S90ES is WAAAY Complex

[FifthElement]

I almost went for the S90ES but the small display and tricky interface was one of the reasons I didn't.

 

The touchview interface on my M50-88 is large, bright and can display everything on screen in one shot. Perfect for playng live as the controls you need are the most brightly lit thing around and right in front of you. If you need to change anything - just touch it.

 

Yes you still need to set up your custom combis (although the 100s of default combis are very useable right out of the box) and programs but it's so fast and easy.

 

Then there's those M3 sounds, the RH3 keybed action, the low weight .......

[mildbill]

 

The RRD700GX is completely gig-ready, right out of the box, as is (which is why I suffered instant buyer's remorse when realizing the complexity of the S90ES) - at least, enough to "get by" any gig (wedding/banquet/gar gig/mellow restaurant duo, whatever...). If you want to layer, split - boom, one or two button presses, you're done - no menu diving, no arcane combinations of buttons, function keys, etc... You could literally buy it, bring it to a gig, unbox it and start using it - it's that easy to use. ....

 

 

 

 

Sounds like ease of use is your top priority.

 

Maybe you should think about a return/swap.

[Tusks]

Gigman,

 

Here is what I do for splits and layers. In one of the user banks I set the first 16 patches to be "comping patches" ; (Acoustic piano, rhodes) etc. Then I use the next 16 sounds for "layer sounds" (b3, strings, pads, etc.)

 

Next I go to performance mode and simply set up two different performances, one a layer and the other a split. In each performance, you can add a patch from the first 16 patches and one from the second 16. Now if you want to swap out sounds just press one of the 16 buttons on the right hand side. This allows you swap sound on the fly with just two key presses: one to activate the sound you are toggling, and the other to make a selection (from the 16 choices). The slider will control volume of the individual sounds.

 

That's just the beginning. For more complexity you can add more layers and splits in your performances.

 

Jerry

[GigMan]

Sounds like ease of use is your top priority. Maybe you should think about a return/swap.

 

Actually best possible sounds are my priority with least possible learning curve a close second.

 

On the S90ES, sounds trump learning curve so I have get me lazy ass to work - ha ha!...

 

I am keeping it though - look at how many guys on this forum alone use the S90 & have been helpful in offering support tips and advice? I haven't seen Roland RD700GX users come out of the woodwork like these S90 termites have...

[mrcpro]

Gary I gig with Motif ES7 which has an almost identical interface.

 

To get started, I'd suggest something very simple like putting the presets that you like best in the first 16 User Voice and Performance slots. That's 32 sounds and should cover you 99% of the time.

 

If you need a split that's not covered in the presets I'd suggest setting it up in a Performance. Yamaha Performances are actually pretty easy to do... you may actually be able to set up a split if you do it in a Performance without the manual. About the only thing I can say that about on a Yamaha...

 

Being both a Roland Fantom and Yamaha Motif user there's no contest as to which brand's interface is easier to figure out, set up, and use.

 

As for myself, rather than Master I've got my Motif stage sounds organized into banks of Mixes so I can keep smooth program changes. For 20 years using Rolands I've been able to hold a sound with the sustain pedal while reaching up to make a program change, and not have the board cut the sound. I tried the Yamaha approach but just couldn't adapt. But they do give you that option if you use Mix mode. There's a similar mode on the S series but it's called something different, so you can do this too if you want down the road.

[GigMan]

Gary I gig with Motif ES7 which has an almost identical interface. To get started, I'd suggest something very simple like putting the presets that you like best in the first 16 User Voice and Performance slots. That's 32 sounds and should cover you 99% of the time. If you need a split that's not covered in the presets I'd suggest setting it up in a Performance. Yamaha Performances are actually pretty easy to do... you may actually be able to set up a split if you do it in a Performance without the manual. About the only thing I can say that about on a Yamaha... Being both a Roland Fantom and Yamaha Motif user there's no contest as to which brand's interface is easier to figure out, set up, and use. As for myself, rather than Master I've got my Motif stage sounds organized into banks of Mixes so I can keep smooth program changes. For 20 years using Rolands I've been able to hold a sound with the sustain pedal while reaching up to make a program change, and not have the board cut the sound. I tried the Yamaha approach but just couldn't adapt. But they do give you that option if you use Mix mode. There's a similar mode on the S series but it's called something different, so you can do this too if you want down the road.

