the S-80 still. So many of these are used by pro's. As for the Rolands I don't see many in live rigs. I am sure it is a good board I just don't like how it sounds.

[GigMan]

GigMan, I would not recommend that you spend time putting *ALL* the pianos into a Master bank, followed by *ALL* EPs, etc. You need to leverage the Master banks for your go-to gig sounds and not as a duplication of the internal memory. Do you think you would use 16 variations of acoustic piano during a gig? Probably not. Maybe 1 or 2 variations. I recommend coming up with a strategy for what sounds you need immediately under your hands vs. specialized sounds only used one time per night and then save into Master slots accordingly. Here is an idea of how my S90 Classic Master banks and slots are being used. Bank A: Filled with staples that I can go to somewhat generically. Top row 1-8 from left to right: Acoustic Piano, Rhodes, Phased Clav, Phased Rhodes, Piano/Strings layer, Analog Brass, CP80, Sweet Flute. Bottom row 9-16: MIDI setup to use S90 as lower manual for Electro, MIDI setup to blend S90 Piano w/Electro Rhodes or whatever, and so forth. So I have all these sounds in Bank A that are like the "best of" most-used S90 sounds and MIDI controller settings. In Bank B, I start to get more song-specific and have 16 sounds that are all named after the songs (sometimes 2 slots per song, e.g. "Rock w/You 1" and "Rock w/You 2"). In each of these subsequent banks, I will typically save my favorite acoustic piano sound in slot 1, so I can always get to a piano sound quickly from any bank. I don't have every single slot of the 128 Masters leveraged, but most of them are in use. When I get to the later banks, like G-H, I have these set up for other bands that I sit in with, so when I'm doing those gigs, I know that I'll use Bank A for my staple/generic sounds and then hit Bank H for Rebel Yell, Melt w/You, Lips Like Sugar, etc. This sounds like a lot of work, but it is very intuitive and once you get a Bank's worth of sounds set up, you'll start identifying what I described earlier as "templates," or setups that have a commonly used layer or split setting. You can then re-use those as you build new Performances and Master setups. I also use the S90 to send patch changes to my Electro in a selective fashion as the songs dictate. For example, when I switch to Bank C as I see "Give It To Me" on the setlist, I quickly see that I have 2 sounds for this song. The first one is the analog synth sound used during the intro section and the second one is a phased Rhodes with 2 different layers of strings (real and synth strings) all with phasing. I usually play a huge organ sound on the Electro during parts of this song, so I have the Give It To Me 2 master set up to switch my Electro accordingly and that's one less maneuver I need to worry about and the Electro is ready. Re: Organization from the factory. The sounds in the S90ES are actually organized and the easiest way to find them in sequence is by using the Category Search button (upper right hand corner of panel). You can use this at any time to quickly find sounds and put them into Performances as part of splits/layers or simply use them as stand-alone Voices.

 

Right - good info... btw - I didn't literally mean put "ALL" the acoustic pianos on the machine in one bank, I just meant it seems strange to me to have to do this at all - even for the go to sounds... but maybe I'm just in the "Stage Piano" mode of thinking/workflow and if I'm going to keep the S90ES and tap its potential, I have to get that out of my head... GET OUT OF MY HEAD, YOU EASIER CONCEPT OF DOING THINGS THAT STAGE PIANOS PROVIDE!!

[eric]

GigMan, one other quick pointer if you are looking at the www.sninety.com forums...that forum is very lightly trafficked and you don't often get quick answers to questions over there. But the answers are extremely helpful and focused when you get them. I've found that searching archives on that forum has been very helpful. You may want to do a search by "eric" and you'll find me there...then limit your search to show all of my posts, where I've addressed (or asked about) some of the things you're trying to wrap your head around as a new S90 man.

[GigMan]

Gigman. Like I told you in the PM you made the right choice. As already said this a great board and I believe Yamaha is really back in the game with the S series. I even like the S-80 still. So many of these are used by pro's. As for the Rolands I don't see many in live rigs. I am sure it is a good board I just don't like how it sounds.

 

Aye, fair enough Ok -

How about I stop whining and get to work... oh, wait - have to take the dog to the vet, have company coming over in a few hours, promised to take the kids later to see "The Day the Earth Stood Still" - d'oh!

 

Hence my initial frustration - the S90ES is not really gig-ready until you do some prep work, as described nicely here by eric & dan88z. I guess I'm just so pleased w/finally buying the damn thing that it's a bitch to have to leave it home & not bring to gigs right away. We'll see - maybe I can work into the wee hours tonite and get a few Master Setups going, enough to get thru tomorrow's gig...

 

Thanks again to everyone for all the info, comments, help and suport.

[GigMan]

GigMan, one other quick pointer if you are looking at the www.sninety.com forums...that forum is very lightly trafficked and you don't often get quick answers to questions over there. But the answers are extremely helpful and focused when you get them. I've found that searching archives on that forum has been very helpful. You may want to do a search by "eric" and you'll find me there...then limit your search to show all of my posts, where I've addressed (or asked about) some of the things you're trying to wrap your head around as a new S90 man.

 

Thanx dude

[Goofball Jones]

Hence my initial frustration - the S90ES is not really gig-ready until you do some prep work, as described nicely here by eric & dan88z.

 

They are the best at getting people some help I've found. But really, what board is gig-ready without at least some prep work beforehand.

 

It's overwhelming sometimes I know, when I'm faced with something like this I often want to just chuck it and go with something simpler. But with something like the S90es I think it has so much depth to it that in the end you'll be thankful.

 

Good luck with everything.

[GigMan]

They are the best at getting people some help I've found. But really, what board is gig-ready without at least some prep work beforehand. It's overwhelming sometimes I know, when I'm faced with something like this I often want to just chuck it and go with something simpler. But with something like the S90es I think it has so much depth to it that in the end you'll be thankful. Good luck with everything.

 

The RRD700GX is completely gig-ready, right out of the box, as is (which is why I suffered instant buyer's remorse when realizing the complexity of the S90ES) - at least, enough to "get by" any gig (wedding/banquet/gar gig/mellow restaurant duo, whatever...). If you want to layer, split - boom, one or two button presses, you're done - no menu diving, no arcane combinations of buttons, function keys, etc... You could literally buy it, bring it to a gig, unbox it and start using it - it's that easy to use.

 

But I am really digging the S90's sounds & of course, I want to do more than just "get by" so I'm in it for the long haul & I am thankful just to have something new!

 

And yes, eric and dan88z are both excellent - great info w/out a lot of fluff. That should be the protocol for everyone here on this forum, actually: "Great info - without a lot of fluff."

[asynchro_nous]

I love my Motif XS7, but it's very clunky when it comes to moving between Voice and Performance mode.

 

Not to mention that it seems that there is a lack of cache for the machine to remember little edits if you're bouncing around between different effect insert changes, etc.

 

Yuck -- Yamaha really needs to get the workflow thing together.

[mate_stubb]

Had an S-90, didn't bond with it, sold it.

 

Bought a Nord Stage, love it, cover a complete gig with it.

 

Synth sounds are no problem, came up with a very decent mellotronish string sound, cajun accordian, picked bass, etc. If they want horn section sounds, they can blow me.

[Miket156]

Yep, Nord Stage is easy to use, but the number of sounds it has ARE limited. If you can do a complete gig with it, you don't need a lot of sounds. I suppose there are players that only need a few B&B sounds to gig with, but other players need a lot more, it depends on what you do.

 

Personally, I think the Nord Stage is expensive for what it does, yet the Nord Electro 2 is a bargain. Pick and choose.

 

Mike T.