Members Brian Marshall Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by TIKIROCKER You could make that argument but thats not my position at all ... the only thing I am championing is authenticity and the potency and power of a direct experience and not an apropriated simulacra. ok, so it comes down to authenticity? So you are saying that cobain was not an authentic songwriter. I mean you can trace the sex pistols to the ramones, the ramones to the beach boys, the beachboys to a number of earlier artists? what does it all mean? and why should i care? and just to let you know in the states the undergound does not typically come from the middle class. Living in the states is much different than AUS as far as media and radio goes. Also here in the states, nirvanas rise was actually pretty slow. Nevermind actually rose to the top slowly, and Im sure Geffen {censored} his pants when he realized what had happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIKILOCKEDOUT Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by jcn37203 It seemed like that was your whole impetus. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from and where you're going and what I have to do with it. I'm not trying to insult you, I don't even see what would be insulting about that. Ok, I can dig that, but you need to understand that the pecking order and superiority bit is your own paradigm not mine ... it is not the impetus for my position. I am talking about spectacle, semiotics, authenticity, direct experiential involvement in a movement vs similacra ... those things you attribute are minutae and as I said not part of my own argument at all; these are petty details not the big picture. I was trying to address both elements at the same time as they came up but discussions such as these are very difficult to keep track of in this medium and as I said earlier should we have had two hours face to face and a bottle of something warming I am certain of a better result. Your points as you just explained them are clear and concise, I wish you'd said them like that two hours ago. Well I assumed we were above fearing deeper statements and that a sane discussion would ensue in good spirit ... that was my vibe throughout actually. You also made a bunch of sweeping statements early on which left me little or no choice but to answer in like kind; you laid allot on the table yourself to begin with. I still think your attitude in a couple of the posts was condescending, which is not an attitude I respond well to. I can't control your perception of my words, if you knew me you'd know better ... as I said before it's difficult to get into these things without a face to face. Personally I don't respond well to being emphatically told there's no such thing as an original thought ... sorry but thats something I will never agree with. I'm happy for you to believe what you want but prepare for the fact that others may not subscribe with equal vigour. There is ample evidence of this throughout the forum, I'll argue till I'm blue in the face, as long as there is mutual respect for ideas. Tell me I'm wrong, fine. Don't tell me I'm beyond being right. I get it ... whether your right or wrong for you is not my concern but when your wrong with regard to myself thats when I step up ... this is where I'm coming from. It's not about you, it's about me. Thats the angle you take with a child. "Because I said so", "Because you're too young to understand", "You'll understand when you're older". There is no way I see to interpret that than pecking order. Again I hate to say it but if you don't feel like a child then you would have no reason to feel in any way threatened by some imaginary pecking order ... it's in your head thats all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIKILOCKEDOUT Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Brian Marshall ok, so it comes down to authenticity? . Yes, but allot more than that ... it wasn't that Cobain wasn't authentic in what he was writing but the spectacle that occured around this and the apropriation rendered it by mass media in-authentic. I'm not going to get into this allover again though, I've said it all above. There is an inherent pre-requisite angle from which this kind of thing has been largely understood and expressed by movements such as the Situationists, Dadaist and people like Baudrillard. I can't get into it here ... it's way too time consuming. The essense is the essense ... Simulacra is the poison in the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by TIKIROCKER Yes, but allot more than that ... it wasn't that Cobain wasn't authentic in what he was writing but the spectacle that occured around this and the apropriation rendered it by mass media in-authentic. I'm not going to get into this allover again though, I've said it all above. There is an inherent pre-requisite angle from which this kind of thing has been largely understood and expressed by movements such as the Situationists, Dadaist and people like Baudrillard. I can't get into it here ... it's way too time consuming. The essense is the essense ... Simulacra is the poison in the water. well yeah, this goes all the way back to the age of enlightenment. I understand the argument that you are trying to make, and think the cycles you see are just inherent in modern culture... I hated nirvana when they got popular... not because of the music, but because everyone liked them... after a long long time i realized that was stupid... listening to a song does not affiliate you with a band OR their fans in any real way, so why not listen? my thoughts on it anyways. I can tell by the language that you are a smart guy, but i think a lot of the stuff you wront in previous pages was a little unfocused for a lot of us to follow. someone 15 years your senior could make the same argument about the sex pistols and where they came from. I also think if you understood american pop culture at that time better it might change your opinion Then again the movement is NOT the music. I can listen to the beatles, and the sex