 

Thank you Bill for validating my point - Roland's interface is simple/straightforward, Yammie's is not... maybe I'm not an idiot after all!

 

For tonite's gig (wedding) I'm going to be just working out of the Favorites, using patches that I like so far, that I've thrown in there - a bit primitive indeed but it will get me thru. I can always dial up a substitute sound on the Triton Le while I'm fiddling w/the S90ES. That's a bummer about the sound cutting out business... that is one thing the Kurzweil does nicely - allow one patch to persist if you sustain pedal it, while you dial up another. It sounds like the S90ES or Motifs do NOT have that capability?

 

If I have time in nxt. few hours I'll take another crack at setting up my signature "Organ layered over Piano or Rhodes" sound but the thing w/that is apparently I have to save it to User location where there are already some useable combinations - so I'll have to figure out which one to overwrite... for example, the very 1st Combination is "Wide River" - I kind of like that one, it's good for doodling when doing quiet dinner music as I do sometimes when the band takes a break (at a wedding reception) - it actually fits the Bruce Hornsby tune "The Way it Is" kind of, sort of...

 

So the point is, I can save some Combinations but in doing so I don't want to overwrite anything useable.

[JFN]

Hi GigMan, I just got my S90ES 2-3 months ago. The piano sound and desire for something a little different than the PC2X I have led me to the S90ES. Here's a few suggestions for when you set up your Performances that have worked well for me.

 

Get the Expression pedal and edit your Performances that use layers (Piano, Elec Piano, etc.) with a layer of strings, pad, etc. so that the pedal changes the pad voice but not the piano. I find this much more useful for live playing in that you can more easily make subtle changes like bringing the pad down coming out of chorus back into verse, or building a chorus, etc. Not having to use you hands to do this makes it much more convienent.

 

If you use organ programs, you might consider adding another foot switch and assigning it to the Mod Wheel function. This allows you to change leslie simulator from low to hi hands-free. I have a post on Sninety.com describing how to do this. You should be able to find it with a search.

 

Another use for the expression pedal, I use a lot of rhodes / organ splits. Assign the pedal to control just the organ volume so you can "ride" it during the song without affecting the rhodes volume.

 

Hope you find this helpful and hang in there with your board. While I too liked the basic sounds in the RD700GX, I'm not sure you would be able to do the sort of things I described above with it.

 

John

[mrcpro]

 

That's a bummer about the sound cutting out business... that is one thing the Kurzweil does nicely - allow one patch to persist if you sustain pedal it, while you dial up another. It sounds like the S90ES or Motifs do NOT have that capability?

 

 

Yeah they do. But not in normal modes. If you set your sounds up in a Mix then you get this feature. But don't go there just yet. There's some things that you are probably not going to want to learn yet like effects allocation schemes that have to be done in mix modes.

 

Like I said Yamaha does not make things simple if they can avoid it. It's a good thing their boards sound good.

[mrcpro]

OK after thinking about it I guess I'm not being fair to Yamaha because they have one mode that's easier than Roland to set up: Performance. But that only applies if you aren't doing much. If all you want to do is split or layer a couple (or up to four) voices it's very simple to do on a Yamaha. Most players wouldn't even have to crack the manual.

 

If it's more complex than that then Roland takes over.

[GigMan]

OK after thinking about it I guess I'm not being fair to Yamaha because they have one mode that's easier than Roland to set up: Performance. But that only applies if you aren't doing much. If all you want to do is split or layer a couple (or up to four) voices it's very simple to do on a Yamaha. Most players wouldn't even have to crack the manual. If it's more complex than that then Roland takes over.

 

On the RD700GX it's two button presses to layer two sounds together - ie, Piano & Organ, Piano & Strings... that's it. I'm not seeing how Yammie makes it easier than that...

[mrcpro]

No it's not that simple. But what I was referring to is a savable configuration with level, EQ, and effects settings for each part. That is simpler on a Motif than a Fantom. But I don't know how much editing is involved on an RD for a setup like that.

[Guitarsoul34]

How's the S90 Yamaha learning curve treating you Gigman?

[Goofball Jones]

How's the S90 Yamaha learning curve treating you Gigman?

 

Last I heard, he seemed to have talked himself into going with a 700GX.

[SurrealMcCoy]

As an owner of a Yamaha S90, along with performing on a Roland RD700 for the past several years.......I'll agree with a lot that's been mentioned about both boards. It took me awhile to dial in my S90 for optimum stage performance vs. instantly being able to configure a multitude of quick splits, layers, etc. for onstage performance w/ the Roland.

I guess I just find the RD700 (not SX or GX) voices to be thin and somewhat limited. While my S90 voices are greater and more complex, I find the overall voices a bit "heavy" on my ears. Hence, I'm really taking a closer look at the Kurzweil PC3x. So please tell me........what's the downside of the Kurz in relation to the S90ES & RD700GX..?

[eric]

As an owner of a Yamaha S90, along with performing on a Roland RD700 for the past several years.......I'll agree with a lot that's been mentioned about both boards. It took me awhile to dial in my S90 for optimum stage performance vs. instantly being able to configure a multitude of quick splits, layers, etc. for onstage performance w/ the Roland. I guess I just find the RD700 (not SX or GX) voices to be thin and somewhat limited. While my S90 voices are greater and more complex, I find the overall voices a bit "heavy" on my ears. Hence, I'm really taking a closer look at the Kurzweil PC3x. So please tell me........what's the downside of the Kurz in relation to the S90ES & RD700GX..?

 

 

Alan, they are all GREAT, GREAT boards. We are so fortunate in this era as keyboard players to have so many fabulous choices. I've owned all of the above and find different things I like about each, but not one of them is the clear winner from an objective standpoint. It is subjective and really dependent on the priorities of the player. This is a very casual post and not trying to capture detailed points of each board, but here are the high points and opportunities of each as I see them.

 

Yamaha S90/S90ES

Pros: Excellent keyboard action with aftertouch. Huge sample ROM and plenty of PLG board expansion capability. Very respectable MIDI controller capabilities. Great piano sounds right out of the box.

Cons: S90ES is super wide and makes transport difficult. User interface takes a little while to digest and requires a fair amount of offline work to build gig sounds.

 

Roland RD700GX

Pros: Fantastic ivory feel action with escapement. Best feeling stage piano action in its class (my subjective opinions). Solid piano sounds, good EPs and aux sounds. Very easy to layer and split sounds on the fly during performance. SRX expandability. 2 MIDI outs.

Cons: No aftertouch. Aux sounds a little bit dated.

 

Kurzweil PC3/PC3x

Pros: Great engine with rompler sounds, VAST and VA1 synth capabilities. Outstanding MIDI controller capability. 9 faders. Solid build quality. Manufacturer support is personalized and very responsive to user needs.

Cons: OS is still growing and not all bugs worked out. Piano sounds require tweaking to come up to level of Roland and Yamaha peers (still not quite there, in my opinion). ROM not as expansive as Yamaha. Similar to Yamaha, requires a fair amount of offline programming to prep for gigs.

 

After writing that very brief summary, I feel like all 3 are pretty balanced when you consider pros and cons. I recommend that anyone in the market for this kind of gear needs to go out and play all 3 before making a decision.

[SurrealMcCoy]

I really appreciate your concise review of the three. I forgot to mention that I used to own a Kurz PC2r, and while I really dug the voice accuracy within many of the samples...I found the overall sound somewhat lacking as far as onstage projection vs. my S90. From what I've read, the PC3 is somewhat more "beefier"......

 

Hopefully, prior to arriving at NAMM....I can find a store or two in LA that might have a PC3x, S90ES, & RD700GX to demo......

[Goofball Jones]

 