pistols, and enjoy both with out any backstory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIKILOCKEDOUT Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Brian Marshall well yeah, this goes all the way back to the age of enlightenment. I understand the argument that you are trying to make, and think the cycles you see are just inherent in modern culture... Good enough. I hated nirvana when they got popular... not because of the music, but because everyone liked them... after a long long time i realized that was stupid... listening to a song does not affiliate you with a band OR their fans in any real way, so why not listen? my thoughts on it anyways. I didn't hate them and I was able to listen to them but it just came across as Muzak to me ... a kind of underground faux Muzak brought to you by the Spectacle. Cobain was a pawn, he was semi aware that he was being used as the drug of choice at the time which is vaguely ironic really. I had no real reaction to then artistically, my issue was about what their meaning was socially and culturally on a broader scale. I am fully aware that allot of people are going be like WTF! to my issue ... who thinks in those terms? I do ... my girlfriend is a Phd in Sociology so we deal in this currency a fair bit. I can tell by the language that you are a smart guy, but i think a lot of the stuff you wront in previous pages was a little unfocused for a lot of us to follow. Fair enough but to be fair the discussion was allover the place, I was merely trying to address the broad strokes as they came my way and was in some cases feilding more than one discussion on different levels ... I did address no more than was laid before me. someone 15 years your senior could make the same argument about the sex pistols and where they came from. I also think if you understood american pop culture at that time better it might change your opinion Sure, I'm not arguing that ... I wasn't saying Punk was the the beginning but I was saying that Punk was the immediate reference point for Cobain and what followed with Grunge ... at the very least Punk had an authentic underground whose influence is still being felt to this day. Please see Subculture by Hebdige for a deeper discussion of these aspects. Then again the movement is NOT the music. I can listen to the beatles, and the sex pistols, and enjoy both with out any backstory. That depends on the movement my friend .. look at the Beats ... Jazz was imperative, look at the Flappers in the 20's, the music was inherent. The 60's counter culture and the Rasta's would argue that Dub, Ska and Reggae are as much a sacrament as sound. Being able to listen to different types of music doesn't really have any bearing on the validity or potency of a movement, it just says you can listen to different kinds of music from different movements. Thats the tabula rasa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fingermush Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by TIKIROCKER I don't think in Killing Jokes case it does ... they are fairly well recognised as being the progenitors of the Industrial scene and they sure as hell didn't sound like anybody else in 79,80,81 and on ... Two Bands:two albums. Chrome- '78-'83 AnthologySisters Of Mercy-Some Girls Wander By Mistake Oh and what did Killing Joke have to do with industrial? Was is the drumming on a few tracks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIKILOCKEDOUT Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Fingermush Two Bands:two albums.Chrome- '78-'83 AnthologySisters Of Mercy-Some Girls Wander By MistakeOh and what did Killing Joke have to do with industrial? Was is the drumming on a few tracks? They are considered by many to be the progenitors of the industrial sound ... listen to the first two albums, it's pretty clear. I believe Swans are owed some due also but they were later by 3 years or so with Filth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 music can be a rallying point of a movement, but it is NOT the movement. I understand all the arguments about the 20's, but the truth is the music was there before the fassion, and move movement. If you find it boring, i understand... i feel that way about some highly respected 80's punk bands. I should also note that nirvana didnt call themselves grunge... the considered them selves a simple punk band, and they never claimed to be any more original than anyone else.... but they did have some unlikely roots that thier 'peers' did not share. I also realize that the HC effects forum really isnt the place to write an essay. nuff said there. I still dont feel like reading books about pop music in general. No matter where a song comes from, when you hear it you either like it or you dont. The great thing is there's lots of music out there, you just gotta find the stuff you like.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Aster Blistok Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Brian Marshall but NEVER thought that cheerleaders, metalheads, and black people would be listening to it in 3 months. what do cheerleaders usualy listen to?I never cared too much for Nirvana when they were on the top. However, I was already familiar with sub-pop scene before Nirvana broke into mainstream and prefered Mudhoney and Tad. I was much more into early 90s noise-rock, neo-psychedelia and so-called indie bands like Pixies, Fugazi and Husker Du. Does this make me snob, I don't know, I just didn't care for them then.Later, when hype has gone I listened Nirvana albums with more attention and I can say that they were a great band after all.But second generation of grungers (Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains, Stone Temple Pilots, ect.) was complete crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Aster Blistok what do cheerleaders usualy listen to? at the time i think cheerleaders were listening to bel biv devo... the rejects from new eddition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fingermush Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by TIKIROCKER They