Alan, they are all GREAT, GREAT boards. We are so fortunate in this era as keyboard players to have so many fabulous choices. I've owned all of the above and find different things I like about each, but not one of them is the clear winner from an objective standpoint. It is subjective and really dependent on the priorities of the player. This is a very casual post and not trying to capture detailed points of each board, but here are the high points and opportunities of each as I see them. Yamaha S90/S90ES Pros: Excellent keyboard action with aftertouch. Huge sample ROM and plenty of PLG board expansion capability. Very respectable MIDI controller capabilities. Great piano sounds right out of the box. Cons: S90ES is super wide and makes transport difficult. User interface takes a little while to digest and requires a fair amount of offline work to build gig sounds. Roland RD700GX Pros: Fantastic ivory feel action with escapement. Best feeling stage piano action in its class (my subjective opinions). Solid piano sounds, good EPs and aux sounds. Very easy to layer and split sounds on the fly during performance. SRX expandability. 2 MIDI outs. Cons: No aftertouch. Aux sounds a little bit dated. Kurzweil PC3/PC3x Pros: Great engine with rompler sounds, VAST and VA1 synth capabilities. Outstanding MIDI controller capability. 9 faders. Solid build quality. Manufacturer support is personalized and very responsive to user needs. Cons: OS is still growing and not all bugs worked out. Piano sounds require tweaking to come up to level of Roland and Yamaha peers (still not quite there, in my opinion). ROM not as expansive as Yamaha. Similar to Yamaha, requires a fair amount of offline programming to prep for gigs. After writing that very brief summary, I feel like all 3 are pretty balanced when you consider pros and cons. I recommend that anyone in the market for this kind of gear needs to go out and play all 3 before making a decision.

 

 

Eric, from what I understand you have the 76 key PC3 without the weighted keys, yes? Have you had a chance to test the PC3x 88 weighted key version in relation to the action of the S90es? I'd be curious to see how they compare.

[eric]

I have played the PC3x for 30 min at NAMM in 2008. So I don't have a full review under my fingers. I can say that the action is at parity with the S90/S90ES. Perhaps a tad lighter. Not a differentiator one way or the other, based on my experience.

 

Alan (Surreal McCoy), please reach out to me via PM and give me your cell and email info. I'll be at NAMM this week and would love to meet you.

 

Regards,

Eric

[Guitarsoul34]

I don't have nearly the same experience Eric does with keyboards, but from trying the S90 and PC3X out, IMO the S90 has a better action. The PC3X feels a little more light and slightly plasticky compared to the S90-ES. Though I guess the lighter feel could be a plus for some people as this is all opinion, but I like the slightly heavier, weighted feel as it is more like an acoustic-piano.

[GigMan]

Last I heard, he seemed to have talked himself into going with a 700GX.

 

I love the sounds of the S90ES but hate the interface (which spazzed me out completely tonite at a wedding gig)... and I REALLY hate transporting it! The SKB case I got is so freakin' big it tends get away from me when I'm rolling it I think I actually hurt my back hauling it tonite - not a good sign, as it is only the 3rd gig I've used it on.

 

I have actually decided I'll give it 6 months - if I'm not "at ease" and "at one" w/the S90ES (interface, programming, hauling it around & up my basement stairs) by the end of June, early July... then it'll be time to sell the damn thing and go for the Roland RD700GX or maybe even it's lightweight little brother, the RD300GX.

 

BTW, the action is super - just fantastic. Although Roland's RD700GX action was even better. The PC3X action is a slightly lighter - not horrible, just not quite as meaty.

[GigMan]

Alan, they are all GREAT, GREAT boards. We are so fortunate in this era as keyboard players to have so many fabulous choices. I've owned all of the above and find different things I like about each, but not one of them is the clear winner from an objective standpoint. It is subjective and really dependent on the priorities of the player. This is a very casual post and not trying to capture detailed points of each board, but here are the high points and opportunities of each as I see them. Yamaha S90/S90ES Pros: Excellent keyboard action with aftertouch. Huge sample ROM and plenty of PLG board expansion capability. Very respectable MIDI controller capabilities. Great piano sounds right out of the box. Cons: S90ES is super wide and makes transport difficult. User interface takes a little while to digest and requires a fair amount of offline work to build gig sounds. Roland RD700GX Pros: Fantastic ivory feel action with escapement. Best feeling stage piano action in its class (my subjective opinions). Solid piano sounds, good EPs and aux sounds. Very easy to layer and split sounds on the fly during performance. SRX expandability. 2 MIDI outs. Cons: No aftertouch. Aux sounds a little bit dated. Kurzweil PC3/PC3x Pros: Great engine with rompler sounds, VAST and VA1 synth capabilities. Outstanding MIDI controller capability. 9 faders. Solid build quality. Manufacturer support is personalized and very responsive to user needs. Cons: OS is still growing and not all bugs worked out. Piano sounds require tweaking to come up to level of Roland and Yamaha peers (still not quite there, in my opinion). ROM not as expansive as Yamaha. Similar to Yamaha, requires a fair amount of offline programming to prep for gigs. After writing that very brief summary, I feel like all 3 are pretty balanced when you consider pros and cons. I recommend that anyone in the market for this kind of gear needs to go out and play all 3 before making a decision.