are considered by many to be the progenitors of the industrial sound ... listen to the first two albums, it's pretty clear. I believe Swans are owed some due also but they were later by 3 years or so with Filth. lies, lies, lies maybe, they had some influence on the second-wave industrial stuff, I'll give you that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIKILOCKEDOUT Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Brian Marshall music can be a rallying point of a movement, but it is NOT the movement. I understand all the arguments about the 20's, but the truth is the music was there before the fassion, and move movement. I dig and we could go in ever increasing circles over this point which I shall simply avoid by agreeing in the main ... I see a point though where individuation and the music of a movement can become deeply intwined though and we know that individuals in enough numbers make a movement. Some things build and are in the air and water before a scene appears but again this does not mean the movement doesn't exist but is rather in that sublime period of perfection beyond the reach of the spectacle ... later to be apropriated, commodified and identified; untimately nullified and pressed back into the earth. If you find it boring, i understand... i feel that way about some highly respected 80's punk bands.Indeed, I wasn't a fan of everything that carried a label ... either. I should also note that nirvana didnt call themselves grunge... the considered them selves a simple punk band, and they never claimed to be any more original than anyone else.... but they did have some unlikely roots that thier 'peers' did not share.As I said, it was their meaning that I objected to, I have not argued anything else regarding them. The biggest problem was not so much Nirvana but the media and their fans ... thats the beast that needed slaying. I also realize that the HC effects forum really isnt the place to write an essay. nuff said there.Indeed ... I still dont feel like reading books about pop music in general. No matter where a song comes from, when you hear it you either like it or you dont.Thats fine .. Subculture isn't about Pop music but contains very intetesting discussions on subculture and the sociology of same ... further reading only if you were interested. As for songs, sure ... on a purely consumer level I agree you hear a song, like it or not. On an artistic level it's a whole other kettle of fish ... I listen to music from an artistic persepctive I guess. The great thing is there's lots of music out there, you just gotta find the stuff you like.... No doubt ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fourth Floor Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 I like this discussion a lot but...Nirvana were a pop band. Plain and simple. Kurt wrote some good tunes.I like Drain You. But In Utero is a superior album.Teen Spirit was in a way my generation's Wild Thing. It was one of the first songs learnt in the garage as a early teenager with a full band (you know, you go 'wow, we played a whole song all the way through'). You can ebate the relative merits of where the music has come from but if you were at school in 91-92 you can tell something big was going on. Kids were passing around walkmans with cassettes of nevermind going you have to check this out or singing Lithium. It was a good time for kids to be getting into music. I don't know what the kids a few years later had but Music store guitarists went from playing Stairway and Smoke on the water to Come As You Are and Enter Sandman to Dammit to - I don't know what the current easy to play tunes are. Point is, Teen Spirit is our generation's Wild Thing or Stairway or More Than a Feeling. - doesn't really matter what came before but if it sold a few more Pixies albums that woul dmake it happy.Heard a Moog version of Teen Spirit this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Seth Carmody Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by MasterOfSolos This thread has prompted me to put Incesticide on Verse chorus verse has always been my favourite, the version that was meant to be on In Utero, and was released on some sort of CD compilation thingy that I remember not a thing about.. That's 'No Alternative'. That's the only rare Nirvana CD I kept when I sold them all a few years back. It was also a 'secret' unlisted track.For me, favourite song would be HSB or On a Plain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Thats fine .. Subculture isn't about Pop music but contains very intetesting discussions on subculture and the sociology of same ... further reading only if you were interested. As for songs, sure ... on a purely consumer level I agree you hear a song, like it or not. On an artistic level it's a whole other kettle of fish ... I listen to music from an artistic persepctive I guess. i was using pop music in a much broader sense than you probably think of it... also, subculture is still popculture in a broad sense if it is recognized, or even broadly known of. look back to the enlightenment again... subculture goes mainstream, although over a much longer period of time... just because it went mainstream, is it any less important... i would argue it was even more important, because it basically erased what came before it. explain what you mean by listening from an artistic perspective? im not sure i understand what you mean exactly... does this mean you have rules about what you can like beyond what your ears hear in the moment? I think picking appart pop art like its mozart is rediculous.... but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Fourth Floor I like this discussion a lot but... Nirvana were a pop band. Plain and simple. Kurt wrote some good tunes. but who istn a pop band? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Seth Carmody Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by TIKIROCKER The problem is blatant ripping off ... Come as your are is just a total rip off of 80's. Yeah, i've heard that riff and it's very similar. KillingJoke tried tosue from memory, but weren't able to win a claim. I remember hearing that Nirvana's defense was that they had no knowledge that 80s existed, but Killing Joke claimed Nirvana sent them a Christmas card one year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIKILOCKEDOUT Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Brian Marshall i was using pop music in a much broader sense than you probably think of it... Well you said Pop Music not Pop culture perse' ... they are related but not the same thing. look back to the enlightenment again... subculture goes mainstream, although over a much longer period of time... just because it went mainstream, is it any less important... i would argue it was even more important, because it basically erased what came before it. Well we live in very different times ... the monks of the age weren't glued to the Popes cable channel 24 hours a day and running out to buy the latest Nike sandals brought in from Greece. You can't compare the impact and meaning of signs, symbols and events in the 21st century with the age of Englightenment ... you just can't. Mass media and hyperealism were not an issue back in those times and the authentic and direct experience were far more the norm than now. I have no argument regarding the importance of the Enlightenment as I don't really see it's relevence to the problems of the current age of mass media and global villages generally. Silence was truly golden then. explain what you mean by listening from an artistic perspective? im not sure i understand what you mean exactly... does this mean you have rules about what you can like beyond what your ears hear in the moment? I think picking appart pop art like its mozart is rediculous.... but that's just me. What I mean by that is that I am constantly looking for music that challenges my ear, brings something new to my table ... I'm not impressed or won over by the usual commercial buttons that are pushed ad nauseum in commercial music. I prefer artistic and obscure music because it represents a positive progression of music as an art rather than a business or product. It's just the way I'm wired ... I'm not really interested in anything else. I guess I'm a bit of a purist and bohemian in the sense that I love music that is about itself alone and thats largely why I reject commercial music in the main. It's not about picking music apart but when you come from a family of musicians then you automtically do that without thinking ... you don't pick but you analyse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIKILOCKEDOUT Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Seth Carmody Yeah, i've heard that riff and it's very similar. KillingJoke tried tosue from memory, but weren't able to win a claim. I remember hearing that Nirvana's defense was that they had no knowledge that 80s existed, but Killing Joke claimed Nirvana sent them a Christmas card one year. Yup ... I have a Rolling Stone interview where Cobain admits that Teen Spirit was him ripping on the Pixies Debaser ... he openly admits he was trying to do Debaser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted August 23, 2005 Members Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by TIKIROCKER Well you said Pop Music not Pop culture perse' ... they are related but not the same thing.Well we live in very different times ... the monks of the age weren't glued to the Popes cable channel 24 hours a day and running out to buy the latest Nike sandals brought in from Greece. You can't compare the impact and meaning of signs, symbols and events in the 21st century with the age of Englightenment ... you just can't. Mass media and hyperealism were not an issue back in those times and the authentic and direct experience were far more the norm than now. I have no argument regarding the importance of the Enlightenment as I don't really see it's relevence to the problems of the current age of mass media and global villages generally. Silence was truly golden then.What I mean by that is that I am constantly looking for music that challenges my ear, brings something new to my table ... I'm not impressed or won over by the usual commercial buttons that are pushed ad nauseum in commercial music. I prefer artistic and obscure music because it represents a positive progression of music as an art rather than a business or product. It's just the way I'm wired ... I'm not really interested in anything else. I guess I'm a bit of a purist and bohemian in the sense that I love music that is about itself alone and thats largely why I reject commercial music in the main. It's not about picking music apart but when you come from a family of musicians then you automtically do that without thinking ... you don't pick but you analyse. I used to be that way, and i realized afterwards it was totally voluntary. just from the list of band you posted earlier i would consider all of them that i have actually heard pop... in the broader sense... bauhaus is pop... or you could call it folk art... whatever... doesnt matter... they arent studdying it at consevatories, and wont be reading about it next to mozart... by the way i hate most higher art... i would rather look at water colors than van goh... listen to the beatles than bethoven. seems like you have a lot of pretenses you consider before hearing the first note... Im not saying that i dont have a few my self... ive just heard these same aruguments with a few words changed over and over... like buttrockers trying to tell me the cure was a bunch of fags... while they were listening to judas priest. my thing with the enlighenment wasnt about it a current problem, it was more about how a subculture will eventually replace the mainstream, or parts of it... it has been happening ever since people were allowed to express opinions... granted its a little bit of a stretch, but i do think its relevant... it lead ot a revolution, albiet a real one, and not a half hearted musical one. The coat tails of nirvana were totally poluted with in a couple years, and the term alternative had really