 

Eric is spot on here - they are all very good - I can say firsthand, as I spent hours playing all 3 on Dec. 30th and wound up buying the S90ES, because I was digging the acoustic piano sound and I knew that a lot of guys use the S90 & S90ES...

[Guitarsoul34]

Gig, is the major difference between the 300GX and the 700GX the upgrade in action, more sounds, and the wheel to more easily cycle through the patches?

[Miket156]

Quote by gigman:

 

"I love the sounds of the S90ES but hate the interface (which spazzed me out completely tonite at a wedding gig)... "

 

The ES series is really a deep board. If you think the S90ES is convoluted, you should try the Motif ES, which has a sampler as well as a sequencer. Lots of fun trying to get use too. The thing is, what you put in, you will get out. The ES Master Mode can be set up to access all the B&B sounds you need for gigs, but you do need to spent some time setting them up ahead of time. I suggest making a list of what you use, where you split the KB, and go through them one at a time. With Master Mode, it really doesn't matter WHERE the sounds are in Voice or Performance mode. You can place them where you want in the Master Mode so you can walk through them and put them in a order you find easy to remember. You can also have any number of Master Mode Banks you want, just save them off to a USB Drive and load them up before a gig. that said, I would be surprised that more than one bank of Master Mode setups isn't enough.

 

Hang in there, its worth putting the time in too. I can't help you on the size/weight issue.

 

Mike T.

[GigMan]

Gig, is the major difference between the 300GX and the 700GX the upgrade in action, more sounds, and the wheel to more easily cycle through the patches?

 

Yes - and one less slider... at least, those are the main differences, for me. The scroll wheel is nice - S90ES has it also.

 

The 300GX weighs only 36 lbs. 3 oz. as opposed to 55 lbs. 2 oz. for the 700GX. The footprint is almost exactly the same (HxWxD), w/the 300GX being slightly less deep. They're both about 3 in. shorter in width than the S90ES, so I'm guessing even though the 700GX is less heavier than the Yammie by about 5 lbs., it's probably less bulky, maybe easier to transport, I dunno.

 

I declare a jihad on my S90ES - I go to war w/it for 6 months... if I emerge victorious, I keep it. If not - I salute it as the victor and sell it.

[GigMan]

Quote by gigman: "I love the sounds of the S90ES but hate the interface (which spazzed me out completely tonite at a wedding gig)... " The ES series is really a deep board. If you think the S90ES is convoluted, you should try the Motif ES, which has a sampler as well as a sequencer. Lots of fun trying to get use too. The thing is, what you put in, you will get out. The ES Master Mode can be set up to access all the B&B sounds you need for gigs, but you do need to spent some time setting them up ahead of time. I suggest making a list of what you use, where you split the KB, and go through them one at a time. With Master Mode, it really doesn't matter WHERE the sounds are in Voice or Performance mode. You can place them where you want in the Master Mode so you can walk through them and put them in a order you find easy to remember. You can also have any number of Master Mode Banks you want, just save them off to a USB Drive and load them up before a gig. that said, I would be surprised that more than one bank of Master Mode setups isn't enough. Hang in there, its worth putting the time in too. I can't help you on the size/weight issue. Mike T.

 

Aye - thx Mike... but now some here have said, "Set up Performances" and some have said, "Use Master mode..." too many damn choices.

 

Another problem is - I used the same few mediocre patches for so long on the other 76 & 88 key 'boards I've had (Ensoniq KS32 & Roland FP2), that now my brain is on overload w/all these new great sounds & just figuring out which ones are good to use is a daunting task - 'cause there's so many good ones!

 

The organs & EP's alone have a multitude of quality patches... I know you organ afficianados probably aren't that impressed w/ROMpler organ sounds (those that use Nord Electro, Korg CX3, Hammond XK1, Roland VK8, Voce modules, etc...) but I'm digging the S90ES organs - they're an upgrade from what I had!

 

I took the day off today as I knew I'd be getting home late from a wedding gig that was far away last nite, so I hope to spend some quality time w/the manual to get a better overall view of that magnificent beast known as S90ES!! (say in real BIG voice, like shouting fr. a mountaintop)