lost all meaning to even the most sheltered ears... sad, but the first couple years of it were really cool in the states... it was like radio and record companies didnt know what to do... which was great. a little chaos to shake things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted August 23, 2005 Members Share Posted August 23, 2005 oh yeah, and by the way... at least here in the states nivana spread more by word of mouth than radio or media... at least initially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIKILOCKEDOUT Posted August 23, 2005 Members Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by Brian Marshall I used to be that way, and i realized afterwards it was totally voluntary.just from the list of band you posted earlier i would consider all of them that i have actually heard pop... in the broader sense... bauhaus is pop... or you could call it folk art... whatever... doesnt matter... they arent studdying it at consevatories, and wont be reading about it next to mozart... Well that's a little disingenuous, I made it very clear that the list I gave was contemporary 80's material ... back in 1979 Bauhaus were most certainly NOT pop and neither were half of the bands mentioned there. You certainly didn't hear half of those bands on the radio either. You can't cherry pick bands from then and hold them up to todays standards of music; you must contextualize them in their era. At the time they were way off the register and thats a plain fact. I didn't suggest that they were high art ( I'm not interested in high art at all actually ) but even at the time they were an expression of an Art School ethic which I liked very much and apreciated when compared to Rick Springfield. by the way i hate most higher art... i would rather look at water colors than van goh... listen to the beatles than bethoven. You have assumed that by art I am talking about high art which is not the case ... I am interested in the legitimate art ( which belongs to the independants ) scene in music and culture generally, not the established art of the galleries and the borgouise! This assumption is a huge mistake in your approach to interpreting my position. seems like you have a lot of pretenses you consider before hearing the first note... Why are they pretenses? Indeed they come naturally to me and are a normal part of the way I function as an artist myself. If I stop looking for the challenge, if I stop looking for the beautiful, challenging and new then I'm just a dead spirit consuming in the typical narcissistic fashion. I choose to interact and to be pro-active in my experience of art and culture as opposed to just being a garbage bin for the spectacle. You mistake active attention/analysis to/of the world around me for pretense which is again a misalignment of perception. I can understand how that might be because your paradigm is your paradigm ... it's just not mine. Im not saying that i dont have a few my self... ive just heard these same aruguments with a few words changed over and over... like buttrockers trying to tell me the cure was a bunch of fags... while they were listening to judas priest. Thats not my argument at all though, again you might have missed my position which is pretty clear. my thing with the enlighenment wasnt about it a current problem, it was more about how a subculture will eventually replace the mainstream, or parts of it... it has been happening ever since people were allowed to express opinions... granted its a little bit of a stretch, but i do think its relevant... it lead ot a revolution, albiet a real one, and not a half hearted musical one. I have no problem with metaphors and the Enlightenment being a tool for you to express a position which I understand, however It just doesn't apply to what happened in the 90's. The reason subculture will never replace the mainstream is because the moment subculture is assimilated into the mainstream by means of the Spectacle it ceases to have power and ceases to be a subculture ... by then it's just another tool/weapon by which the Spectacle achieves cultural dominance over the masses. The point of the Spectacle is to absorb anything and everything which is counter to itself and make it safe ... My bottom line is that Nirvana was the bridge for that process to invade the legitimate underground and commodify it once and for all ... something that had been happening already in a slower process during the 80's. Indeed it was like changing reels in a movie ( A'la Palahniuk ) ... the one is replaced by another and the movie goes on and nobody notices anything is different. Thats what happens ... but the ( so-called ) underground is now user friendly and visible everywhere. There is no underground in the global village of mass media, thats the problem. The coat tails of nirvana were totally poluted with in a couple years, and the term alternative had really lost all meaning Indeed, this is what the Spectacle seeks to achieve which is why Silence is Golden and the revolution will not be televised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members loner22 Posted August 23, 2005 Members Share Posted August 23, 2005 Dive Aneurysm France Farmer Wil Have Her Revenge On Seattle "I miss the comfort in being sad.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffdaddy Posted August 23, 2005 Members Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by jcn37203 So, is Cobain our Hendrix?By 'our', I mean the twenty and early thirty-somethings.Will his legend grow over time until he is deified, deservingly or not? No. As much as I love Cobain, he will never be Hendrix. The comparison is invalid. To answer the question posed in the thread title, In Bloom (just for the guitar solo), Drain You, and Blew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffdaddy Posted August 23, 2005 Members Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by loner22 "I miss the comfort in being sad.." A {censored}ing beautiful lyric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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